Bill Starks
State Researcher
imported post
Pointman wrote:
Pointman wrote:
+1
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Torch teams to patrol NYC subway
- Thread starter Flintlock
- Start date
BobCav
Founder's Club Member
imported post
All this reminds me of something I heard back in 1992. For over 40years my ex-father in law, now retired,was a refueling manager at Kennedy Airport in NYC.Over the years he met and became friendswith many pilots, some of them Aeroflot pilots. All of the Aeroflot folks back thenwere some form of KGB, that was just the way of things.
For years and years one particular pilot talked of his dreamofone day comingto America and living the American Dream. That is until Bill Clinton ran for office and Hillary began talking about Socialized Medecine and health care.He then told my ex FIL that he knew things about America back then that we couldn't possibly imagine and that if Clinton got in, he would never come toAmerica as he would set us on a roadthat even the Soviet Union wouldn't go down,eventually becoming worse than they ever were.
He never came.
All this reminds me of something I heard back in 1992. For over 40years my ex-father in law, now retired,was a refueling manager at Kennedy Airport in NYC.Over the years he met and became friendswith many pilots, some of them Aeroflot pilots. All of the Aeroflot folks back thenwere some form of KGB, that was just the way of things.
For years and years one particular pilot talked of his dreamofone day comingto America and living the American Dream. That is until Bill Clinton ran for office and Hillary began talking about Socialized Medecine and health care.He then told my ex FIL that he knew things about America back then that we couldn't possibly imagine and that if Clinton got in, he would never come toAmerica as he would set us on a roadthat even the Soviet Union wouldn't go down,eventually becoming worse than they ever were.
He never came.
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Pointman wrote:
Pointman wrote:
You can ask bohdi if I can shoot...... He has seen me throw some lead down range.LEO 229 wrote:
Given officers skill at aiming in general, I'll take my chances with civilians. ;p
Of course you're one of the exceptions, so I wouldn't be quite as worried.
imperialism2024
Regular Member
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Pointman wrote:
Pointman wrote:
Ooo burn!
unreconstructed1
Regular Member
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LEO 229 wrote:
LEO, to be quite honest I have always respected your advice ( for the most part) and found you to be quite an intelligent person. that is why I really6 don't understand this post.
In those few words, you have echoed the millions of gun grabbers out there who scream that a little piece of metal can turn an ordinary person into a sociopathic madman.
I would feel more secure in an area packed with armed people than I would being teh only armed person there, or there being no one there that was armed.
LEO 229 wrote:
LEO, to be quite honest I have always respected your advice ( for the most part) and found you to be quite an intelligent person. that is why I really6 don't understand this post.
In those few words, you have echoed the millions of gun grabbers out there who scream that a little piece of metal can turn an ordinary person into a sociopathic madman.
I would feel more secure in an area packed with armed people than I would being teh only armed person there, or there being no one there that was armed.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
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unreconstructed1 wrote:
unreconstructed1 wrote:
Plus, when lead flies, most people have enough sense to marry their belt buckle to the floor.
Thundar
Regular Member
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LEO 229 wrote:
LEO 229 wrote:
LEO 229 are you serious or are you just having fun with us? Just in case youwere serious, a question. If you are not comfortable with an armed populace and would prefer only properly trained and uniformed government agents to be armed, then why don't you live in one of those gun restricted utopias?
deepdiver
Campaign Veteran
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Men dressed and armed as those behind Ray Kelly do not belong in a regular patrolling police force in this nation. Those are images similar to those burned in my memory from the days of the Eastern Bloc. I am more afraid seeing police dressed and armed in that manner patroling a public area than I would be seeing every citizen in the area OCing. It is wrong headed and not where our nation needs to be going. I will not live in any city or community where it is acceptable.
Congratulations once again NYC - you have yet again handed the terrorists a victory far beyond any they could have ever expected to achieve against this nation from any armed conflict. Such a police force should never be tolerated by a free people. That it is says more about us than about any threat.
Men dressed and armed as those behind Ray Kelly do not belong in a regular patrolling police force in this nation. Those are images similar to those burned in my memory from the days of the Eastern Bloc. I am more afraid seeing police dressed and armed in that manner patroling a public area than I would be seeing every citizen in the area OCing. It is wrong headed and not where our nation needs to be going. I will not live in any city or community where it is acceptable.
Congratulations once again NYC - you have yet again handed the terrorists a victory far beyond any they could have ever expected to achieve against this nation from any armed conflict. Such a police force should never be tolerated by a free people. That it is says more about us than about any threat.
BobCav
Founder's Club Member
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It's still amazes me that America survived at all before the police departments were formed in the mid 1800's.
How was that possible? Oh yeah, responsible armed citizens! Those that fail to learn the lessons of history...
What a coincidence that these "anti-terror" teams have been deployed just after Shaprton vowed to shut down NYC after the Sean Bell incident and after Sharpton was recently arrested for protesting:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080508/ts_afp/uscrimepoliceprotest_080508053315
Perhaps NYC is merely redefining what a terrorist is.
It's still amazes me that America survived at all before the police departments were formed in the mid 1800's.
How was that possible? Oh yeah, responsible armed citizens! Those that fail to learn the lessons of history...
What a coincidence that these "anti-terror" teams have been deployed just after Shaprton vowed to shut down NYC after the Sean Bell incident and after Sharpton was recently arrested for protesting:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080508/ts_afp/uscrimepoliceprotest_080508053315
Perhaps NYC is merely redefining what a terrorist is.
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LEO229 got me thinking, how many people would shoot?
Assuming a terrorist will attack a crowded subway station, there should be 300 people present.
Only about 3% of the population will get carry permits (AACFI 2007), and fewer actually carry daily. So at most, 9 people will be carrying on average.
In a crowd, you can only see about 50 people surrounding you. 9 people seeing 50 people each is 450 people that can be seen by permit holders, so one or two people will see the terrorist. Let's wrongly assume the Constitution is properly observed, and no permits are required for open or concealed carry, a larger number of women decide they want to defend themselves against being raped or mugged, and more people carry permits, so two people see the terrorist at the same time. (I know, it's a stretch, but I'm trying to get enough people carrying so two people can draw their guns.)
So I changed the real numbers so two people carrying handguns actually have the ability to see the terrorist, and we'll assume he screams "death to infidels" so those two people look at him. The terrorist yells and presses "the button." How many people drew? Zero. Nobody had time.
LEO229 got me thinking, how many people would shoot?
Assuming a terrorist will attack a crowded subway station, there should be 300 people present.
Only about 3% of the population will get carry permits (AACFI 2007), and fewer actually carry daily. So at most, 9 people will be carrying on average.
In a crowd, you can only see about 50 people surrounding you. 9 people seeing 50 people each is 450 people that can be seen by permit holders, so one or two people will see the terrorist. Let's wrongly assume the Constitution is properly observed, and no permits are required for open or concealed carry, a larger number of women decide they want to defend themselves against being raped or mugged, and more people carry permits, so two people see the terrorist at the same time. (I know, it's a stretch, but I'm trying to get enough people carrying so two people can draw their guns.)
So I changed the real numbers so two people carrying handguns actually have the ability to see the terrorist, and we'll assume he screams "death to infidels" so those two people look at him. The terrorist yells and presses "the button." How many people drew? Zero. Nobody had time.
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Suicide bombers are very hard to stop.... And you cannot search 5 million people a day to see if they have bombs either.
But obtaining explosives in the US is a little harder to do than obtain guns. So I think the cops in the subway are there in case a shootout happens.
Imagine a man with a rifle down there and a cop with 46 rounds of pistol ammunition.
The man with a rifle can easily have 3-4 magazines holding 30 rounds each. That means the bad guy has 120+ rounds and can easily shoot people at a distance.
Once the cop runs out of ammo.... he is easy pickings.
Suicide bombers are very hard to stop.... And you cannot search 5 million people a day to see if they have bombs either.
But obtaining explosives in the US is a little harder to do than obtain guns. So I think the cops in the subway are there in case a shootout happens.
Imagine a man with a rifle down there and a cop with 46 rounds of pistol ammunition.
The man with a rifle can easily have 3-4 magazines holding 30 rounds each. That means the bad guy has 120+ rounds and can easily shoot people at a distance.
Once the cop runs out of ammo.... he is easy pickings.
ufcfanvt
Regular Member
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ScottyT wrote:
ScottyT wrote:
Especially the Prosciutto. Pork might just offend muslims into blowing themselves up!
ufcfanvt
Regular Member
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LEO 229 wrote:
Tax Dollars = $0
LEO 229 wrote:
Imagine an armed populace of responsible people! Some carrying openly, some concealed where the rifleman/jihadi/douche pulls out his AK and gets hit from all sides by a few civilians w/ 20 rounds each firing from behind cover.
Tax Dollars = $0
BobCav
Founder's Club Member
imported post
ufcfanvt wrote:
Concealed Carry Class = $100
Permit Fee = $75
Bullet = .28 cents
Americans acting like responsible citizens and blowing away a terrorist before they can do any harm = PRICELESS
ufcfanvt wrote:
Concealed Carry Class = $100
Permit Fee = $75
Bullet = .28 cents
Americans acting like responsible citizens and blowing away a terrorist before they can do any harm = PRICELESS
bohdi
Regular Member
imported post
I would submit that the torch teams are nothing more than a feel good precaution, a half @$$ed attempt if you will to lull the population into a false sense of security. I will concede that it's better than nothing at all, but a determined and highly motivated foe can still inflict mass casualties without implementing either of the two methods already identified. I was in Japan in 95 when something similiar happened....Aum Shinrikyo on March 20, 1995
PS - LEO229 is accurate, that's all I'm going to say about that
I would submit that the torch teams are nothing more than a feel good precaution, a half @$$ed attempt if you will to lull the population into a false sense of security. I will concede that it's better than nothing at all, but a determined and highly motivated foe can still inflict mass casualties without implementing either of the two methods already identified. I was in Japan in 95 when something similiar happened....Aum Shinrikyo on March 20, 1995
PS - LEO229 is accurate, that's all I'm going to say about that
imported post
bohdi wrote:
Agreed...
Knowing they are there armed means a different type of attack needs to take place.
If it makes the people "feel better" I do not see any harm in that. Having people go about their business and try to live a normal life may be part of it. It may also be a firm warning to anyone thinking about a subway attack... You will be met with fierce resistance.
I do not recall seeing anything about the unit harassing people so it seems they are nothing more than a show piece.
But I am sure others will argue that it is the government's way is getting people use to the idea for what is soon to come.
bohdi?? Do not care to elaborate any more than being accurate? :lol:
bohdi wrote:
I would submit that the torch teams are nothing more than a feel good precaution, a half @$$ed attempt if you will to lull the population into a false sense of security. I will concede that it's better than nothing at all, but a determined and highly motivated foe can still inflict mass casualties without implementing either of the two methods already identified. I was in Japan in 95 when something similiar happened....Aum Shinrikyo on March 20, 1995
PS - LEO229 is accurate, that's all I'm going to say about that
Agreed...
Knowing they are there armed means a different type of attack needs to take place.
If it makes the people "feel better" I do not see any harm in that. Having people go about their business and try to live a normal life may be part of it. It may also be a firm warning to anyone thinking about a subway attack... You will be met with fierce resistance.
I do not recall seeing anything about the unit harassing people so it seems they are nothing more than a show piece.
But I am sure others will argue that it is the government's way is getting people use to the idea for what is soon to come.
bohdi?? Do not care to elaborate any more than being accurate? :lol: