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Torch teams to patrol NYC subway

bohdi

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nice citizen, good citizen, goto sleep citizen. Nothing to see here. Goto sleep. Baaaaaaaaa. lol. Where's my tinfoil hat now toto?:celebrate
 

LEO 229

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Someone has been sniffing too much lead at the range!!!
 

Nelson_Muntz

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LEO 229 wrote:
Suicide bombers are very hard to stop.... And you cannot search 5 million people a day to see if they have bombs either.

Most of the security IS a show. But it is a really BAD show. I take a commuter train daily. You can guess when the cops will run a bomb dog through the train. It happens on Wednesday, each week on a Wednesday if there has been a local threat made, always at the same stop, and the dogs only walk through the lower level passengers.

It is for show, because a suicide bomber will just hit the switch if the dog is lucky enough to hit on him. How does this protect me again? Especially if the stupid bomber was just taking the train to bomb Congress, they will have forced his hand and I get to die instead of the intended target(s).
 

PT111

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Imagine an armed populace of responsible people!
Just where are you going to find a populace of responsible and arm them? I know you are not talking the United States. I will go along with a lot of things but to arm the average NYC subway rider and call them responsibly armed is beyond my comprehension. In the post about 300 people at a subway station rather than claiming only 9 are armed lets say that 200 are armed and someone yells bomb or death to the infidels. What do you think is going to happen?
 

deepdiver

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I don't understand how so many people can miss that this is an utter capitulation to the terrorist. It is a huge "WIN" for them.

Just making NY and especially NYC "shall issue" would be a huge middle finger to the terrorists. Allowing the civilian police force to dress up like the Stazi on a night raid to a dissident's house in the name of safety is equivalent to tucking our tails between our legs and hiding under the bed. It is not a show of force. It is a show of weakness. It is a show of our willingness to give up freedom and individual rights to the state for the mere perception of safety. We all agree they are not going to prevent an attack. So why are they there?

Psychological value? The psychology of this is "They won". We will live with machine gun carrying, helmet wearing, BDU dressed civilian police authorities wandering our public areas just because they killed .001% of our population and blew up a few buildings? We will all suffer the indignity of being partially stripped searched (shoes/belts) just to travel conveniently? We are willing to be screened, patted down, searched, forced to publicly disclose all the contents of our pockets and briefcases to go into a federal office to find out what else we have to give up at the point of gun due to the whim of some gov't official, bureaucrat or legislator?

The people who built this country tolerated a higher death rate and more danger getting up in the morning and walking out to milk the cows. How do people not understand this??? :banghead:

But here is, to me, the very, very scary part. Those in the world who want to destroy this nation and kill her people very much understand the psychology of this. They very much understand that much of the US population are like children quickly flipping off the light and diving into bed before the monster under the bed or in the closet gets them. The don't have to kill 100,000 Americans. They only have to kill a few thousand every several years in some dramatic way and we will beg our governments at every level to destroy the very essence of what it has meant to be an American citizen.
 

deepdiver

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PT111 wrote:
Imagine an armed populace of responsible people!
Just where are you going to find a populace of responsible and arm them? I know you are not talking the United States. I will go along with a lot of things but to arm the average NYC subway rider and call them responsibly armed is beyond my comprehension. In the post about 300 people at a subway station rather than claiming only 9 are armed lets say that 200 are armed and someone yells bomb or death to the infidels. What do you think is going to happen?
There is going to be a dramatic Darwinian moment?

Seriously though, forcing people to be armed is just as wrong as denying people the right to be armed. The 2A doesn't state that an obligation of the people to be armed shall be enforced. It says the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
 

imperialism2024

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deepdiver wrote:
I don't understand how so many people can miss that this is an utter capitulation to the terrorist. It is a huge "WIN" for them.

Just making NY and especially NYC "shall issue" would be a huge middle finger to the terrorists. Allowing the civilian police force to dress up like the Stazi on a night raid to a dissident's house in the name of safety is equivalent to tucking our tails between our legs and hiding under the bed. It is not a show of force. It is a show of weakness. It is a show of our willingness to give up freedom and individual rights to the state for the mere perception of safety. We all agree they are not going to prevent an attack. So why are they there?

Psychological value? The psychology of this is "They won". We will live with machine gun carrying, helmet wearing, BDU dressed civilian police authorities wandering our public areas just because they killed .001% of our population and blew up a few buildings? We will all suffer the indignity of being partially stripped searched (shoes/belts) just to travel conveniently? We are willing to be screened, patted down, searched, forced to publicly disclose all the contents of our pockets and briefcases to go into a federal office to find out what else we have to give up at the point of gun due to the whim of some gov't official, bureaucrat or legislator?

The people who built this country tolerated a higher death rate and more danger getting up in the morning and walking out to milk the cows. How do people not understand this??? :banghead:

But here is, to me, the very, very scary part. Those in the world who want to destroy this nation and kill her people very much understand the psychology of this. They very much understand that much of the US population are like children quickly flipping off the light and diving into bed before the monster under the bed or in the closet gets them. The don't have to kill 100,000 Americans. They only have to kill a few thousand every several years in some dramatic way and we will beg our governments at every level to destroy the very essence of what it has meant to be an American citizen.
Very good post.

The leaders of terrorists are not stupid people. They know that the surest way to get America out of the affairs of their countries is to get America to self-destruct. Get the US police/military to occupy and oppress Americans instead of occupying and oppressing other countries.
 

squarepeg

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I've been ignoring this thread because I had no clue what a torch team was, have no interest in seeing NY, and have never been in a subway this side of the Atlantic. After 4 pages I had to find out what was so popular of a topic. :shock:Holy smokes!!!! If I didn't know what these guys were up to, I would probably freak out a little. Like the posts about the East Bloc, man I never thought America would be torn apart that bad to need heavy firepower to keep the peace. My first thought was "were we just attacked" followed by "do we need to evacuate". Also I know that there is not enough military forces/ police forces to protect every person. We need to be able to protect ourselves if a war is being fought on our own soil.
 

BobCav

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deepdiver wrote:
I don't understand how so many people can miss that this is an utter capitulation to the terrorist. It is a huge "WIN" for them.
You nailed it. They won before the planes ever hit their targets. Not because they are better financed or more well armed, or because they had a plan and people in place for a long time, or bcause they used their sophisticaed intel methods. They won long ago because right or wrong they have something that America hasn't had in a very long time and I fear may never find again....

Passion.

Through that passion they have succeeded in changing MY America into something that I hardly recognize and am too often ashamed of. I think back to the days when I was honored to carry our flag for my Boy Scout Troop through the streets of town. I wouldwatch as thepeople would stop what they were doing, stand up andplace their hands over their heart until Old Glory passed, then go back to their celebrations and conversations.

Today you rarely even see parades. People don't know the words to the national anthem, can't name their elected reps and are so selfish and cold. You can't even get a presidential candidate to place his hand over his heart. It pains me to think about what we had...and lost. WE lost it because we stopped caring. Stopped getting involved in our government andstopped bugging our Senators and Reps on issues that mattered to us. We let them run wild under the spell of the lobbyists and corporate America.

We are taxedmore and more and it is no longer possible for a one income family to survive comfortably. As a result, people just don't want to give more time of their lives to the government than they already have so they sit at home and get their news from the TV. Parents are either too exhausted or too self-absorbed to bother with properly raising their children. As a result children are being raised not by parents, but by day care centers or worse by their peers or on the street. And we wonder where then kids that dreamed up things like Columbine and VT came from? Where the murderers and sociopaths and snipers come from?

I'll tell you a secret- WE created them!!

Not us here in particular but WE THE PEOPLE; the majority of Americans. Just like we created the terrorist organizations that now attack us, we created these internal terrorists. I fear that we have set the great and once majestic ship of our America on a course that we cannot steer away from. Like a whirlpool that sucks everything down to the center, without the strength of the entirenationat the helm, I fear our course has been set.

This is our price. This is our penance.

I only hope that by the will of God almightyHe grants me the strength and wisdom to do whatever is in my power so thatI may see my America once more if but for a moment before I die.
 

ufcfanvt

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PT111 wrote:
Imagine an armed populace of responsible people!
Just where are you going to find a populace of responsible and arm them? I know you are not talking the United States. I will go along with a lot of things but to arm the average NYC subway rider and call them responsibly armed is beyond my comprehension. In the post about 300 people at a subway station rather than claiming only 9 are armed lets say that 200 are armed and someone yells bomb or death to the infidels. What do you think is going to happen?
Your first point is offensive. I believe it is possible to have a United States of responsible individuals and any contradiction to that should be retracted!

On your second point, I agree w/ you entirely. NYC is a sesspool from the most learned professor, to the highest paid CEO, to the lowliest crackhead. The place has thrown its freedom to the wind without a care for it. There is no descernable personal-responsibility that I've seen there. I challenge the city to prove me wrong. :cool:

As to your last point, you make no sense at all. If we were to abolish ALL fed/state/local gun laws tomorrow, I doubt more than 20% of the populace would be armed at any given time, mostly because it's kind of a pain in the ass. I think we can all agree w/ that, but let's face it, if you're a gun-toting-civilian, you're probably a little too type-A and stubborn to let that stop you. :lol:
 

Flintlock

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Exactly, we can barely get 25% of us to vote so I seriously doubt that 20% of us would carry with any regularity.
 

41 Magnum

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You used to be able to take what they called a "hard hat tour"of the Hoover dam. Go down in all the little maintenance tunnels, out on the generator floor. Hell we were even allowed up on the generator heads. The only warning we were given? Don't push that button or Phoenix will be really unhappy.



No you can't get anywhere exept the oberservation deck, and that's under armed guard.



I know we have a lot of LEO members aboard, and I know that most of you will come down on the side of safety for high value targets. But if you really think about it that way then you've missed the big picture.



As for my earlier comment about not being free for 50 years or more, yeah I was wrong. Some of the things Honest Abe did to keep the Union together kinda started the ball rolling. I had forgotten that.
 

unreconstructed1

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basically, we are reaching a crest here. REAL ID, the patriot acts, the "homegrown terrorism acts", and now the torch teams.. and don't act like they'll be isolated to NYC. NYC is basically a testbed for LEO agencies across the U.S. what they have now, everyone else has after a couple of years.

taken as single acts, they seem to be not so bad. sure they deprive us of our god given liberties, but its for "security" so it must be allright, right?

now put them together and what do you see? or even worse, combine them with other unconstitutional acts from throughout the 20th century, and you have a government that is preparing its citizens slowly (which is why it's working) for martial law, tyrrany and despotism
 

Doug Huffman

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Pointman wrote:
Given that any time anything somewhat major happens martial law is declared and people are forced to leave their homes or arrested, guns are confiscated and not returned, etc.,
Martial law has been declared in the US a few times and not "any time anything somewhat major happens..." unless, of course, it means exactly what you want it to mean (a la The Red Queen).

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#United_States_of_America

See also: Suspension clause The martial law concept in the U.S. is closely tied with the right of habeas corpus, which is in essence the right to a hearing on lawful imprisonment, or more broadly, the supervision of law enforcement by the judiciary. The ability to suspend habeas corpus is often equated with martial law. Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution states, "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion, the public Safety may require it."
In United States law, martial law is limited by several court decisions that were handed down between the American Civil War and World War II. In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 possibly rescinds these limits by suspending habeas corpus, but the law is not clear on whether it applies to U.S. Citizens. Since, USNORTHCOM [5] has increased its direct involvement with civilian administration.
The National Guard is an exception, since unless federalized, they are under the control of state governors. [6]. This has now changed. Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122), was signed by President Bush on October 17, 2006, and allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities. Title V, Subtitle B, Part II, Section 525(a) of the JWDAA of 2007 reads "The [military] Secretary [of the Army, Navy or Air Force] concerned may order a member of a reserve component under the Secretary's jurisdiction to active duty...The training or duty ordered to be performed...may include...support of operations or missions undertaken by the member's unit at the request of the President or Secretary of Defense." [7][/sup] The President vetoed the Defense Authorization Act of 2008 on December 27, 2007.A provision in the 2008 defense authorization bill would have repealed this section of PL 109-364. [8][/sup]
edit] New Orleans, Louisiana in the War of 1812 During the War of 1812, U.S. General Andrew Jackson imposed martial law in New Orleans, Louisiana after capturing the encampment of New Orleans from the British in the Battle of New Orleans.
edit] The Territory of Hawaii During World War II (1939 to 1945) what is now the State of Hawaii was held under martial law from 1941 to 1945.
edit] Hurricane Katrina Contrary to many media reports at the time, martial law was not declared in New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, because no such term exists in Louisiana state law. However, a State of Emergency was declared, which does give unique powers to the state government similar to those of martial law. On the evening of August 31, 2005, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin nominally declared "martial law" and said that officers don't have to worry about civil rights and Miranda rights in stopping the looters. [9][/sup] Federal troops were a common sight in New Orleans after Katrina. At one point, as many as 15,000 federal troops and National Guardsmen patrolled the city. Additionally it has been reported that armed contractors from Blackwater USA assisted in policing the city.[10][/sup]
 

Tomahawk

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Pointman wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with the statement of "preparing citizens for martial law."
It prepares people for, if not outright martial law, then an authoritarian police-state type of environment, where you may be compelled to explain yourself to someone in a uniform everytime you step out your front door, or everytime you surf the internet. The policepresume to havethe authority to search your personal effects just for getting on a train, a plane, or a bus, or even for driving your car down the street, and you are less likely to resist if you are used to being intimidated by black-clad soldiers walking around.

Some thing have snuck up on us over the years. We now regularly hear the term "lockdown" when referring to the extrajudicial detainment of innocent children in schools, a term which was once reserved for prisons. Most people never question the legitimacy of this.

Remember when we used to use the term "ex-con" instead of "convicted felon" for someone who had served their term?

As time goes on I feel more and more uneasy about the way we are going.
 
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