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So um... I got confronted at WalMart again today....
- Thread starter Aran
- Start date
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Basically what people are asking is that people who cc or oc dress in a respectable manner. REspectable is defined as the manner as people who have repectable lifestyles dress. That could be suit and tie but that is no longer considered the minmum respectable dress. Today that would be clean jeans, a clean, not torn t shirt. Respectable dress at Walmart is not the same as respectable dress at a play or church.
The big issue is not to dress in gangsta fashion. Loose pants around the ass and hoody with hood over head. If I saw a young man dressed like that especially if he was not white carrying OC or CC they I would assume thathe is a robber and call the cops. I would not if I could not see a gun.
Sorry if that offends you but the simple fact is that criminals have a dress style. If someone dresses in the same style it is reasonable to assume that they may be a criminal.
Plus one of our strongest arguments is that people who have CCW are the most law abiding not the least . But a bad apple does spoil the barrel. The case in Seattle where the guy with legal CCW got in an public argument at a outdoor festival and his gun was the one that shot 2 innocent people. Because of that idiot that allowed himself to get in an argument has damaged the entire city's legal ability to carry CCW at city property and parks.
Plus if people have CCW fail to secure the firearm the argument that dangerous accidents can occur have more justification. Example was this week a magistrate in NC was in Loew's and had her gun in her purse with her 4 year old granchold which grabbed the gun and shot herself and is in critical condition.
Basically what people are asking is that people who cc or oc dress in a respectable manner. REspectable is defined as the manner as people who have repectable lifestyles dress. That could be suit and tie but that is no longer considered the minmum respectable dress. Today that would be clean jeans, a clean, not torn t shirt. Respectable dress at Walmart is not the same as respectable dress at a play or church.
The big issue is not to dress in gangsta fashion. Loose pants around the ass and hoody with hood over head. If I saw a young man dressed like that especially if he was not white carrying OC or CC they I would assume thathe is a robber and call the cops. I would not if I could not see a gun.
Sorry if that offends you but the simple fact is that criminals have a dress style. If someone dresses in the same style it is reasonable to assume that they may be a criminal.
Plus one of our strongest arguments is that people who have CCW are the most law abiding not the least . But a bad apple does spoil the barrel. The case in Seattle where the guy with legal CCW got in an public argument at a outdoor festival and his gun was the one that shot 2 innocent people. Because of that idiot that allowed himself to get in an argument has damaged the entire city's legal ability to carry CCW at city property and parks.
Plus if people have CCW fail to secure the firearm the argument that dangerous accidents can occur have more justification. Example was this week a magistrate in NC was in Loew's and had her gun in her purse with her 4 year old granchold which grabbed the gun and shot herself and is in critical condition.
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Rimfire posted some clear examples of double-standards. When gangstas shoot someone, especially the third and fourth someone, where is the outcry to arrest them and sentence them to a harsh prison sentence with no cable TV and a chain-gang? When someone jacks a car stereo, where is CSI with the fingerprint kit?
It's a gun-grab, plain and simple. We do need to set a good example, no doubt. But we also need to realize sensationalism.
Rimfire posted some clear examples of double-standards. When gangstas shoot someone, especially the third and fourth someone, where is the outcry to arrest them and sentence them to a harsh prison sentence with no cable TV and a chain-gang? When someone jacks a car stereo, where is CSI with the fingerprint kit?
It's a gun-grab, plain and simple. We do need to set a good example, no doubt. But we also need to realize sensationalism.
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In the Seattle case I do not think they arrested the guy with the CCW they are still investigating. Seattle's mayor is doing this under public saftey. The worse thing is there is a State SC case law that may allow this twisting of State premption on gun laws.
IT is perfectly rational to make assumptions based on someone is dressed. Sorry if that offends but that is the truth. Refusal to accede to customary conventions dress standards is usually juvenile rebellion.
However orange hair and an orange t shirt may be more punkish but not gangsta. Punks spiked hair etc are generally non violant. They benefit from that reputation.
In our society people constantly resist the idea that reputation is valuable. But look respectable and have a good reputation will make the difference from an arrest or just a simple have questions asked and released.
In the Seattle case I do not think they arrested the guy with the CCW they are still investigating. Seattle's mayor is doing this under public saftey. The worse thing is there is a State SC case law that may allow this twisting of State premption on gun laws.
IT is perfectly rational to make assumptions based on someone is dressed. Sorry if that offends but that is the truth. Refusal to accede to customary conventions dress standards is usually juvenile rebellion.
However orange hair and an orange t shirt may be more punkish but not gangsta. Punks spiked hair etc are generally non violant. They benefit from that reputation.
In our society people constantly resist the idea that reputation is valuable. But look respectable and have a good reputation will make the difference from an arrest or just a simple have questions asked and released.
Aran
Banned
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I've been back to WalMart twice now, both times as casually concealing as before, no comments were made, no funny looks were had.
I'm about 85% sure it's that one loss prevention guy that has it out for me for some reason. The same guy who got in my face and screamed at me (Okay, not screamed, but he definitely raised his voice FAR more than necessary for being 3" from my face with me in handcuffs) about going back to Texas, and who disarmed me while I was being cuffed.
And who follows me every time I go to the store when he's there, now. Oh well, if he wants to waste his time following me zigzagging from one end of the store to the other and back a thousand times as I think of things I want/want to look at, he's more than welcome, so long as he isn't actively harassing me.
Edit: By the way, my hair isn't spiked, or even short. Its current style is best described as "Almost a mullet", until my bangs grow out a bit more. It's about 5-6" all the way around my head, as I'm letting it grow out a bit before I decide on how I want to get it cut, or if I want to grow it out long again.
This summer is about to convince me to cut it short already. Yeesh, already getting up to the mid-90s.
I've been back to WalMart twice now, both times as casually concealing as before, no comments were made, no funny looks were had.
I'm about 85% sure it's that one loss prevention guy that has it out for me for some reason. The same guy who got in my face and screamed at me (Okay, not screamed, but he definitely raised his voice FAR more than necessary for being 3" from my face with me in handcuffs) about going back to Texas, and who disarmed me while I was being cuffed.
And who follows me every time I go to the store when he's there, now. Oh well, if he wants to waste his time following me zigzagging from one end of the store to the other and back a thousand times as I think of things I want/want to look at, he's more than welcome, so long as he isn't actively harassing me.
Edit: By the way, my hair isn't spiked, or even short. Its current style is best described as "Almost a mullet", until my bangs grow out a bit more. It's about 5-6" all the way around my head, as I'm letting it grow out a bit before I decide on how I want to get it cut, or if I want to grow it out long again.
This summer is about to convince me to cut it short already. Yeesh, already getting up to the mid-90s.
dkd
Regular Member
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rimfire wrote:
That is definitely a double standard. You might as well take it one step further and assume anyone who is OC'ing or CC'ing and isnt white is a criminal and call the cops.
Its always interesting to hear the train of thought of the people who claim they believe in the protection of rights.
rimfire wrote:
so you automatically assume someone who isnt white is a criminal, because dont find their fashion sense in line with yours? What is the criminals "dress style" and does this "style" apply to all criminals or are you just talking non-white criminals?
That is definitely a double standard. You might as well take it one step further and assume anyone who is OC'ing or CC'ing and isnt white is a criminal and call the cops.
Its always interesting to hear the train of thought of the people who claim they believe in the protection of rights.
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I am concerned that non whites who are OC will be hassled based on the fact that most crimes are done by blacks 14-30 age and they do have a dress style. I don't assume that someone dressed in gangsta style is a criminal, I think he may be a criminal and if Isee a young man walking down the street dressed like that in front of my house, I watch with a shepard by my side.
Is that a double standard? Maybe so. But my safety is not concerned with being PC.
If I go to a 7-11 late at nigt to get some cigarettes and some young men walk in dress sloppy with hoodies, especially in the summer. I looked to see what their companions look like and am aware that something may happen. 90 % of these young men are harmless and have no intention to rob anyone. But ignoring cues of criminal dress styles and walks is foolish. In my state MD we can not legally carry OC or CCW. I don't have the luxury of thatand have a means to shoot back. All I could do is get out the way and try to avoid a robbery situation.
My son's friend is black, nice kid but foolish. I am trying to get him aware that he is more of a cop magnet and to try to behave as to not to get cops thinking he is a perp. He does not dress like gansta and lives with wealthy white parents and assumes that no one will bother him because of his upbringing. But cops pick up any young man driving under pretext a light is out and will ask to search. I have shown my son and his friends the ACLU videos on what to do on a police stop.
Police have becomes used to being lazy that anyone with a gun is a criminal. Now that more people and states have CCW aaand OC that ease is gone. So the cops use other factors to see if the person is a possible perp. Dress and movement is one of them.
So will Mexicans and blacks in inner citty get hassled and maybe shot while OC if OC gets common. I do not know, but the transition to getting police and society used to idea that OC is OK can get messy.
That is why looking respectable is a good idea. Gun control got it's start by a bunch of black activists marching while armed in CA back in the 60's . That terrified people that they were going to killed and the 1968 act was passed. Do not give a reason why OC should be made illegal.
I am concerned that non whites who are OC will be hassled based on the fact that most crimes are done by blacks 14-30 age and they do have a dress style. I don't assume that someone dressed in gangsta style is a criminal, I think he may be a criminal and if Isee a young man walking down the street dressed like that in front of my house, I watch with a shepard by my side.
Is that a double standard? Maybe so. But my safety is not concerned with being PC.
If I go to a 7-11 late at nigt to get some cigarettes and some young men walk in dress sloppy with hoodies, especially in the summer. I looked to see what their companions look like and am aware that something may happen. 90 % of these young men are harmless and have no intention to rob anyone. But ignoring cues of criminal dress styles and walks is foolish. In my state MD we can not legally carry OC or CCW. I don't have the luxury of thatand have a means to shoot back. All I could do is get out the way and try to avoid a robbery situation.
My son's friend is black, nice kid but foolish. I am trying to get him aware that he is more of a cop magnet and to try to behave as to not to get cops thinking he is a perp. He does not dress like gansta and lives with wealthy white parents and assumes that no one will bother him because of his upbringing. But cops pick up any young man driving under pretext a light is out and will ask to search. I have shown my son and his friends the ACLU videos on what to do on a police stop.
Police have becomes used to being lazy that anyone with a gun is a criminal. Now that more people and states have CCW aaand OC that ease is gone. So the cops use other factors to see if the person is a possible perp. Dress and movement is one of them.
So will Mexicans and blacks in inner citty get hassled and maybe shot while OC if OC gets common. I do not know, but the transition to getting police and society used to idea that OC is OK can get messy.
That is why looking respectable is a good idea. Gun control got it's start by a bunch of black activists marching while armed in CA back in the 60's . That terrified people that they were going to killed and the 1968 act was passed. Do not give a reason why OC should be made illegal.
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I guess the point I am trying to make is deal with reality and not the ideal. We live in the real world and the ideal that everyone can walk around with a gun and not be hassled is the ideal.
Most criminals are walking around armed and concealed. How to we differentiate them from a law abiding person? Dress style is one of the cues.
I guess the point I am trying to make is deal with reality and not the ideal. We live in the real world and the ideal that everyone can walk around with a gun and not be hassled is the ideal.
Most criminals are walking around armed and concealed. How to we differentiate them from a law abiding person? Dress style is one of the cues.
Aran
Banned
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Psst, don't look now but you're coming off a little tin foil hatty, and more than a touch racist.
Psst, don't look now but you're coming off a little tin foil hatty, and more than a touch racist.
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Recognizing habits and behavior clues is not racist. I did not attack the character of any poster here. Shutting down discussion by calling someone a racist is typical of many lefties.
IF young rebels pushing for the ideal damage the reputation of OC people . Then voters will push for that to be changed.
OC people are the cutting edge to change to get more people to accept and feel comfortable with OC . Their behavior is watched. Almost all the OC posters are cognizant of that fact and behave impeccably and properly refuse to have their rights diminished by police hassle. That is great. The poster that started the thread has made one person angry , the LP at Walmart and has defused that situation properly.
Recognizing habits and behavior clues is not racist. I did not attack the character of any poster here. Shutting down discussion by calling someone a racist is typical of many lefties.
IF young rebels pushing for the ideal damage the reputation of OC people . Then voters will push for that to be changed.
OC people are the cutting edge to change to get more people to accept and feel comfortable with OC . Their behavior is watched. Almost all the OC posters are cognizant of that fact and behave impeccably and properly refuse to have their rights diminished by police hassle. That is great. The poster that started the thread has made one person angry , the LP at Walmart and has defused that situation properly.
dkd
Regular Member
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rimfire wrote:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=916
"Throughout much of American history, gun control was openly stated as a method for keeping blacks and hispanics in their place, and to quite the racial fears of whites"
rimfire wrote:
as to not hijack this thread any further there are other threads going and there are many articles thoughtout the web on the racist roots of gun control many of which mirror some of your fears.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=916
"Throughout much of American history, gun control was openly stated as a method for keeping blacks and hispanics in their place, and to quite the racial fears of whites"
Aran
Banned
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Did you see what you did there rimfire? I pointed out you're coming off as something, and you turned it around as an insult at me.
Find another thread for your rhetoric.
Did you see what you did there rimfire? I pointed out you're coming off as something, and you turned it around as an insult at me.
Find another thread for your rhetoric.
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Aran, You smeared me by calling a rational observation tin hat and racist. I just called back that is a tactic to shut down discussion.
What you did at Walmart was legitimate and obvious that someone has it out for you. If they waste their time following you around, well that is annoying but tolerable. Peoples fears may be illogical but not always irrational. When you OC you represent more than just yourself.
The guy in Seattle has damaged all the CCW people in Seattle by his mis reaction.
Aran, You smeared me by calling a rational observation tin hat and racist. I just called back that is a tactic to shut down discussion.
What you did at Walmart was legitimate and obvious that someone has it out for you. If they waste their time following you around, well that is annoying but tolerable. Peoples fears may be illogical but not always irrational. When you OC you represent more than just yourself.
The guy in Seattle has damaged all the CCW people in Seattle by his mis reaction.
dkd
Regular Member
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rimfire wrote:
and as long as he is a law abiding citizen then he should be able to go about his business, no matter how he looks or dresses.
he is still an individual who is ecxercising an individual right.
rimfire wrote:
and as long as he is a law abiding citizen then he should be able to go about his business, no matter how he looks or dresses.
he is still an individual who is ecxercising an individual right.
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dkd wrote:
dkd wrote:
Right, at the end of the day it's a right no matter how you dress. There is nothing (legally, as far as I can tell) wrong with an OCing mime or clown. Though I'm sure CC (clown carry) would gain unwanted attention.
edstephan
Regular Member
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Yesterday, 12 June 2008my wife and I went to Walmart in Indiana, Paabout 9:30pm and had no trouble with anyone. We walked around shopping for about an hour and a half without any hassles.
Ed Stephan
Yesterday, 12 June 2008my wife and I went to Walmart in Indiana, Paabout 9:30pm and had no trouble with anyone. We walked around shopping for about an hour and a half without any hassles.
Ed Stephan
Aran
Banned
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Yeah, I read your post over on PAFOA.
Couldn't reply, for obvious reasons.
Yeah, I read your post over on PAFOA.
Couldn't reply, for obvious reasons.
Michele
Regular Member
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I've never had an issue in Walmart.
My question would be, if you're so afraid, why would you confront someone with a firearm. Seems suicidal to me, or at the very least stupid.
After all the O/C issues here in PA, i've decided to stand with my fellow firearm owners, I will live by the NO GUN=NO MONEY. I'm not trying to make a "statement", i'm merely excercising my RIGHT!
I've never had an issue in Walmart.
My question would be, if you're so afraid, why would you confront someone with a firearm. Seems suicidal to me, or at the very least stupid.
After all the O/C issues here in PA, i've decided to stand with my fellow firearm owners, I will live by the NO GUN=NO MONEY. I'm not trying to make a "statement", i'm merely excercising my RIGHT!
DT4E31
Regular Member
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Just wondering. If you put a beautiful blonde woman in a sexy outfit in WalMart, OCing, would anyone complain???????????????? :lol:
Just wondering. If you put a beautiful blonde woman in a sexy outfit in WalMart, OCing, would anyone complain???????????????? :lol:
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DT4E31 wrote:
DT4E31 wrote:
Yes, anti-gun people would still complain and be uncomforable... Generally, as seen in other "bad encounter" threads, negative reactions to open carry are given by people who hate guns. In fact, I know somebody who's so anti-gun they have said, "It makes me sick inside whenever I see a policeman's gun." So, yes, anti-gun men and woman both may complain... I don't really think this is gender specific.