eyesopened
Regular Member
imported post
Alexcabbie wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
Can you link to an article/study on that or is that something you just heard?
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Choice of caliber, .45 instead of 9mm
- Thread starter david.ross
- Start date
Alexcabbie
Regular Member
imported post
eyesopened wrote:
eyesopened wrote:
I believe I learned that by way of reading a column written by the late Jeff Cooper. And If Colonel Cooper did not know what he was talking about, then I don't know who would.
compmanio365
Regular Member
imported post
Para Ordinance makes the LDA trigger system, as well as the double stack 1911 in 45. They also make 1911s in 9mm, for those wussies out there. :lol:
Para Ordinance makes the LDA trigger system, as well as the double stack 1911 in 45. They also make 1911s in 9mm, for those wussies out there. :lol:
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
Alexcabbie wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
How horrid! I just tried briefly to check on '9 mm kills' by Col. Cooper and discovered that the archive, certainly the one I found, of his 'Commentaries' is hosted in the UK!!!!
KnightSG7
Regular Member
imported post
I had a kid (19) the other day tell me that my 9mm was a "pea shooter" compaired to his .40.....atleast I can hit sh*t with mine!!!
I had a kid (19) the other day tell me that my 9mm was a "pea shooter" compaired to his .40.....atleast I can hit sh*t with mine!!!
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
imported post
It just dawned on mewhy this argument seems pointless.
If projectile size (diameter) is important why are so many trying to acquire .223 and .308 assault style rifles? Shouldn't we be trying to buy Thompson .45's, if bigger is better? Or better yet, how about .50 cal elephant guns, or .54 cal muzzle loaders? I mean, come on! aren't these smaller bore rifles just "pea shooters" compared to the bigger cannons?
It just dawned on mewhy this argument seems pointless.
If projectile size (diameter) is important why are so many trying to acquire .223 and .308 assault style rifles? Shouldn't we be trying to buy Thompson .45's, if bigger is better? Or better yet, how about .50 cal elephant guns, or .54 cal muzzle loaders? I mean, come on! aren't these smaller bore rifles just "pea shooters" compared to the bigger cannons?
eyesopened
Regular Member
imported post
Alexcabbie wrote:
That amazes me as he is one of the staunchest supporters of the .45ACP... :uhoh:
Quotes from Cooper: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Quotations+from+Chairman+Jeff
August 1975--"The 9mm Parabellum cartridge cannot be considered a reliable fight stopper--with any load. I have three recent cases of multiple torso wounds (four hits, four hits and seven hits) that did not shut the subject down, and each was with a different load."
I carry both caliber handguns but I prefer the .45 personally.
Alexcabbie wrote:
That amazes me as he is one of the staunchest supporters of the .45ACP... :uhoh:
Quotes from Cooper: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Quotations+from+Chairman+Jeff
August 1975--"The 9mm Parabellum cartridge cannot be considered a reliable fight stopper--with any load. I have three recent cases of multiple torso wounds (four hits, four hits and seven hits) that did not shut the subject down, and each was with a different load."
I carry both caliber handguns but I prefer the .45 personally.
compmanio365
Regular Member
imported post
I have seen statistics that say .22 has killed more people than any other round. Not 9mm. Doesn't mean those people died right away, probably took them a while. And there is the problem.
I have seen statistics that say .22 has killed more people than any other round. Not 9mm. Doesn't mean those people died right away, probably took them a while. And there is the problem.
Alexcabbie
Regular Member
imported post
Legba wrote:
Lincoln was killed with a "Philadelphia Deringer", a single-shot percussion cap and ball pocket pistol that I do believe was at least twice .22 caliber. Or are you talking about Lincoln Rockwell??
Don't know what the Archduke was killed with but I do know that his chauffeur took a wrong turn and just happened to drive right in front of the assassin, Gavrilo Prinzips; who was sulking over the failure of an attempt earlier in the day. Whenever someone says that I have a chump job being a cabbie I like to point out that WW I began as a result of a chauffeur taking a wrong turn. But .32 sounds about right.
And as to Jeff Cooper it is quite right that he disparaged the 9mm; but I believe the comment was made as an observation of the sheer number of rounds fired in actual combat in time of war. And I should have said "pistol caliber". As for me I find the nine to be adequate and for that matter the .380 also. .38 and .357 are dandy too; and when I finally buy that XDm I am craving I will get the .40 version. On the high end I have Maggie Mae, my trusty .44 M629 with the 6 1/2 " barrel; but she's just a showoff/fun to shoot piece that may have utility if I am out hunting wabbits and run into a grouchy bear. I will amend my comment about safely carrying a 1911 cocked and locked to say that if I could retain it with the thumbbreak retaining strap between the hammer and the frame I MIGHT consider it.
Legba wrote:
Lincoln was killed with a "Philadelphia Deringer", a single-shot percussion cap and ball pocket pistol that I do believe was at least twice .22 caliber. Or are you talking about Lincoln Rockwell??
Don't know what the Archduke was killed with but I do know that his chauffeur took a wrong turn and just happened to drive right in front of the assassin, Gavrilo Prinzips; who was sulking over the failure of an attempt earlier in the day. Whenever someone says that I have a chump job being a cabbie I like to point out that WW I began as a result of a chauffeur taking a wrong turn. But .32 sounds about right.
And as to Jeff Cooper it is quite right that he disparaged the 9mm; but I believe the comment was made as an observation of the sheer number of rounds fired in actual combat in time of war. And I should have said "pistol caliber". As for me I find the nine to be adequate and for that matter the .380 also. .38 and .357 are dandy too; and when I finally buy that XDm I am craving I will get the .40 version. On the high end I have Maggie Mae, my trusty .44 M629 with the 6 1/2 " barrel; but she's just a showoff/fun to shoot piece that may have utility if I am out hunting wabbits and run into a grouchy bear. I will amend my comment about safely carrying a 1911 cocked and locked to say that if I could retain it with the thumbbreak retaining strap between the hammer and the frame I MIGHT consider it.
Felid`Maximus
Activist Member
imported post
Hawkflyer wrote:
Since they haven't passed an AWB (assault words ban) and the freedom of speech exists, I believe that it would be perfectly okay for you to "use" that document. But I am no lawyer.
I think that FBI document is one of the best written on terminal performance.
As for my opinion, the differences between most calibers, given adequate penetrationand good aim, is quite marginal.
Hawkflyer wrote:
Since they haven't passed an AWB (assault words ban) and the freedom of speech exists, I believe that it would be perfectly okay for you to "use" that document. But I am no lawyer.
I think that FBI document is one of the best written on terminal performance.
As for my opinion, the differences between most calibers, given adequate penetrationand good aim, is quite marginal.
Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
imported post
Felid`Maximus wrote:
Well yea. But if you are in LE you kind of have to be careful when things are stamped LE USE ONLY. So that is why I qualified that I did not release the document I just used the existing document as a cite.
The reference earlier in the thread to the late Jeff Cooper not withstanding this same FBI research (linked above) states that the .22 caliber has actually killed more people than any other caliber.
As for the Lincoln derringer it was (is) a .44 caliber muzzle loader.
Ferdinand was in fact shot with a .32 caliber.
Regards
Felid`Maximus wrote:
Well yea. But if you are in LE you kind of have to be careful when things are stamped LE USE ONLY. So that is why I qualified that I did not release the document I just used the existing document as a cite.
The reference earlier in the thread to the late Jeff Cooper not withstanding this same FBI research (linked above) states that the .22 caliber has actually killed more people than any other caliber.
As for the Lincoln derringer it was (is) a .44 caliber muzzle loader.
Ferdinand was in fact shot with a .32 caliber.
Regards
AZkopper
Regular Member
imported post
.45acp is far superior to the 9mm in terms of stopping power, IMHO.
I have no scientific data for my opinion, only 14 years of law enforcement observations. I have seen far too many suspects shot with 9mm's, repeatedly (3+ shots), center mass, and not go down. I have yet to see a suspect not go down after a center mass hit with a 45.
Just my observations.
.45acp is far superior to the 9mm in terms of stopping power, IMHO.
I have no scientific data for my opinion, only 14 years of law enforcement observations. I have seen far too many suspects shot with 9mm's, repeatedly (3+ shots), center mass, and not go down. I have yet to see a suspect not go down after a center mass hit with a 45.
Just my observations.
American Rattlesnake
Regular Member
imported post
AZkopper wrote:
AZkopper wrote:
Because of context, I'm pretty sure you intended to say:
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
Doug Huffman wrote:
Doug Huffman wrote:
Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
FogRider
Regular Member
imported post
Personally I think 9mm vs. .45 pretty much boils down to opinion. Yes, there is a measurable difference in energy between the two, but it's not enough to positively say one is better than the other. They way I look at it, if 9mm was truly that poor of a round it wouldn't exist outside of target guns. The fact that people that rely on their sidearm on a daily basis still use 9mm is good enough for me.
Personally I think 9mm vs. .45 pretty much boils down to opinion. Yes, there is a measurable difference in energy between the two, but it's not enough to positively say one is better than the other. They way I look at it, if 9mm was truly that poor of a round it wouldn't exist outside of target guns. The fact that people that rely on their sidearm on a daily basis still use 9mm is good enough for me.
deepdiver
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Hawkflyer wrote:
Edited to remove excess quoting
Hawkflyer wrote:
My recollection differed as to Ferdinand and my Google-fu tells me he was killed with a FN-Browning M1910, which was, according to my handy-dandy Pistols of the World reference book, manufactured in 7.65mm aka .32 acp and 9mm short aka 9mm Browning aka 9mm Kurz aka .380, and it was indeed a .380 chambered model used by Prinicp to kill the Archduke.
Edited to remove excess quoting
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
imported post
I still think the proponants of both calipers should prove their arguments in a duel. I'll even standby as a witness and document the findings.
I still think the proponants of both calipers should prove their arguments in a duel. I'll even standby as a witness and document the findings.
Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
imported post
deepdiver wrote:
Well we will have to go to dueling citations to resolve it.
Mine says 7.65x17mm, or .32 auto
I give up I cannot get the link to post correctly. Replace the" xx " in the link below with a ":"and a "P", and that will complete the link. When I post it correctly the system replace thecolonP with this -
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Gavrilo xx rincip.html
"The gun used by Princip was a Browning M 1910 semi-automatic pistol in 7.65×17mm (.32 ACP) caliber. It was recently found and recovered in the home of an Austrian Jesuit family, and is now in display at the Vienna Museum of Military History . The second bullet fired by Princip, killing Ferdinand, is stored as a museum exhibit in the Konopište Castle in the town of Konopište , Czech Republic. "
deepdiver wrote:
Well we will have to go to dueling citations to resolve it.
Mine says 7.65x17mm, or .32 auto
I give up I cannot get the link to post correctly. Replace the" xx " in the link below with a ":"and a "P", and that will complete the link. When I post it correctly the system replace thecolonP with this -
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Gavrilo xx rincip.html
"The gun used by Princip was a Browning M 1910 semi-automatic pistol in 7.65×17mm (.32 ACP) caliber. It was recently found and recovered in the home of an Austrian Jesuit family, and is now in display at the Vienna Museum of Military History . The second bullet fired by Princip, killing Ferdinand, is stored as a museum exhibit in the Konopište Castle in the town of Konopište , Czech Republic. "