Dinner in Saginaw

dougwg · Feb 8, 2009

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conservative85 wrote:

HPC9 wrote:

ruger45 wrote:

so if you do not have a cpl you are not allowed to go in waallmart or mieyers while open carrieing is that what this means?

Click to expand...

Correct, nor any other place that sells alcohol.

Click to expand...

I am looking for the law that covers the liquor control act #8 and it's description, but as i was told by a state police officer regardless if you have a cpl or not you can enter private property that sells packaged liquor.

Um...you know better then that.

Read the law and learn for yourself.
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

viperar15 · Feb 8, 2009

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was a great time. over the course of the lunch, there was a total of 12 people that came out.

and most everyone was carrying.

i oc'ed out in public for the first time around a bunch of people. i had only done last week out at the hotel i was staying and i normally only saw a couple people. was great to get out around more people.

after lunch, some of the guys that came out went to gander mountain afterwards. from what i hear, nothing much happened, except the purchase of some ammo.

HPC9 · Feb 8, 2009

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Taurus850CIA · Feb 8, 2009

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dougwg wrote:

conservative85 wrote:

HPC9 wrote:

ruger45 wrote:

so if you do not have a cpl you are not allowed to go in waallmart or mieyers while open carrieing is that what this means?

Click to expand...

Correct, nor any other place that sells alcohol.

Click to expand...

I am looking for the law that covers the liquor control act #8 and it's description, but as i was told by a state police officer regardless if you have a cpl or not you can enter private property that sells packaged liquor.

Click to expand...

Um...you know better than that.

Read the law and learn for yourself.
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

Technically, he's correct, but he left out the part of obtaining the permission of the property owner(w/o cpl). Then, and only then...

Of course, it's been pointed out here before, obtaining permission to exercise a right is not a path we should have to take.

SpringerXDacp · Feb 8, 2009

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conservative85 wrote:

HPC9 wrote:

ruger45 wrote:

so if you do not have a cpl you are not allowed to go in waallmart or mieyers while open carrieing is that what this means?

Click to expand...

Correct, nor any other place that sells alcohol.

Click to expand...

I am looking for the law that covers the liquor control act #8 and it's description, but as i was told by a state police officer regardless if you have a cpl or not you can enter private property that sells packaged liquor.

The trooper may be correct.

The Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933 pertains to individuals under 21 years of age and alcohol consumption or something very similar to that.

And, IIRC, it also pertains to places where consumption of alcohol is illegal even for those 21 years of age or older. i.e. places not licensed to sell and/or have consumption of alcohol on premises.

Taurus850CIA · Feb 8, 2009

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Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this worry about carrying openly in places that sell package liquor is infounded. Here is the law pertaining to open carry:

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d.
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

Act 8 of 1933 was repealed in 1957, meaning that there is no establishment licensed under the act. I would assume that bars are currently licensed under a different liquor control act.

ETA:

THE MICHIGAN LIQUOR CONTROL ACT
Act 8 of 1933 (Ex. Sess.)
436.1-436.58 Repealed.1957, Act 264, Imd. Eff. June 13, 1957;—1968, Act 22, Imd. Eff. May 17, 1968;—1986, Act 176, Imd. Eff. July 7, 1986;—1991, Act 98, Eff. Jan. 1, 1992;—1994, Act 142, Eff. Apr. 1, 1995;—1996, Act 493, Eff. Apr. 1, 1997;—1998, Act 58, Imd. Eff. Apr. 14, 1998.

Taurus850CIA · Feb 8, 2009

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...and the snip from the concealed carry laws...

...snip

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

snip...

Different liquor control law

eta: oh, there is more to come... i hate reading law...

Taurus850CIA · Feb 8, 2009

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Oh hell, The 1998 act replaced Act 8. They are still licensed under the new law. So much for that.

dougwg · Feb 8, 2009

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I was just going to post that.... but you found it for yourself

ruger45 · Feb 8, 2009

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Ok, just so I'm clear on this............can we carry at Meijer, Wal-mart, etc., without a CPLor not??

dougwg · Feb 8, 2009

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ruger45 wrote:

Ok, just so I'm clear on this............can we carry at Meijer, Wal-mart, etc., without a CPLor not??

NO YOU CAN'T!

It's illegal.

ruger45 · Feb 8, 2009

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dougwg wrote:

ruger45 wrote:

Ok, just so I'm clear on this............can we carry at Meijer, Wal-mart, etc., without a CPLor not??

Click to expand...

NO YOU CAN'T!

It's illegal.

You know i always thought and know it is confirmed you are rude and and do not have people skills and think you are a know it all.it is people like you who make it hard to even ask a ?? in this forum because you degrate them in such a way.jerry and everyone else i wish good luck too.my wife used to love this site and the talk show but because of attitude like this she has veered away from here.this is really sad it had to come to this.i hope you all do well and live a great life no hard feelings on this side.

conservative85 · Feb 9, 2009

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Technically Meijersis private property (private property overrides state law)You can OC if you have Meijers permission.

Bottom line here is that constitutionally you can carry a firearm any where you wish. Private property is the only restriction. Unless you count thePoliticians, lawyers, (one in the same now days) judges, and majority of the police who believe that because of their extra education they can decipher some mysteriously hidden meaning written in the constitution, that we the lil people do not see. They call it "Interpretation"

Here is my advise Do as you wish, if you are arrested you exercise your 4th & 5th amendment rights, get a good lawyer and argue that the state constitution,& bill of rights permit you the right to keep and bear arms and shall not be infringed. Of course this is how "they" keep us lil people from attempting to "Peaceably assemble"

Venator · Feb 9, 2009

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ruger45 wrote:

Ok, just so I'm clear on this............can we carry at Meijer, Wal-mart, etc., without a CPLor not??

Until we get more info, MOC is advising thatpeoplenot carry in any place that sells alcohol unless you have a CPL. If you get permission form the owner then you can carry, but state law at this time is saying no firearms in any place that has a license from the liquor control commission.

An aside I hope your wife will continue to visit the site and to keep listening to the talk show. Her input is always welcome.

Taurus850CIA · Feb 9, 2009

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conservative85 wrote:

Technically Meijersis private property (private property overrides state law)You can OC if you have Meijers permission.

Bottom line here is that constitutionally you can carry a firearm any where you wish. Private property is the only restriction. Unless you count thePoliticians, lawyers, (one in the same now days) judges, and majority of the police who believe that because of their extra education they can decipher some mysteriously hidden meaning written in the constitution, that we the lil people do not see. They call it "Interpretation"

Here is my advise Do as you wish, if you are arrested you exercise your 4th & 5th amendment rights, get a good lawyer and argue that the state constitution,& bill of rights permit you the right to keep and bear arms and shall not be infringed. Of course this is how "they" keep us lil people from attempting to "Peaceably assemble"

Good luck with that. The system falls back on case law, and unless your pockets are as deep as Bill Gates', you lose.

The dicey part about asking permission is that it can cause a private property owner feel the need to post the property as a firearms free zone, thereby affecting those among us who may legally enter the property without asking permission. Then we ALL "lose" the right. The law concerning open carry on those properties needs to be amended to read in a similar manner to the concealed carry law, ie.: ...the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises.
Until then, I suggest abiding by the law, and avoid these places. Send receipts and a brief description of why you shop elsewhere. You may cause the business owner to have enough concern to fight for our cause as well. In todays economy, money speaks volumes.

dougwg · Feb 9, 2009

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ruger45 wrote:

You know i always thought and know it is confirmed you are rude and and do not have people skills and think you are a know it all.it is people like you who make it hard to even ask a ?? in this forum because you degrate them in such a way.jerry and everyone else i wish good luck too.my wife used to love this site and the talk show but because of attitude like this she has veered away from here.this is really sad it had to come to this.i hope you all do well and live a great life no hard feelings on this side.

You asked for clarification. I was trying to be clear. Was I not clear?

See if you can wrap your head around this Ruger45.

We post, in this thread, that according to the law it's illegal to carry without a CPL in any place that is licensed by the liquor control act. Which means any place that sells beer, wine or liquor.

Knowing that "Meijer, Wal-mart, etc.," all sell alcohol, they are off limits to carrying non-CPL holders.

You asked:
"so if you do not have a cpl you are not allowed to go in waallmart or mieyers while open carrieing is that what this means?"

It was answered:
"Correct, nor any other place that sells alcohol."

Then I posted the two pertinent laws for review:
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

Then you ask the same question AGAIN:
"Ok, just so I'm clear on this............can we carry at Meijer, Wal-mart, etc., without a CPLor not??"

At this point it was clear that you were having a problem with wrapping your head around this issue so I answered you with nice big bold letters so it would be clear for you as it was painfully clear that you lackedthe skill to read the actual law for your self and comprehend it even though it washighlighted above.

You don't like the way I answered your question? Too bad.

You call me rude. I say I'm "to the point" and don't beat around the bush.

Maybe it would be better if you didn't OC at all. Maybe it would be better if you didn't CC with a CPL either a there are many more laws that you will have to struggle to get through that thick skull of yours.

Waaaahhhh, I asked a question and doug typed in big bold letters when he answered me....WAAAAHHHHH.

Click to expand...

Grow up.

We already have one member here that couldn't bring himself to listen to the advice of others and look what he went through and is stuck with for a few years.

You're playing with Misdemeanors and FELONIES here people. If you don't ALREADY know the law forward and backward you better rethink your actions.

Call me rude, call me mean, call me an a$$hole for all I care, I'm trying to HELP YOU STAY OUT OF JAIL!

SQLtables · Feb 9, 2009

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Sorry I took so long to post about the lunch. I had a good time. Thank you to everybody who showed up. The restauraunt really isn't set up to handle a group bigger than 6, since you can't move tables around without blocking the walkway, but I think we managed.

As expected, everything went well, and the trip to Gander Mountain was virtually uneventful. One of the employees behind the firearms counter looked at my XD, went over to another employee and said something, and then the other employee walked over and asked me if I was an officer (apparently the other 2 in the group who were OCing didn't look like officers). I told him no, and that it's legal, etc.. and he just walked away without saying a word.

I know we already had a lunch in Birch Run, but I suppose I can start a thread to guage interest in a lunch/dinner at the Bob Evans there. Spending money at an establishment that respects our rights is just as important as NOT spending money at those that don't. Besides, I really like Bob Evans.

viperar15 · Feb 9, 2009

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i was starting to wonder if you had survived getting home from saginaw after your gig saturday night.

i just picked up my blue card today

i'm all for birch run. i'm starting to think we should start doing a weekly or bi-weekly meet, since you're already in the planning stages of birch run now.

this way we can get the word out more and people see it done more frequently, rather then just a single stop and thats the only time someone see's it.

ruger45 · Feb 9, 2009

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dougwg wrote:

ruger45 wrote:

You know i always thought and know it is confirmed you are rude and and do not have people skills and think you are a know it all.it is people like you who make it hard to even ask a ?? in this forum because you degrate them in such a way.jerry and everyone else i wish good luck too.my wife used to love this site and the talk show but because of attitude like this she has veered away from here.this is really sad it had to come to this.i hope you all do well and live a great life no hard feelings on this side.

Click to expand...

You asked for clarification. I was trying to be clear. Was I not clear?

See if you can wrap your head around this Ruger45.

We post, in this thread, that according to the law it's illegal to carry without a CPL in any place that is licensed by the liquor control act. Which means any place that sells beer, wine or liquor.

Knowing that "Meijer, Wal-mart, etc.," all sell alcohol, they are off limits to carrying non-CPL holders.

You asked:
"so if you do not have a cpl you are not allowed to go in waallmart or mieyers while open carrieing is that what this means?"

It was answered:
"Correct, nor any other place that sells alcohol."

Then I posted the two pertinent laws for review:
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

Then you ask the same question AGAIN:
"Ok, just so I'm clear on this............can we carry at Meijer, Wal-mart, etc., without a CPLor not??"

At this point it was clear that you were having a problem with wrapping your head around this issue so I answered you with nice big bold letters so it would be clear for you as it was painfully clear that you lackedthe skill to read the actual law for your self and comprehend it even though it washighlighted above.

You don't like the way I answered your question? Too bad.

You call me rude. I say I'm "to the point" and don't beat around the bush.

Maybe it would be better if you didn't OC at all. Maybe it would be better if you didn't CC with a CPL either a there are many more laws that you will have to struggle to get through that thick skull of yours.

Waaaahhhh, I asked a question and doug typed in big bold letters when he answered me....WAAAAHHHHH.

Click to expand...

Grow up.

We already have one member here that couldn't bring himself to listen to the advice of others and look what he went through and is stuck with for a few years.

You're playing with Misdemeanors and FELONIES here people. If you don't ALREADY know the law forward and backward you better rethink your actions.

Call me rude, call me mean, call me an a$$hole for all I care, I'm trying to HELP YOU STAY OUT OF JAIL!

you know you would of made a good cop you got the same i am a bad ass attitude.personaly i think it would go a lot better around hear with out you running your mouth and putting people down.O.Ki fell better now i think it might be the drugs they got me on.oh hear is a ? for you can you open carry while you are on valium?it says not to drive but nothing about open carry?????:celebrate

SQLtables · Feb 9, 2009

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viperar15 wrote:

i was starting to wonder if you had survived getting home from saginaw after your gig saturday night.

i just picked up my blue card today

i'm all for birch run. i'm starting to think we should start doing a weekly or bi-weekly meet, since you're already in the planning stages of birch run now.

this way we can get the word out more and people see it done more frequently, rather then just a single stop and thats the only time someone see's it.

Haha ye, I made it home. That's surprising after how badly the night started. Thanks for coming out, sorry it didn't go more smoothly haha. BTW, we're out at the Coast again this saturday for a V-day party

Congrats on the permission slip! Seriously.

I like the idea of a bi-weekly meeting. We can move it around the area, and even hit places other than Bob Evans

I'll start a thread in a little while.

Dinner in Saginaw

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