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Just Did The "Default Walk"

smoking357

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Glock23-4-Me wrote:
I will concede there is a default license if you concede that using said license would result in your arrest and possibly a lot of money to defend yourself.
Abso-freaking-lutely. I'm not advocating this course for anyone. Period.

I would hope the cops would call the Prosecutor and/or City or County Counsel for an opinion on the matter, but there is no guarantee that the cops would do this, and the citizen has no protection against the typical brutality and torture that accompanies an arrest.
 

glock4me

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Fair enough. Default licenses for everyone then. (just kidding)

Just curious though, why would you say that you are walking around your neighborhood under the "default license" when you also state that you would not recommend anyone do it????:question:
 

smoking357

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Glock23-4-Me wrote:
Fair enough. Default licenses for everyone then. (just kidding)

Just curious though, why would you say that you are walking around your neighborhood under the "default license" when you also state that you would not recommend anyone do it????:question:
'Cause I ain't lookin' for followers.

And because of stories like this:

http://www.540wfla.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=227698&article=5374669

"[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]CRESTVIEW, Fla. (AP) -- [/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]It happened around 1 p.m. Saturday when the two Okaloosa County deputies went to Shoal River Sporting Clays and Shooting Center in response to a call, said Michele Nicholson, a sheriff's spokeswoman.[/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Authorities say the suspect shot both deputies and took off toward neighboring Walton County, where he was shot and killed by sheriff's deputies.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]The deputies went to the shooting range while following up on a domestic violence call from Cartwright's apartment in Fort Walton Beach, authorities said. Investigators from the Florida Department of Law enforcement and the sheriff's office did not immediately release other details about the call.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]A man who answered the telephone at the shooting center near Crestview said he had no comment on the shooting.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Deputies Burt Lopez and Deputy Warren "Skip" York were pronounced dead after being airlifted to Sacred Heart Hospital in Pensacola, about 45 miles away, the sheriff's office said.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]A news release from the sheriff's office identified their killer as Joshua Cartwright, 28, of Fort Walton Beach.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Mark Illich was near the DeFuniak Springs intersection where deputies shot and killed Cartwright and witnessed the shooting.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]"It must have been like 30 or 40 shots," Illich told The Northwest Florida Daily News.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Illich said he saw one officer putting down spikes at the intersection and knew "something's about to happen."[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Then, "(Cartwright's) truck, he started coming. And we saw him, and he seemed calm as a cucumber," Illich said.[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]Cartwright veered around the spike strip, and an officer opened fire at the back of his truck, Illich said."[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]* * *
[/font]
[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"]
People are innocent until proven guilty, and the cops don't get to open fire absent an immediate lethal threat. Florida cops have a horrible reputation, nationwide.[/font]
 

JeepSeller

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Oh well...... I TRIED to be nice!:banghead:



And althought it appeard that he was too at one time, I guess bonehead justcan't. Too bad, I doenjoy agood debate.Althought, it's much more fun to have a battle ofwits with someone who'sactually armed! :lol:
 

fridaddy

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OneInThePipe wrote:
JeepSeller wrote:
Again, I see two laws that could be in conflict of each other at best to even come close to seeing your side of the coin. But, I do not see any stipulations in anything I've seen yet that gives either law any trump value over the other.

Well said.

What we have is a dichotomy where the 2 laws appear to be in contradiction. Which law trumps the other? That is for the courts to decide and when it comes to the courts (and juries) it can go either way.
The Courts have decided. The statement that the purpose of default is to put the person in the same position as if the state had approved the license. It is not your fault that you cannot comply with the statute. It is the State's. I.e. the case where the cops pulled the drunk guy out of his house and charged him with public intoxication. It wasn't his fault he was out of the house. Case was dismissed.
 

smoking357

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JeepSeller wrote:
Oh well...... I TRIED to be nice!:banghead:



And althought it appeard that he was too at one time, I guess bonehead justcan't. Too bad, I doenjoy agood debate.Althought, it's much more fun to have a battle ofwits with someone who'sactually armed! :lol:
Knock off the personal attacks. Calling me "bonehead" is completely out of line.
 

Gunslinger

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Smoking--as was written supra, you toned down your personal attacks, e.g., (me) "taking a few more college courses..." 200 plus hours probably being enough. You have some good points, but are still wrong on your initial post about a 'default' which really means de facto, NOT de jure, license. There are a lot of people on this forum who possess a lot of knowledge. Engage with them in a civil manner, and they will return the favor. You didn't start out very well.
 

smoking357

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Gunslinger wrote:
Smoking--as was written supra, you toned down your personal attacks, e.g., (me) "taking a few more college courses..." 200 plus hours probably being enough. You have some good points, but are still wrong on your initial post about a 'default' which really means de facto, NOT de jure, license. There are a lot of people on this forum who possess a lot of knowledge. Engage with them in a civil manner, and they will return the favor. You didn't start out very well.
They aren't you. They earn their retort on their words, and you, yours. Don't lump your hostile and misinformed words with those of the great posters here.

I'm absolutely correct, and you should mind your tone and your content around me, because I will call you out on each score. I will not abide attacks on gun liberty.

To that point, and in reference to the instant matter, show me a Florida case that has bifurcated the matter as you posit and has held as you suggest. Further, accepting your classification, arguendo, show us how each would lead to a different result.
 

cvickers

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Sorry to burst your bubble 357 but the Attorney General opinions are not binding on courts.



Per the info section of the Florida State AG:

Opinions of the Attorney General, however, are not law. They are advisory only and are not binding in a court of law. Attorney General Opinions are intended to address only questions of law, not questions of fact, mixed questions of fact and law, or questions of executive, legislative or administrative policy.



see at:

http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/4492d797dc0bd92f85256cb80055fb97/dd177569f8fb0f1a85256cc6007b70ad!OpenDocument
 

cvickers

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smoking357 wrote:
JeepSeller wrote:
Glock....I agree. The thread has deteriorated and I'm not too proud to take at least some of the blame on myself.

As I said, I've stated my peace. I've got no problem continuting to debate the subject, in fact, a spriited CIVIL debate is one of my passions.

But, short of concrete evidence contrary to my views, I'm pretty much reserving final judgement for the answer, if they ever get one, of the letterbeing sent to the proper authorities who, in my opinon have the final word on the subject, good or bad.
By the way, DOACS is not the final authority, far from it. They're just an agency. A final opinion binding on state agencies can only come from the Attorney General, or the courts. The AG would most likely decline to accept a request for an Opinion from DOACS, as there is already a dispositive Opinion on file. DOACS' attorneys would know better than to ask the AG about what the AG has already said. The Courts can't help DOACS, since the opinions are completely clear.

By the way, are you aware that your reference to 790.06 is a bit of lawyering? The plain reading of the statutes stops at 120.60. You propose going beyond plain reading to a second-order consequence found in the law of a specific license.

It thus follows that proving how 120.60 does not apply to 790.06 utterly misses the point; it is first necessary to prove how 790.06 is exempt from 120.60.
Sorry I misquoated you. But they aren't binding on state agencies either. They are only guidelines.
 

OneInThePipe

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smoking357 wrote:
Glock23-4-Me wrote:
Fair enough. Default licenses for everyone then. (just kidding)

Just curious though, why would you say that you are walking around your neighborhood under the "default license" when you also state that you would not recommend anyone do it????:question:
'Cause I ain't lookin' for followers.

And because of stories like this:

http://www.540wfla.com/cc-common/mainheadlines3.html?feed=227698&article=5374669

"[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]CRESTVIEW, Fla. (AP) -- [/font][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]It happened around 1 p.m. Saturday when the two Okaloosa County deputies went to Shoal River Sporting Clays and Shooting Center in response to a call, said Michele Nicholson, a sheriff's spokeswoman.[/font][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Authorities say the suspect shot both deputies and took off toward neighboring Walton County, where he was shot and killed by sheriff's deputies.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The deputies went to the shooting range while following up on a domestic violence call from Cartwright's apartment in Fort Walton Beach, authorities said. Investigators from the Florida Department of Law enforcement and the sheriff's office did not immediately release other details about the call.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]A man who answered the telephone at the shooting center near Crestview said he had no comment on the shooting.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Deputies Burt Lopez and Deputy Warren "Skip" York were pronounced dead after being airlifted to Sacred Heart Hospital in Pensacola, about 45 miles away, the sheriff's office said.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]A news release from the sheriff's office identified their killer as Joshua Cartwright, 28, of Fort Walton Beach.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Mark Illich was near the DeFuniak Springs intersection where deputies shot and killed Cartwright and witnessed the shooting.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]"It must have been like 30 or 40 shots," Illich told The Northwest Florida Daily News.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Illich said he saw one officer putting down spikes at the intersection and knew "something's about to happen."[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Then, "(Cartwright's) truck, he started coming. And we saw him, and he seemed calm as a cucumber," Illich said.[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Cartwright veered around the spike strip, and an officer opened fire at the back of his truck, Illich said."[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]* * *
[/font]
[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
People are innocent until proven guilty, and the cops don't get to open fire absent an immediate lethal threat. Florida cops have a horrible reputation, nationwide.[/font]
According to Fox News and the local Sheriff (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,518093,00.html)
In the chase that followed, Cartwright's truck flipped on its side after spikes at a roadblock punctured the tires. The soldier came out shooting, Spooner said.

Investigators say Cartwright and deputies at the roadblock exchanged about 60 rounds in 30 to 40 seconds before he was killed.
 

smoking357

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OneInThePipe wrote:
In the chase that followed, Cartwright's truck flipped on its side after spikes at a roadblock punctured the tires. The soldier came out shooting, Spooner said.
Riiiiight.

http://xs138.xs.to/xs138/09181/flipped_cartwright826.jpg

Note the Sheriff's car with a smashed nose parked under the pickup bed.

The Sheriff's car is pointed perpendicular to the direction of travel, while Cartwright's is pointed parallel to travel. Yeah, he really "came out shooting." Hahahahaha.

* * *

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/chase_16948___article.html/crestview_shooting.html
CRESTVIEW - A gunman shot and killed two Okaloosa County sheriff's deputies Saturday afternoon as they tried to arrest him for an earlier domestic violence incident.

The gunman then fled in a pickup truck to DeFuniak Springs, where he was killed in a shootout after lawmen rammed his truck. (See photos from the shootout scene here.)

Joshua Cartwright, 28, a U.S. Army Reserve soldier, shot 45-year-old deputies Warren "Skip" York and Burt Lopez just before 1 p.m. at the Shoal River Gun Club, according to the Sheriff's Office. The deputies were pronounced dead at Sacred Heart Hospital in Pensacola a short time later. (See photos from the scene in Crestview here.)
"We did lose two very fine men today," said interim Sheriff Ed Spooner. "I don't think anybody anticipated this would get to the level it did as quickly as it did."

The deputies, both of them wearing bulletproof vests, were at the gun club responding after a domestic violence call from Cartwright's home at Consul Apartments on Monahan Drive in Fort Walton Beach.

Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Michele Nicholson said Cartwright's wife went to the emergency room at Fort Walton Beach Medical Center after the 10 a.m. incident at Consul. Sheriff's deputies learned Cartwright was at the gun club and went there to arrest him shortly before 1 p.m.

The deputies Tased Cartwright before he shot them, Spooner said at a press conference Saturday night.

Not long after the gun club shooting, Cartwright was killed in what witnesses described as an intense firefight in DeFuniak Springs.

"It must have been like 30 or 40 shots," said Mark Illich, who was there near the intersection of U.S. Highways 331 and 90, where he said he saw Cartwright drive into a shootout. Walton County Sheriff Mike Adkinson later said that closer to 50 or 60 rounds may have been fired.

About 1 p.m., Illich said he saw an officer putting down spikes at the highways' intersection and knew "something's about to happen."

Then, "(Cartwright's) truck, he started coming. And we saw him, and he seemed calm as a cucumber," Illich said.

Cartwright, Illich said, veered around the spike strip, and an officer opened fire at the back of his truck. Then two patrol cars ran Cartwright off the road, where his truck overturned.

Cartwright fired at Walton County lawmen before he was killed, deputies said.

Adkinson said the State Attorney's Office on Saturday already had determined that all use of force was justified.

York and Lopez became the second and third Okaloosa County sheriff's deputies to be killed in the line of duty in the county in less than a year. The first was Tony Forgione, who died in July as the agency's Special Response Team entered the home of an armed man wanted for mental health evaluation.

Forgione was the first deputy to die in the line of duty in the county.

"Every day, you're just trying to stay out of the line of fire," said sheriff's Lt. Bobby Maloney, who responded to the scene Saturday in Crestview. "It's just devastating ... They're great deputies, great family men."

Nicholson said Lopez and York were patrol deputies in the north county who had families with children. Lopez joined the agency Oct. 5, 2003. York joined Feb. 11, 2007.

Asked if the shootings would hamper an agency already affected by suspended Sheriff Charlie Morris' alleged scandal, Spooner said, "It sure doesn't make it any easier, I'll tell you that."

All lanes of U.S. 90 near the gun club were closed after the deputies were shot. Only one lane of U.S. 90 was open near U.S. 331 in DeFuniak Springs after the shootout there.

Records show Cartwright was arrested in November 2008 on a domestic battery charge. He also had accumulated a number of driving violations over the past eight years.
* * *

Be honest. He was executed.

Further, look up "Hope Steffy."

There's good reasons for smart people to steer well clear of cops.
 

OneInThePipe

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smoking357 wrote:
OneInThePipe wrote:
In the chase that followed, Cartwright's truck flipped on its side after spikes at a roadblock punctured the tires. The soldier came out shooting, Spooner said.
Riiiiight.

http://xs138.xs.to/xs138/09181/flipped_cartwright826.jpg

Note the Sheriff's car with a smashed nose parked under the pickup bed.

The Sheriff's car is pointed perpendicular to the direction of travel, while Cartwright's is pointed parallel to travel. Yeah, he really "came out shooting." Hahahahaha.

Uh, that is the back of the car not the nose and it doesn't look damaged to me. A static image like that doesn't give much information to what happened. Did you link to the correct image?

Witnesses are often confused in what they think they saw. That may be the case here (or it may not).

Neither of us were there so jumping to a conclusion that he was "executed" is unwarranted.
 

smoking357

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OneInThePipe wrote:
Uh, that is the back of the car not the nose and it doesn't look damaged to me. A static image like that doesn't give much information to what happened. Did you link to the correct image?

Witnesses are often confused in what they think they saw. That may be the case here (or it may not).

Neither of us were there so jumping to a conclusion that he was "executed" is unwarranted.
I know. It's weird to see such a deliberate crop on that photo. Look around for the one that includes the front of the car. Anyway, the cops admit to ramming it.

Cops are witnesses, too, by the way.

The conclusion is completely warranted.
 

mavidal

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Hello all:

Been lurking on this board as this is a subject I am interested in (open carry). I honestly feel that this would deter a lot of the criminality with the robberies and rapes that do happen.

On another note, watching and reading this thread, I have to agree with smoking357's assertion that 120.60 is the operating document under which DOACS should be operating and they are not following the rules.

Case in point: I applied for my permit on Jan 13, it was received by Jan 16th as per the USPS tracking system. I did not get my green return receipt back till Feb 19th and it was dated on the receipt Feb 17th. I just received a letter from DOACS dated Apr 17th that until I submit proof of citizenship, or they will have to deny my application. Note that this is within the 90 day windows of them receiving it.

This whole process is flaunting 120.60 as the intent of the law is to make sure that state agencies do not sit on there rears when it comes to processing licenses etc. I have spoken to my brother in law and friends that have also had this happen to, and it seems that DOACS waits to send these letters out on the 90th day, instead of doing it within the 30 day window as required by statute. Now I am only referring to paperwork etc, not the rest of the process such as background checks etc. DOACS must have figured that 60 days would be enough for them to complete this.

Now I will admit it is my bad, in not including proof of citizenship, as it is clear in the instructions which I did not bother to read since I became a citizen by default in 1967 when my parent became citizens. I never really gave this a thought.

I would really like to hold the DOACS feet to the fire on this issue.

In closing, the founding fathers of this country I think were geniuses in crafting the Constitution and the Bill of Rights the way they did. Pity that we have let our government get the better of us in many aspects. This has to stop.

Mike V.
 

glock4me

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Be honest. He was executed.


======================



Rightfully so. I know I may get crap for it but I am glad they took care of him. Sure beats him getting arrested and going to jail. Sitting there for years and years at taxpayers expense or maybe he could have gotten off like O.J.



Justice Served in my book
 

Gunslinger

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smoking357 wrote:
Gunslinger wrote:
Smoking--as was written supra, you toned down your personal attacks, e.g., (me) "taking a few more college courses..." 200 plus hours probably being enough. You have some good points, but are still wrong on your initial post about a 'default' which really means de facto, NOT de jure, license. There are a lot of people on this forum who possess a lot of knowledge. Engage with them in a civil manner, and they will return the favor. You didn't start out very well.
They aren't you. They earn their retort on their words, and you, yours. Don't lump your hostile and misinformed words with those of the great posters here.

I'm absolutely correct, and you should mind your tone and your content around me, because I will call you out on each score. I will not abide attacks on gun liberty.

To that point, and in reference to the instant matter, show me a Florida case that has bifurcated the matter as you posit and has held as you suggest. Further, accepting your classification, arguendo, show us how each would lead to a different result.
I go back to my original post: you need professional help. A FL case that has 'bifurcated'? Maybe you'd better look up the definition while looking for intellectual sounding words that mean nothing in context. "Arguendo." Excellent word to describe your whole 'unsubstantiated and still to be proven' positions. Did mommy buy you a legal dictionary for your birthday?
 

smoking357

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Gunslinger wrote:
smoking357 wrote:
Gunslinger wrote:
Smoking--as was written supra, you toned down your personal attacks, e.g., (me) "taking a few more college courses..." 200 plus hours probably being enough. You have some good points, but are still wrong on your initial post about a 'default' which really means de facto, NOT de jure, license. There are a lot of people on this forum who possess a lot of knowledge. Engage with them in a civil manner, and they will return the favor. You didn't start out very well.
They aren't you. They earn their retort on their words, and you, yours. Don't lump your hostile and misinformed words with those of the great posters here.

I'm absolutely correct, and you should mind your tone and your content around me, because I will call you out on each score. I will not abide attacks on gun liberty.

To that point, and in reference to the instant matter, show me a Florida case that has bifurcated the matter as you posit and has held as you suggest. Further, accepting your classification, arguendo, show us how each would lead to a different result.
I go back to my original post: you need professional help. A FL case that has 'bifurcated'? Maybe you'd better look up the definition while looking for intellectual sounding words that mean nothing in context. "Arguendo." Excellent word to describe your whole 'unsubstantiated and still to be proven' positions. Did mommy buy you a legal dictionary for your birthday?
You need to learn some manners. Your ad hominem, vapid, irrelevant, and incorrect responses are clearly violative of the strictures of this Board, and your lack of legal reasoning is not occluded with your fog of insult.
 
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