Arrested in Detroit for Open Carrying:

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tygereye wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

tygereye wrote:

kudos for handling it well...  

Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment?  If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there...  it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..."  again, just a random thought... 

Good luck with the proceedings from here...  Wish I could have been there.

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It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...

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The paperwork I was referring to, was the information packet that we give to LEO's... 

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Ah, ok, sorry... I thought you were referring to a warrant or something to that effect.

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tygereye wrote:

kudos for handling it well...

Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.

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Thank you.

First things first: The gentleman from last Thursday could've just been some random dude who was CLAIMING to be an off duty officer. I didn't check credentials lol.

But let's assume he was honest... and let's assume that it was also a setup... it doesn't change any facts. What happened, happened.

I really don't think it was a setup, though. I walked by several LEO's unnoticed and without incident. At least one marked squad car drove by without incident. The unmarked vehicle that was approaching, in my opinion, was headed towards the building or otherwise not coming for me, specifically. It is my belief that the drive saw my sidearm and made a judgment call to throw his car in park and harass me.

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SQLtables wrote:

tygereye wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

tygereye wrote:

kudos for handling it well...

Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.

Click to expand...

It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...

Click to expand...

The paperwork I was referring to, was the information packet that we give to LEO's...

Click to expand...

Ah, ok, sorry... I thought you were referring to a warrant or something to that effect.

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Nope, but it's ok... if they had received that packet, then they should have ultimately known, that any and all persons carrying, (anywhere in that city) should be left alone... to me, with that, and the results, equals a possibility of harrassment..

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SQLtables wrote:

tygereye wrote:

kudos for handling it well...

Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.

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It probably was all about them making a point that they are tough. I don't think there is enough paper in the state to get the "necessary paperwork" for harassment like this though...

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In my humble opinion, Officer Martin went far beyond the call of duty to establish his "toughness". Little things like reading my address back to me (in the car) and telling me he knows me... telling me repeatedly that "bad things" were going to happen to me... calling me names... I believe all of these were attempts to scare me and to bolster his own ego.

Towards the end of the incident however, he started getting desperate when he knew he had to let me go. That's when he started saying things like, "Yeah you were shaking like a bitch when I stopped you weren't you?" Even then, and I'm sure he knows this, but adrenaline causes one to shake. My voice never cracked and my composure never waned. I reminded him of that.

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Veritas wrote:

tygereye wrote:

kudos for handling it well...

Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

First things first: The gentleman from last Thursday could've just been some random dude who was CLAIMING to be an off duty officer. I didn't check credentials lol.

But let's assume he was honest... and let's assume that it was also a setup... it doesn't change any facts. What happened, happened.

I really don't think it was a setup, though. I walked by several LEO's unnoticed and without incident. At least one marked squad car drove by without incident. The unmarked vehicle that was approaching, in my opinion, was headed towards the building or otherwise not coming for me, specifically. It is my belief that the drive saw my sidearm and made a judgment call to throw his car in park and harass me.

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Gotcha... you posted moments before me... either way, i agree, what happened happened, and now they will get a bit of education. I hope it goes well for you Veritas.

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Veritas wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.
.

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I disagree with the suet part of this. While the right is definately there our society is way to quick to jump on the easy $. The integrity of the group is much more important. The longterm goal is to educate and desensitise people to the legal right to carry. Just looking for a reason to sue harms the credibility of the cause.

I have a close friend who is relatively high up the food chain in the MSP. I can assure you he will not be happy with the Troopers in this situation. The overall philosiphy is to protect our rights believe it or not. This trooper and others will definately get some additional needed trainig so they do the right thing in the future.

In this situation no one was hurt and it didn't cost any money yet. Follow through and force the education of the DPD. That would include apologies and expenses incured for said education but stop short of personl gain.

JMHO.

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tygereye wrote:

Veritas wrote:

tygereye wrote:

kudos for handling it well...

Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

First things first: The gentleman from last Thursday could've just been some random dude who was CLAIMING to be an off duty officer. I didn't check credentials lol.

But let's assume he was honest... and let's assume that it was also a setup... it doesn't change any facts. What happened, happened.

I really don't think it was a setup, though. I walked by several LEO's unnoticed and without incident. At least one marked squad car drove by without incident. The unmarked vehicle that was approaching, in my opinion, was headed towards the building or otherwise not coming for me, specifically. It is my belief that the drive saw my sidearm and made a judgment call to throw his car in park and harass me.

Click to expand...

Gotcha... you posted moments before me... either way, i agree, what happened happened, and now they will get a bit of education. I hope it goes well for you Veritas.

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Thanks again.

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lechwe wrote:

Veritas wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.
.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I disagree with the suet part of this. While the right is definately there our society is way to quick to jump on the easy $. The integrity of the group is much more important. The longterm goal is to educate and desensitise people to the legal right to carry. Just looking for a reason to sue harms the credibility of the cause.

I have a close friend who is relatively high up the food chain in the MSP. I can assure you he will not be happy with the Troopers in this situation. The overall philosiphy is to protect our rights believe it or not. This trooper and others will definately get some additional needed trainig so they do the right thing in the future.

In this situation no one was hurt and it didn't cost any money yet. Follow through and force the education of the DPD. That would include apologies and expenses incured for said education but stop short of personl gain.

JMHO.

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Do you think a slap on the wrist and an hour of OC training for these officers will really correct the problem? Or do you think the city paying out money will make an impact on the department?

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lechwe wrote:
I have edited this, just i case..... but my stance is sue the hell out of them. It is truly one of our only lines of defense against local government.

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lechwe wrote:

Veritas wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.
.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I disagree with the suet part of this. While the right is definately there our society is way to quick to jump on the easy $. The integrity of the group is much more important. The longterm goal is to educate and desensitise people to the legal right to carry. Just looking for a reason to sue harms the credibility of the cause.

I have a close friend who is relatively high up the food chain in the MSP. I can assure you he will not be happy with the Troopers in this situation. The overall philosiphy is to protect our rights believe it or not. This trooper and others will definately get some additional needed trainig so they do the right thing in the future.

In this situation no one was hurt and it didn't cost any money yet. Follow through and force the education of the DPD. That would include apologies and expenses incured for said education but stop short of personl gain.

JMHO.

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My sentiments, precisely. Again (for probably the third time now) the entire point of this exercise was to educate any officers that would attempt to question me.

What I never expected was what happened. Call me crazy, but I truly did NOT expect things to unfold the way they did. I have open carried many times in many cities... even in front of officers. Never had an officer ask me a question... not once ever. So imagine my shock when cuffs are placed on me without even being asked my name. Not that I would've given it without cause, anyway.

Another point I forgot to mention: When I was asking Lt. Jackman about the reason for my detainment/arrest (before he threw his hands up at me and walked away), he motioned towards my gun. I told him that it was legal and that I had, in fact, encountered a Troy police officer while having lunch earlier in the day. He said, "Well that's Troy and this is Detroit." I responded with something to the effect of, "And this is Michigan... my rights don't change no matter what city I'm in."

As for the Troopers... I said it several times already and I'll say THIS again too: I am disappointed. Understanding that the general public views "cops as cops", I happen to view State Troopers as the ultimate standard. I can bear testimony to the knowledge that they can and DO investigate perceptions of wrongdoing in the state on levels that span from politicians to police officers. For two MSP Troopers to arrive on the scene and to fail to come to my aid... that just appalls me.

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SQLtables wrote:

lechwe wrote:

Veritas wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.
.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I disagree with the suet part of this. While the right is definately there our society is way to quick to jump on the easy $. The integrity of the group is much more important. The longterm goal is to educate and desensitise people to the legal right to carry. Just looking for a reason to sue harms the credibility of the cause.

I have a close friend who is relatively high up the food chain in the MSP. I can assure you he will not be happy with the Troopers in this situation. The overall philosiphy is to protect our rights believe it or not. This trooper and others will definately get some additional needed trainig so they do the right thing in the future.

In this situation no one was hurt and it didn't cost any money yet. Follow through and force the education of the DPD. That would include apologies and expenses incured for said education but stop short of personl gain.

JMHO.

Click to expand...

Do you think a slap on the wrist and an hour of OC training for these officers will really correct the problem? Or do you think the city paying out money will make an impact on the department?

Click to expand...

If this incident had happened "out of the blue", I would say show them no mercy. However, people went into this with the knowledge of a stronger than normal possibility of harrasment and arrest, and the knowledge of the basis of a civil suit resulting in monetary gain. I see a possible black eye for MOC here if careful consideration isn't made.

Good luck, Veritas.

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I sure as hell hope this was a setup by the DPD. THIS would be a PERFECT "color of law" lawsuit.

My goodness, Veritas, you might just retire for this.

After filing your FOIA and lawyering up, I'd consider contacting the FBI <http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/civilrights/color.htm>

I'm willing to bet they've got an ear for hearing this story of yours.

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tygereye wrote:

kudos for handling it well...

Just an observation here, but with the fact, that this was a "challenge" of sorts, between you and the officer Thursday last week, is it possible, that it was a set up, with the main intent of harrassment? If they got the necessary paperwork, and knew you were going to be there... it would be easy for this information to get "swept under a rug..." again, just a random thought...

Good luck with the proceedings from here... Wish I could have been there.

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This part pretty much implies that it was;

"I called the Lt. over to speak to me... I asked him to explain to me, once and for all, why I was detained. He said, "You know why." I said, "No I don't... as far as I can tell, I didn't break any laws." He said, "I know why you're here... I know all about it." I said, "You can assume that, but you don't really know for sure." He waived his hands at me and walked away."

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You need to make an official complaint, do FOIAs (if allowed in MI) and contact an attorney ASAP tpo see if you have enough cause for an action for damages on a contingency basis. Try the bar referral service in MI.

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SQLtables wrote:

lechwe wrote:

Veritas wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.
.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I disagree with the suet part of this. While the right is definately there our society is way to quick to jump on the easy $. The integrity of the group is much more important. The longterm goal is to educate and desensitise people to the legal right to carry. Just looking for a reason to sue harms the credibility of the cause.

I have a close friend who is relatively high up the food chain in the MSP. I can assure you he will not be happy with the Troopers in this situation. The overall philosiphy is to protect our rights believe it or not. This trooper and others will definately get some additional needed trainig so they do the right thing in the future.

In this situation no one was hurt and it didn't cost any money yet. Follow through and force the education of the DPD. That would include apologies and expenses incured for said education but stop short of personl gain.

JMHO.

Click to expand...

Do you think a slap on the wrist and an hour of OC training for these officers will really correct the problem? Or do you think the city paying out money will make an impact on the department?

Click to expand...

You make a valid point. Sometimes coughing cash from a coffer is what inspires change.

My only dilemma with this is that it comes at the expense of taxpayers.

Edited to add: Perhaps it doesn't... sometimes municipal insurance covers expenses like these.

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Taurus850CIA wrote:

If this incident had happened "out of the blue", I would say show them no mercy. However, people went into this with the knowledge of a stronger than normal possibility of harrasment and arrest, and the knowledge of the basis of a civil suit resulting in monetary gain. I see a possible black eye for MOC here if careful consideration isn't made.

Good luck, Veritas.

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+1

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Kimberguy wrote:

lechwe wrote:

Veritas wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.
.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I disagree with the suet part of this. While the right is definately there our society is way to quick to jump on the easy $. The integrity of the group is much more important. The longterm goal is to educate and desensitise people to the legal right to carry. Just looking for a reason to sue harms the credibility of the cause.

I have a close friend who is relatively high up the food chain in the MSP. I can assure you he will not be happy with the Troopers in this situation. The overall philosiphy is to protect our rights believe it or not. This trooper and others will definately get some additional needed trainig so they do the right thing in the future.

In this situation no one was hurt and it didn't cost any money yet. Follow through and force the education of the DPD. That would include apologies and expenses incured for said education but stop short of personl gain.

JMHO.

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I'm going to have to dissagree with you here. if you are doing this to find a situation so that you can make some money with a law suit, then that is wrong. But just like they make you pay a fine when you speed, or break some other law, they need to be fined for violating our rights. When it comes to be that it is costing them money, it(like many people on our highways) will slow down.
I hate people that sue, there are very few excuses i see for it, this is defiantly one of them.

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Another excellent point. If we commit an alleged civil infraction, a municipality's recourse is to fine us. It's a rare occasion indeed when the municipality offers another means of "correcting" the behavior.

I'm going to have to do some thinking on this.

I'll even go so far to say that I wish no ill harm to any of the officer's careers. However, I DO want them to be aware that their behavior is unacceptable... bar none. If they have a history of this crap, or if they do it again any time in the future, then I wouldn't lose sleep over their careers being affected. As far as I'm concerned, the problem begins much higher than the officers on the street. Whoever they report to are doing a very poor job of educating and/or keeping them in check. That's where the real change needs to be effected.

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Well done on maintaining your composure and not backing down.

I'm in the lawsuit camp. We've seen departments that did not make change after a formal complaint.Two or three that even pretended change that then did not take place, harrassment of OCers continuing after the promises of change.

If reputation is an issue, you can always give the money to your state gun rights group or a charity.

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Sequal, Kimber,

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this was trivial. One officer was definately out of line in a huge way. I would even go as far as to say that his illegal activities probably warant his termination ASAP. He will likely never be a good honest LEO. However, a large portion of the DPD can be educated. Granted you are dealing with a relativly corrupt department. I just don't think going after a large payday is the best way to go.

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Taurus850CIA wrote:

SQLtables wrote:

lechwe wrote:

Veritas wrote:

Michigander wrote:

Let me put it this way, if I was in the exact circumstance you described, I would shut up, erase the posts you've made, find a good lawyer, and sue the hell out of them. I would also send a formal complaint to the director of the state police.
.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I disagree with the suet part of this. While the right is definately there our society is way to quick to jump on the easy $. The integrity of the group is much more important. The longterm goal is to educate and desensitise people to the legal right to carry. Just looking for a reason to sue harms the credibility of the cause.

I have a close friend who is relatively high up the food chain in the MSP. I can assure you he will not be happy with the Troopers in this situation. The overall philosiphy is to protect our rights believe it or not. This trooper and others will definately get some additional needed trainig so they do the right thing in the future.

In this situation no one was hurt and it didn't cost any money yet. Follow through and force the education of the DPD. That would include apologies and expenses incured for said education but stop short of personl gain.

JMHO.

Click to expand...

Do you think a slap on the wrist and an hour of OC training for these officers will really correct the problem? Or do you think the city paying out money will make an impact on the department?

Click to expand...

If this incident had happened "out of the blue", I would say show them no mercy. However, people went into this with the knowledge of a stronger than normal possibility of harrasment and arrest, and the knowledge of the basis of a civil suit resulting in monetary gain. I see a possible black eye for MOC here if careful consideration isn't made.

Good luck, Veritas.

Click to expand...

Another good point. However I will contend that whatever my motivation for doing what I did does not change the fact that it was LEGAL and that the officer response was NOT.

If I want to dress as a clown and go to a dance club, I can expect to be scoffed at. If I were to be assaulted... then things change. My reason does not warrant the treatment.