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Bar Fight

Ian

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I personally think it's a bad judgment call to consume ANY alcohol while carrying a firearm regardless of the law.

I look at it like this:
If I had a beer with dinner and I'm carrying and get into a situation that requires lethal force, I could get screwed with a prosecutor claiming that I was intoxicated or under the influence and get strung up in court. Either way it will not help me. It's not worth it. Drink at home!
 

marshaul

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It's hard to describe decisions made under coercion (in this case, fear of state aggression without regard to demonstrated correctitude) as a function of "judgement".

It may be wise to hedge one's bets, but "judgement" is personal, and it is mine that the likelihood of me having to use my gun while or immediately after consuming a beer is very low, whereas I'd be very like to wish that I had assumed the risk were I ever actually become victim of a serious crime after consuming a beer.

Better to be judged than carried, and all that.

Of course, I respect your decision. I myself avoid unnecessary risk. But, then again, that very fact is part of why I feel comfortable with my own decision.
 

vegasche1023

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not true....if the waiter/ress testifies that you only had a beer there is no way they could say you were drunk. A 95 lb. female would have a BAC of about .04 if she drank a beer. So I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be impaired by ONE beer at dinner. I don't know about CO but in NV if your BAC is under .10 then it's not illegal. just my 2 cents ppl
 

zack991

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vegasche1023 wrote:
not true....if the waiter/ress testifies that you only had a beer there is no way they could say you were drunk. A 95 lb. female would have a BAC of about .04 if she drank a beer. So I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be impaired by ONE beer at dinner. I don't know about CO but in NV if your BAC is under .10 then it's not illegal. just my 2 cents ppl
Just because the law states you are not legally-drunk does not mean your not physically impaired. I have seen people double the limit who have zero issues and also seen people with one shot or beer in them and they where two sheets to the wind.
 

vegasche1023

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zack991 wrote:
vegasche1023 wrote:
not true....if the waiter/ress testifies that you only had a beer there is no way they could say you were drunk. A 95 lb. female would have a BAC of about .04 if she drank a beer. So I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be impaired by ONE beer at dinner. I don't know about CO but in NV if your BAC is under .10 then it's not illegal. just my 2 cents ppl
Just because the law states you are not legally-drunk does not mean your not physically impaired. I have seen people double the limit who have zero issues and also seen people with one shot or beer in them and they where two sheets to the wind.

I'm very aware of that, BUT LEGALLY drunk is all that matters in court.
 

Grapeshot

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vegasche1023 wrote:
zack991 wrote:
vegasche1023 wrote:
not true....if the waiter/ress testifies that you only had a beer there is no way they could say you were drunk. A 95 lb. female would have a BAC of about .04 if she drank a beer. So I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be impaired by ONE beer at dinner. I don't know about CO but in NV if your BAC is under .10 then it's not illegal. just my 2 cents ppl
Just because the law states you are not legally-drunk does not mean your not physically impaired. I have seen people double the limit who have zero issues and also seen people with one shot or beer in them and they where two sheets to the wind.

I'm very aware of that, BUT LEGALLY drunk is all that matters in court.
Wish it were so. What matters is the verdict - how good a job the prosecutor does vs how good a job the defense lawyer does.

IMO - I want as many pluses on my side as possible. Years ago I had a LEO testify that I admitted to drinking when my response really was "Yes, if you count one beer with dinner 4 hours ago." It was for a minor traffic ticket and I was found not guilty for other reasons - improperly calibrated radar - good advice from a LEO friend.

Nevertheless the point stands - no empty beer cans in the bed of my truck, no alcohol on my breath, 0% BAC - and the ability to confirm that I never drink and carry.

Yata hey
 

zack991

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vegasche1023 wrote:
zack991 wrote:
vegasche1023 wrote:
not true....if the waiter/ress testifies that you only had a beer there is no way they could say you were drunk. A 95 lb. female would have a BAC of about .04 if she drank a beer. So I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be impaired by ONE beer at dinner. I don't know about CO but in NV if your BAC is under .10 then it's not illegal. just my 2 cents ppl
Just because the law states you are not legally-drunk does not mean your not physically impaired. I have seen people double the limit who have zero issues and also seen people with one shot or beer in them and they where two sheets to the wind.

I'm very aware of that, BUT LEGALLY drunk is all that matters in court.
That is far from reality, a good prosecutor can make mincemeat of that argument. Simply that you may have been legally sober, but your actions say another thing. They do it on a regular bases for people who get charged with a DUI not a DWI. It is not because they failed the sobriety test, but because they are under the influence of a substance inhibiting their ability to control ones self while put others safety at risk.

The specific criminal offense may be called, depending on the jurisdiction, driving under intense influence (DUII), driving while intoxicated (DWI), operating while intoxicated (OWI), operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated (OMVI), driving under the influence [of alcohol or other drugs] (DUI), driving under the combined influence of alcohol and/or other drugs, driving under the influence per se or drunk in charge [of a vehicle]. You do not have to be drunk to be charged and told otherwise I would advise you to get better legal advise. You can get a DUI for sleeping in your car with the keys within a arms reach. They could easy destroy a case where a person had consumed alcohol or other substances. All in all what experts testify and what first responders testified, your playing with fire if you ask me.

I hope no one drinks and cleans their firearm or goes target shooting and drinks. So why would you impair yourself and carry in the name of safety. If you do then your foolish for doing so and are risking a whole lot for maybe a 3 dollar beer. Just like getting a DUI it can turn a simple 3 dollar beer into a 14,000 dollar beer. If you do have to use force and gets a person killed, it WILL put doubt in a jury and that is playing with fire. If they charge you because of it I really hope losing your rights for the beer was worth it for you.
 

marshaul

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Your position derives from a mindset which is instinctively statist.

Everything in life entails risk. Any number of things can be turned by an unscrupulous prosecutor into "evidence" against an accused.

Seriously, if you're that worried, you shouldn't carry a gun. Guess what a prosecutor is going to say about that if you're ever charged for defending yourself?

As Grapeshot discovered, admission of consumption of a single beer hours prior can prompt unscrupulous prosecution. Yet such consumption isn't illegal, and while it may be "risky", huge numbers of Americans choose to live free and consume reasonable amounts of alcohol before they drive, simply because life isn't worth living in the claustrophobic space carved out for each of us by the State.

And the problem there isn't those free Americans, its the statists who insist they shouldn't incur the "risk" of behaving in a responsible manner because the state's insistence on arbitrating the consumption of alcohol and the living of life makes those Americans a target for state aggression.

Go on, advocate a terrified populace of armed sheep.

I'll take the tempestuous sea of liberty over your calm waters of tyranny.

No hyperbole intended.

Edit: With that said, everything in moderation.

Further edit: Consider the ramifications of the argument.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that it is a given that one is, because he wants to enjoy his life, going to consume that beer. Now, imagine that, while consuming that beer (say at lunch with his family), he and family are attacked by an armed, murderous psychopath.

At this point, tell me: which is the greater risk? Which will cause more harm? The beer-drinker being disarmed, and forced to watch his family be murdered before he himself is? Or the alternative, him shooting the psycho, but later having to argue in court that his judgement wasn't impaired when he stopped the murderous psychopath after consuming a beer? Seriously, which risk poses the greater harm should it in fact occur?

Clearly, the death of one's family is the greater harm. Clearly, if one is going to consume that beer, better to be armed. At this point, your argument boils down, essentially, to "don't drink, ever".

That's fine. I kind of imagine you don't. Some of us do. Some of us trust our judgement enough that we know we would never go to a firearm after consuming alcohol (or ever, for that matter) unless we're truly faced with an alternative that is worse than going to jail.
 

ODA 226

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Etzenricht, Germany
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vegasche1023 wrote:
zack991 wrote:
vegasche1023 wrote:
not true....if the waiter/ress testifies that you only had a beer there is no way they could say you were drunk. A 95 lb. female would have a BAC of about .04 if she drank a beer. So I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be impaired by ONE beer at dinner. I don't know about CO but in NV if your BAC is under .10 then it's not illegal. just my 2 cents ppl
Just because the law states you are not legally-drunk does not mean your not physically impaired. I have seen people double the limit who have zero issues and also seen people with one shot or beer in them and they where two sheets to the wind.

I'm very aware of that, BUT LEGALLY drunk is all that matters in court.

Sorry but you are WRONG! You do not have to be legally intoxicated in Virginia to be convicted of DUI, only impaired. Example:

One of Williamsburg's finest stopped a woman on suspicion of DUI. She blew a .04. At the time, the legal limit in Virginia was .10.

As my colleague went to let her go with a warning about the dangers of drinking and driving, she said, "I'm sorry officer...only a couple of sips make me tipsy!" He immediately put her in cuffs and straight to jail. The charge stuck in court.
 

vegasche1023

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Why does everyone keep going to DUI/DWI? I've been too drunk to drive, and tell myself I'm too drunk to drive plenty of times. Therefore my judgement wasn't impaired, just my eyesight and motor skills. And as far as BAC, I am aware that one can blow a .15 and not be as impaired as someone who blew a .04. Ian's scenario was that he if he had ONE beer with dinner. I don't know how much he weighs or his alc. tolerance, but I can tell you that drinking with food will soak up alcohol(depending on what you are eating). Average time someone is eating at restaurant, 45+ minutes? There would be almost no alcohol in the system. And if no one could verify you were in fact IMPAIRED then the defense could easily convince a jury/judge that based on years of scientific research shows that you BAC was at .XX%. All my information was given to me by an ex-prosecutor, now Criminal Justice professor. There was a case a few years back(can't remember where, I'll try and find out), where an off-duty cop shot, but didn't kill an unarmed man(he thought he was). The guy was mugging someone when the LEO happened to be walking by. The pros. tried to say he was intoxicated because he had just left a restaurant and had been drinking. Defense used same thing I just used and officer was cleared of any wrong doing.
 

ODA 226

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vegasche1023 wrote:
Why does everyone keep going to DUI/DWI? I've been too drunk to drive, and tell myself I'm too drunk to drive plenty of times. Therefore my judgement wasn't impaired, just my eyesight and motor skills. And as far as BAC, I am aware that one can blow a .15 and not be as impaired as someone who blew a .04. Ian's scenario was that he if he had ONE beer with dinner. I don't know how much he weighs or his alc. tolerance, but I can tell you that drinking with food will soak up alcohol(depending on what you are eating). Average time someone is eating at restaurant, 45+ minutes? There would be almost no alcohol in the system. And if no one could verify you were in fact IMPAIRED then the defense could easily convince a jury/judge that based on years of scientific research shows that you BAC was at .XX%. All my information was given to me by an ex-prosecutor, now Criminal Justice professor. There was a case a few years back(can't remember where, I'll try and find out), where an off-duty cop shot, but didn't kill an unarmed man(he thought he was). The guy was mugging someone when the LEO happened to be walking by. The pros. tried to say he was intoxicated because he had just left a restaurant and had been drinking. Defense used same thing I just used and officer was cleared of any wrong doing.

In the case I quoted, my friend was going to let the woman go. Before he could, she made the statement that "Only a couple of sips makes me tipsy." She admitted that she was impaired.

DON'T DRINK AND CARRY A WEAPON!
 

Hawkflyer

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ODA 226 wrote:
vegasche1023 wrote:
Why does everyone keep going to DUI/DWI? I've been too drunk to drive, and tell myself I'm too drunk to drive plenty of times. Therefore my judgement wasn't impaired, just my eyesight and motor skills. And as far as BAC, I am aware that one can blow a .15 and not be as impaired as someone who blew a .04. Ian's scenario was that he if he had ONE beer with dinner. I don't know how much he weighs or his alc. tolerance, but I can tell you that drinking with food will soak up alcohol(depending on what you are eating). Average time someone is eating at restaurant, 45+ minutes? There would be almost no alcohol in the system. And if no one could verify you were in fact IMPAIRED then the defense could easily convince a jury/judge that based on years of scientific research shows that you BAC was at .XX%. All my information was given to me by an ex-prosecutor, now Criminal Justice professor. There was a case a few years back(can't remember where, I'll try and find out), where an off-duty cop shot, but didn't kill an unarmed man(he thought he was). The guy was mugging someone when the LEO happened to be walking by. The pros. tried to say he was intoxicated because he had just left a restaurant and had been drinking. Defense used same thing I just used and officer was cleared of any wrong doing.

In the case I quoted, my friend was going to let the woman go. Before he could, she made the statement that "Only a couple of sips makes me tipsy." She admitted that she was impaired.

DON'T DRINK AND CARRY A WEAPON!

I refuse to say that I agree with ODA. However ...

DON'T DRINK AND CARRY A WEAPON!

The evidence of impairment is inherent in the act itself. Alcohol and firearms DO NOT MIX!!
 

ODA 226

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He was carrying a chemical weapon...but we understand what you're saying. Still, it is bad form to begin cursing at a bouncer even when you're not drinking. ;)
 

Grapeshot

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ODA 226 wrote:
He was carrying a chemical weapon...but we understand what you're saying. Still, it is bad form to begin cursing at a bouncer even when you're not drinking. ;)
Come on! He was doing nothing wrong. He disarmed himself (well sort of), went out to get drunk but acted like a gentleman, deported himself beyond reproach, did nothing to become part of the problem. Maybe even goes to Sunday school every week. Sseesh. :p

Yata hey
 

tekshogun

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Grapeshot wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
He was carrying a chemical weapon...but we understand what you're saying. Still, it is bad form to begin cursing at a bouncer even when you're not drinking. ;)
Come on!  He was doing nothing wrong.  He disarmed himself (well sort of), went out to get drunk but acted like a gentleman, deported himself beyond reproach, did nothing to become part of the problem. Maybe even goes to Sunday school every week.  Sseesh. :p

           Yata hey

LMAO:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

simmonsjoe

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Nutczak wrote:
if the OP's story is true, or close to what actually happened, The bouncer deserved exactly what he got and more. He acted in offensive manner and got a face full of capsicum because of it. Maybe he wont be such a "Richard Cranium" to the next potential customer he does not like.

Depending on your blood-alcohol level, and the witnesses that would explain a similar story to what you have laid out, it makes me believe that the bouncer should be charged with assault & battery for his actions against you, but onlyif local law states you can defend yourself they way you did. If it is a grey area, just let it go because you may find a cop wanting to arrest you for your actions instead.

The few times I have been forced to defend myself, it always toruns out that all people involved end up in jail and they let the courts sort it out. And that really sucks!
aww what a cute way to put it.
 
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