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Open Carry Protest at Arts Beats And Eats?

dougwg

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
2,443
Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
I wasn't at any of the meetings, am I a troll?

Could it be possible that the publicity from the ABE affair piqued the interest of a fellow gun owner who has never considered open carry but realizes the fight was about more than that?

Way to welcome the possible new folks.

Bronson

Jerbear1098 and eastmeyers,

Please re-read the above quote. You guys really need to chill out with the calling people troll stuff.

Stop jumping to conclusions, it does no one any good.

We get new members all the time and everyone is different with their own ideas and opinions. Some are still suffering from the YEARS of brainwashing from the main stream media and it can take time to open their eyes.

Try a little patience.
_______________________________

Small Arms Collector,

Why not make a post and introduce yourself.
 
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Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
Here's my problem. You call for others out of state to show up with rifles? That won't make Open carry look crazy at all will it? Do I understand the long gun concept? Hell yes I carried a custom built CAR-15/M-4 when I worked in some areas of Detroit while checking on sites in areas most open carry people would avoid at night being alone. But to an art festival? Hell no. There is a time and place for everything. Your problem with Witz is not just a problem with his politics there's much more and your writing indicates such.

Your assertion that 100 people with rifles at an art festival would be positive? I think not, and in fact it would be a media feeding frenzy. You need to be smarter than your declared enemy. Now open carriers buying hot dogs with their children and family yes that would be good press.

But you are either as I said before an agent provocateur you have serious anger issues with that Witz guy and it isn't healthy. let it go we WON! Let him run his mouth and if he tries mores stupidity then we meet him on the battlefield of laws, ideals and concepts.

Quit acting as if you have deep personal issues with that Witz character.


No, I am not, I cross posted because I'm trying to create the largest turn out possible, and yes I suppose that I am taking it kind of personal with witz, he pissed me off, so "ruining" his event from his perspective makes me smile personally, however that does not change the fact that a gathering even informal in an event with as many people, and as well covered/known as this one would be a net positive in my view, a very large number of people would see us, and see that we are not dangerous, and are just like them, is that not the goal? All I'm planning is showing up Friday before 5PM, wandering through for awhile, maybe stop, and listen to some music, then go home, and that's all I'm trying to encourage others to do, I'm sorry if I fail at bringing that across.
 

Bailenforcer

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Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
Exactly! I detest the use of fighting words after we won. Protest is in your face and unneeded when we won the argument. Use of words is important here the media watches this site. Don't use words that are not meant. Now go to AB&E as a show of support, of solidarity, or to show the public we are as harmless as doves, yes I agree, but "protest" is an inflammatory word in this instance.


going somewhere where you are legally allowed to be is never a protest. members of moc and this forum know why we do not carry long guns.

what kind of cointelpro are you runnin on us?
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
Jerbear1098 and eastmeyers,

Please re-read the above quote. You guys really need to chill out with the calling people troll stuff.

Stop jumping to conclusions, it does no one any good.

We get new members all the time and everyone is different with their own ideas and opinions. Some are still suffering from the YEARS of brainwashing from the main stream media and it can take time to open their eyes.

Try a little patience.
_______________________________

Small Arms Collector,

Why not make a post and introduce yourself.

Exactly!

Not everyone will have the same viewpoint here, that is why we WORK TOGETHER to achieve our goal. Thank God for our differences as they expand our own world.
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
Now that John removed the thread you can claim such but I did see you in fact ask them to come and you suggested long guns because the Capital meet with long guns. Quit trying to back peddle I have no respect for anyone who says one thing then claims he didn't. I read that Ohio thread several times before I posted in it. I frankly couldn't believe the tone of your thread, as if we were at war almost.

Do I invite people from Ohio to come fellowship with us, yes I do we need the friendship and support but to ask them to show up with long guns was out of line and protest was the wrong way to state it as well.


Same here, I know it's more "aggressive", but I don't really see a difference, if someone doesn't have a pistol, or is from out of state what other option do they have?, I was just putting it out there as an Option in Ohio, for the non CCW holders who wanted to come, I never told them they should do it, and I didn't suggest it, I just put it out there as an option, and showed that yes indeed it was legal if they wanted to do it, and I used Lansing as an example. As you know you have to register pistols in Michigan, and if you don't live in Michigan you cant, so the only way an Ohio resident could carry a pistol here, concealed, or not is if they have an Ohio CCW as there is an exception for CCW holders, but if they don't have a CCW than what option do they have?
 

dougwg

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
2,443
Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
Here's my problem. You call for others out of state to show up with rifles? That won't make Open carry look crazy at all will it? Do I understand the long gun concept? Hell yes I carried a custom built CAR-15/M-4 when I worked in some areas of Detroit while checking on sites in areas most open carry people would avoid at night being alone. But to an art festival? Hell no. There is a time and place for everything. Your problem with Witz is not just a problem with his politics there's much more and your writing indicates such.

Your assertion that 100 people with rifles at an art festival would be positive? I think not, and in fact it would be a media feeding frenzy. You need to be smarter than your declared enemy. Now open carriers buying hot dogs with their children and family yes that would be good press.

But you are either as I said before an agent provocateur you have serious anger issues with that Witz guy and it isn't healthy. let it go we WON! Let him run his mouth and if he tries mores stupidity then we meet him on the battlefield of laws, ideals and concepts.

Quit acting as if you have deep personal issues with that Witz character.
Ever consider he's just gungho?
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
Okay Bam Bam slow down. LOL

I can't attend meetings as they are all 400 miles or more away. It would be insanity for me to do a 900 mile round trip for a few hours of fun and hand shaking. So meetings are great, and yes if people can attend then please do, but remember some of us have a life outside of Open carry or are too far away to make such an expensive trip.


You never had a reason? Really? How about to show your support when it mattered the most, when we were facing the Royal Oak city commission? Yeah how about that? Did you goto the meetings? I did, 3 of 4. I went to the first, second, and forth meetings. I don't rememeber meeting anyone who said their s/n was S_A_C, thats becasue I didn't. So yeah, you would of had a reason to join before IF you were one of US! Not now just to be a TROLL!

TROLL
 

dougwg

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
2,443
Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
Exactly! I detest the use of fighting words after we won. Protest is in your face and unneeded when we won the argument. Use of words is important here the media watches this site. Don't use words that are not meant. Now go to AB&E as a show of support, of solidarity, or to show the public we are as harmless as doves, yes I agree, but "protest" is an inflammatory word in this instance.
I agree, we must choose words carefully.

This is the same thing as I've said in the past about using the word "notify" instead of "invite" when when discussing city leaders and LEO's and OC picnics.

But geez, do you really have to crucify this guy for using the wrong word?
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
As am I, but I temper my tongue as a grown man should. To call to arms from other states to "protest" where there is none is ineffective and destructive to our cause. We need to save our protests for when it benefits us, and not the media feeding frenzy.

Ever consider he's just gungho?
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
I agree now that he answered the questions we need to slow down and take a deep breath. But so does he! It works both ways does it not?


Jerbear1098 and eastmeyers,

Please re-read the above quote. You guys really need to chill out with the calling people troll stuff.

Stop jumping to conclusions, it does no one any good.

We get new members all the time and everyone is different with their own ideas and opinions. Some are still suffering from the YEARS of brainwashing from the main stream media and it can take time to open their eyes.

Try a little patience.
_______________________________

Small Arms Collector,

Why not make a post and introduce yourself.
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
No one was crucified and you keep missing the point. Where has he admitted there was no need for protest when we won? He admits he has issues with Witz and I can understand that, but the name calling and inflammatory rhetoric is a bit over the top. I doubt that many of us are experts in linguistics but we do need to tone down the militaristic rhetoric a bit. We all know those words are not taken as seriously as the anti's or media takes them, and we must understand this.

I agree, we must choose words carefully.

This is the same thing as I've said in the past about using the word "notify" instead of "invite" when when discussing city leaders and LEO's and OC picnics.

But geez, do you really have to crucify this guy for using the wrong word?
 

dougwg

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
2,443
Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
I agree with you but ...

Put yourself in his shoes. He's being beat up from all direction, between you Jerbear1098 and eastmeyers he can barely come up for air.

Meanwhile he thought his intentions were honorable.

Instead of slapping him in the right direction maybe we could gently nudge him.
 

Bailenforcer

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,077
Location
City
I thought we were men here and not liberal whiners with thin skin...

he can take a little criticism if not he entered the wrong arena to do battle. Our enemies are far rougher than I ever have or will be on my own kind.


I agree with you but ...

Put yourself in his shoes. He's being beat up from all direction, between you Jerbear1098 and eastmeyers he can barely come up for air.

Meanwhile he thought his intentions were honorable.

Instead of slapping him in the right direction maybe we could gently nudge him.
 

ghostrider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
Warning, warning! Thread verve.
Jerbear1098 and eastmeyers,

Please re-read the above quote. You guys really need to chill out with the calling people troll stuff.

Stop jumping to conclusions, it does no one any good.

We get new members all the time and everyone is different with their own ideas and opinions. Some are still suffering from the YEARS of brainwashing from the main stream media and it can take time to open their eyes.

Try a little patience.
_______________________________

Small Arms Collector,

Why not make a post and introduce yourself.

This appears to be a growing trend on this board.

"Me, me, me."

That that type of mentality is typically associated with a mob-like mentality is often common.

It appears that some people do not grasp the concept that personally attacking, or belittling other people in some manner is just a method to compensate for one's own poor self-esteem.

My father always had a saying. "Walter Payton doesn't need to do a fancy dance after a touchdown to draw attention to how good he is. He just walks over to the ref, and hands him the ball, and lets his performance speak for him (and it spoke volumes)."


There is another concept. A respectful person is not "disrespectful." He may not embrace everyone (especially those who are disrespectful to himself), but he is not rude, he is not insulting, and he is not hurtful. He can criticize in a respectful manner, while still getting his point across. He treats others with the same courtesy with which he should treat himself. Most importantly, he must respect himself (not to be mistaken with narcissistic love). This is why a disrespectful person can not only never "be" respectful, but cannot even begin to understand what respectfulness is. With low self--esteem, and no (no such thing as low) self-respect, one's moral compass in that regard is skewed, and without the proper starting point cannot possible stay on course. Because of this, a respectful person cannot be disrespectful, because he would first have to loose any self respect. Likewise, a disrespectful person cannot be respectful, even when appearing to be so. He may be nice to people, but it is only self serving.

BOT:
Facts as we know them:
-RO, and AB&E changed the contract under duress.
-RO, and AB&E have since began active opposition to our cause, and the rights and freedoms of all, and most importantly the very fabric that once made this country great. That is the idea that all people's should be left to their own devices with as little government interference as possible.


To attain this despicable goal and affront to the people, they are going to need money. That money will come not only from the taxpayers, but also people like the gentleman from AB&E. Therefore, every form of monetary support we give them will aid them in their cause. Every form of publicity, be it good or bad, will serve to help them. Show up and protest, and there could well be a media presence reporting on it, thereby giving their cause more publicity. The more people that show up, the more it boosts their numbers. Haven't we given them enough publicity? People like that will laugh when they see the very subjects they are so ardently working to oppress, show up to patronize their event, or just show up and make it look like a more attractive event. People bring people, and showing up will aid them even if one spends no money.

I think before people take such action in an effort to fight for the cause, they should give careful consideration to any alternative method or means in which to effect the same. How about getting on every gun board and telling them the real story. This can't be done enough. Don't let our brothers in arms be mislead into believing that "this is about OC, and the freaks are just rabble rousers." Now is a great time to draw fence sitting CC'ers to the ranks by teaching them that the media lied when it reported that this was just a bunch of OC'ers making another "OC issue". Now is a great time to show how it is the OC'ers who are fighting for all rights because, "while it was much more than "OC" (it was all firearms), only the OC'ers stood up and answered the call to secure the rights of all CC'ers to carry without danger of legal entanglements at the AB&E."

OTOH,

There are always those who remain in the dark, and for them there is the faint possibility that seeing an OC'er can open their eyes, and help spread the good news.

Because of this, as much as I dislike the idea of seeing or hearing of any support going to these people, I do warm to the idea that people should just do what they normally do. Let them be the ones who tell Chicken Little that the sky is falling. Let them be the ones who are making a big stink out of something that "doesn't happen".
 

eastmeyers

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
1,363
Location
Hazel Park, Michigan, USA
You never had a reason? Really? How about to show your support when it mattered the most, when we were facing the Royal Oak city commission? Yeah how about that? Did you goto the meetings? I did, 3 of 4. I went to the first, second, and forth meetings. I don't remember meeting anyone who said their s/n was S_A_C, thats because I didn't. So yeah, you would of had a reason to join before IF you were one of US! Not now just to be a TROLL!

TROLL

I wasn't at any of the meetings, am I a troll?

Could it be possible that the publicity from the ABE affair piqued the interest of a fellow gun owner who has never considered open carry but realizes the fight was about more than that?

Way to welcome the possible new folks.

Bronson

Okay Bam Bam slow down. LOL

I can't attend meetings as they are all 400 miles or more away. It would be insanity for me to do a 900 mile round trip for a few hours of fun and hand shaking. So meetings are great, and yes if people can attend then please do, but remember some of us have a life outside of Open carry or are too far away to make such an expensive trip.

No you guys obviously are not trolls, the point I was making is that if you were a supporter of the ABE issue (enough to have a "protest") you would have been in the ABE thread showing your support. If you didn't know about this web site like he claims, you would have shown up to the city council meetings. Considering they were all over the news, and that is the same way he would have found out about the ABE issue, that he is so "gun-ho" about.

Sorry I caught him in a lie, he is a troll. Period.

He had claimed (not sure if in this thread or in Ohio thread) that he found out about the ABE issue on the news, if that was true, than he could have shown his support then, not by all of a sudden staging "protests" here.

For those of you who are starting to believe him, oh maybe this, oh maybe that, please go through this whole thread read it again, read the Ohio thread, start to end. The evidence is overwhelming. TROLL. He is trying to make us look like fools at ABE, something we worked so hard on.

Go through the ABE thread
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?76770-Arts-Beats-and-Eats
see all of the hard work that PDinDetroit, Scott623, Spriklerguy28, and EVERYONE else put in to make sure that Royal Oak fallow the law, and this guy is trying to ruin this. Don't help him get away with it, just because you don't want to offend someone people! (this is NOT pointed at anyone in particular BTW)
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
My unasked for 2 cents........

A protest ... and long guns at AB&E would, at this juncture, be seen as a protest.... of any kind is exactly the WRONG thing to do for so many reasons.... the most important of which, I believe, is that if OC and the perspective of OC'ers that doing the right thing... the legal thing... is part of our character then we must take the high road and not resort to the same tactics and behaviors used by those who wish to manipulate the law for their own ends.

And.............

After all the controversy and media hype the "win" in Royal Oak and Arts Beats and Eats has made guns, not the illegal actions of RO and AB&E!!!, an issue in many people's minds. That said please check my logic.......

To not have OC'ers show up at the festival means none of the OC'ers money goes to further Royal Oak's and Arts Beats and Eats promoter's anti gun/anti freedom agenda of pushing for local units of government being the new face of gun control laws.

I understand that concept.

To have OC'ers show up at the festival as visual proof that those who fought the illegal actions of RO and AB&E!!!! and the anti gun/anti freedom agenda.... and won... actually believe in what they are doing not only shows that those same people aren't ogres but ordinary people casts a positive light on those who fought.... and all OC in general. And that not only do they believe in what they did but also, having won, consider the win to be worth exercising.

Plus not having any OC'ers show up sends a message that those who fought are not to be taken seriously.

I understand all that too.

Now could someone please explain to me how a few hundred dollars spent by OC'ers at a festival that will likely generate hundreds of thousands of dollars.... and those few hundreds of dollars might be used to push for more gun control isn't worth the positive messages sent by OC'ers who do attend?
 

Small Arms Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
53
Location
Eastpointe, MI
No you guys obviously are not trolls, the point I was making is that if you were a supporter of the ABE issue (enough to have a "protest") you would have been in the ABE thread showing your support. If you didn't know about this web site like he claims, you would have shown up to the city council meetings. Considering they were all over the news, and that is the same way he would have found out about the ABE issue, that he is so "gun-ho" about.

Sorry I caught him in a lie, he is a troll. Period.

He had claimed (not sure if in this thread or in Ohio thread) that he found out about the ABE issue on the news, if that was true, than he could have shown his support then, not by all of a sudden staging "protests" here.

For those of you who are starting to believe him, oh maybe this, oh maybe that, please go through this whole thread read it again, read the Ohio thread, start to end. The evidence is overwhelming. TROLL. He is trying to make us look like fools at ABE, something we worked so hard on.

Go through the ABE thread
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?76770-Arts-Beats-and-Eats
see all of the hard work that PDinDetroit, Scott623, Spriklerguy28, and EVERYONE else put in to make sure that Royal Oak fallow the law, and this guy is trying to ruin this. Don't help him get away with it, just because you don't want to offend someone people! (this is NOT pointed at anyone in particular BTW)

No, your still wrong, I did not find out about this until AFTER the last meeting, and only because I stumbled across it on another board, I tend not to watch the news to much anymore. I never posted here before because I was never involved before, this thing made me want to do something, so I come here to try, and I have you pouncing all over me calling me everything from an agent provocateur, to a damned anti, when I'm anything but. You'll see for yourself when I post my video of it Saturday that I'm just a guy who cares about this, until then I suggest you loosen the tin foil.
 

Small Arms Collector

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
53
Location
Eastpointe, MI
I agree with you but ...

Put yourself in his shoes. He's being beat up from all direction, between you Jerbear1098 and eastmeyers he can barely come up for air.

Meanwhile he thought his intentions were honorable.

Instead of slapping him in the right direction maybe we could gently nudge him.

This, they get on me about not being here before, and not being at the meetings (Which were already over with when I found out about this), but then when I try to get involved, this happens. Maybe I came on strong, and I admit that, but to call me an anti, or suggest that I'm that crazy SOB with the beard?
 

dougwg

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
2,443
Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
This, they get on me about not being here before, and not being at the meetings (Which were already over with when I found out about this), but then when I try to get involved, this happens. Maybe I came on strong, and I admit that, but to call me an anti, or suggest that I'm that crazy SOB with the beard?
Yeah yeah...

You need to chill too. Relax, come to a picnic and meet some people.

I fully understand where they and you are coming from though. We that OC have been attacked from every angle for some time now. We're a bit skittish and defensive at times. It's just part of self preservation and is human nature.
 

Jerbear1098

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
50
Location
Redford Michigan
Eastmyers, I was supporting the AB&E's thread over on the MGO site. I didn't get over here until this month. Every blog and paper out there, that has written about this issue, I have replied with facts and not feelings. Sorry I didn't get over here sooner. It seems tough, everyone here is over there, so it's like one big happy family. :shocker: Just kidding.... :lol:

I personally don't think our cause would be best served by carrying an AR to the event. It's just what the anti's are looking for. Patterson would have a field day if someone showed up with one. We don't need negative publicity at this point. We won the contract victory, now show some common sense and carry responsibly. Paul, Scott and everyone else has worked too hard for this to be ruined by someone showing up with an AR strapped to his back. No one that I know of, walks around on a daily basis with a rifle strapped to their back. Someone is talking about strapping on a Rossi Ranch Hand. I don't think that needs to be there as well.

I wish I could make to AB&E's, I will be at the other second amendment event on Saturday, Ted Nugent's concert at DTE. The rest of the weekend is out for me.

p.s. PDinDetroit hope you feel better...
JMHO.... Jerbear


We are making strides, even in the CC world.

concealedcarrysign.jpg
 
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