Murray vs. Rossi

tombrewster421 said:

Has anyone here ever had waterboarding done to them? If you did, would you feel like it was torture? If it feels like it, then it probably is.

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I can't help but think of Nixon stating that if the President does it, it's not illegal. Rrrright! Don't get me wrong, watching Americans getting their heads chopped off really pissed me off and I felt at the time that we should just turn that hell-hole of a place to glass. But after I settled down a bit I realized that engaging in torture is no better than chopping peoples heads off. I think that terrorism in some of those countries is systemic and people from certain countries should be banned from coming to and being naturalized as US citizens (I am going to get hell for this one I am sure).


"In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.
"All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.
On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.
Cases of waterboarding have occurred on U.S. soil, as well. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834

"During World War II, Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, as well as the Gestapo, the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture. During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred, which included waterboarding consisting of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach. (Wikipedia)"

tombrewster421 said:

Has anyone here ever had waterboarding done to them? If you did, would you feel like it was torture? If it feels like it, then it probably is.

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I remember seeing a snippet a while back about a reporter who volunteered to be waterboarded. Even HE admitted it was NOT torture. Unpleasant and extremely effective, yes, but not torture.

Metalhead47 said:

I remember seeing a snippet a while back about a reporter who volunteered to be waterboarded. Even HE admitted it was NOT torture. Unpleasant and extremely effective, yes, but not torture.

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You are sooo right. Torture is permanate bodily damage.

Squeak said:

You are sooo right. Torture is permanate bodily damage.

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I tend to agree with this, they also said pretending to put bugs in with those afraid of bugs was torture.

The torture word is thrown around a bit too much now days, corporal punishment=torture.

Also any of those administrating these techniques had to undergo the procedure themselves.

Squeak said:

You are sooo right. Torture is permanate bodily damage.

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So psychological abuse or activities that torment the mind into thinking one thing but not the other is not torture? Psychological warfare has its place in the military, the reason, it works. Yes, there are limits to psychological warfare, as there are limits to combat warfare. Psychological torture does exist. Waterboarding is psychological torture. If the psychological torture is effective, meaning it is done right, your brain can't tell the difference...freeze, fight or flight kick in all the same. The sensation of "suffocation" is no different to your brain than actually being suffocated. That is, as long as the person being tortured isn't aware that they aren't actually suffocating. That is why some troops, FWIU, are waterboarded, so that they know what the sensation is like, and they are prepared psychologically for the natural brain response.

Metalhead:

Thank you for your example of the reporter, the only problem is, there is a difference between volunteering for something and having it forced on you.

Beretta92FSLady said:

So psychological abuse or activities that torment the mind into thinking one thing but not the other is not torture? Psychological warfare has its place in the military, the reason, it works. Yes, there are limits to psychological warfare, as there are limits to combat warfare. Psychological torture does exist. Waterboarding is psychological torture. If the psychological torture is effective, meaning it is done right, your brain can't tell the difference...freeze, fight or flight kick in all the same. The sensation of "suffocation" is no different to your brain than actually being suffocated. That is, as long as the person being tortured isn't aware that they aren't actually suffocating. That is why some troops, FWIU, are waterboarded, so that they know what the sensation is like, and they are prepared psychologically for the natural brain response.

Metalhead:

Thank you for your example of the reporter, the only problem is, there is a difference between volunteering for something and having it forced on you.

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The sheer number of people who have been "voluntarily" waterboarded (that reporter, some of our guys, even some of their guys now) with absolutely ZERO long term effects demonstrates that it is NOT torture, psychological or otherwise. If it WERE any kind of torture, we wouldn't be allowed to do it to our own troops as a training technique.

Lemme try the ol' Hannity argument on you:

Your family has been kidnapped. They WILL be tortured & killed then broadcast on Youtube. One of the kidnappers was captured during the raid. He's not talking, at least with "non-enhanced interrogation techniques." Still wouldn't want him waterboarded, given it's demonstrated effectiveness?

More over, what you do, PERSONALLY with the guy, if you were locked in a room with him?

Metalhead47 said:

The sheer number of people who have been "voluntarily" waterboarded (that reporter, some of our guys, even some of their guys now) with absolutely ZERO long term effects demonstrates that it is NOT torture, psychological or otherwise. If it WERE any kind of torture, we wouldn't be allowed to do it to our own troops as a training technique.

Lemme try the ol' Hannity argument on you:

Your family has been kidnapped. They WILL be tortured & killed then broadcast on Youtube. One of the kidnappers was captured during the raid. He's not talking, at least with "non-enhanced interrogation techniques." Still wouldn't want him waterboarded, given it's demonstrated effectiveness?

More over, what you do, PERSONALLY with the guy, if you were locked in a room with him?

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+1

When a group, in this case Al-Quaida and associated Muslim groups, decides to declare war on the US then we need to fight back using all the tools available. WAR IS NOT PRETTY!!! To "water-board" someone, and they come out of the process alive, is far better than what one sees as a result of THEIR actions. Until you have had the task of cleaning up after a bomb explosion, or actual combat, smelled the smells of death, don't pass judgement on the methods of interrogation that don't actually kill or maim the subject. If we are going to take up the battle that others have forced upon us then we should fight to WIN. Too bad the people of this country don't have the same fortitude to do battle as our WWII generation did.

Metalhead47-

You wouldn't want to know the answer to your last question in advance.

Hannity's argument sucks. The decision shouldn't be in my hands, as I would likely be irrational and capable of causing more long-term harm than good. You don't point to what an enemy does, say "see, that's wrong and horrible", then turn around and use it as an excuse for your own actions. If you would be willing to punish an enemy after the end of a conflict for engaging in a particular practice, then you, too, should abstain from doing something in the very same vein.

Considering we are not at war because Congress has not officially declared war, the "war is not pretty" argument holds no weight.

Tawnos said:

Hannity's argument sucks. The decision shouldn't be in my hands, as I would likely be irrational and capable of causing more long-term harm than good. You don't point to what an enemy does, say "see, that's wrong and horrible", then turn around and use it as an excuse for your own actions. If you would be willing to punish an enemy after the end of a conflict for engaging in a particular practice, then you, too, should abstain from doing something in the very same vein.

Considering we are not at war because Congress has not officially declared war, the "war is not pretty" argument holds no weight.

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Holds no weight? Ironic statement considering today is Veteran's day. Most of the veterans alive today did not fight in a "declared" war. YOU wanna tell them they were not, in fact, at war, and therefore it WAS pretty?

I think Hannity's argument is pretty effective considering how you're trying to skirt around it. Last I checked, we weren't planning to try the bad guys for waterboarding, we're humanely imprisoning them for things like conspiracy to fly airplanes into buildings, decapitating noncombatant civilians, bombing embassies, etc. Um, no. That's not the same vein as waterboarding. Not even the same appendage. Quite possibly a different circulatory system altogether.

Tawnos said:

.

Considering we are not at war because Congress has not officially declared war, the "war is not pretty" argument holds no weight.

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What would you call it then? People are being attacked and have died. An attack was conducted on the Continental US and close to 3,000 people died in that attack. War is War, regardless of a "declaration" or not. It's time people realize that or there will be more deaths right here at "home".

Wait until the train bombings such as occurred in Spain, or the Subway/Bus bombings like London. What about an attack on a resort area like Disney World, etc, in the style of the Mumbai attacks.

Don't think it will happen? Just remember, "You can wish in one hand, and cr@p in the other. See which one fills up first". Wishing that we won't be attacked won't be enough.

amlevin said:

What would you call it then? People are being attacked and have died. An attack was conducted on the Continental US and close to 3,000 people died in that attack. War is War, regardless of a "declaration" or not. It's time people realize that or there will be more deaths right here at "home".

Wait until the train bombings such as occurred in Spain, or the Subway/Bus bombings like London. What about an attack on a resort area like Disney World, etc, in the style of the Mumbai attacks.

Don't think it will happen? Just remember, "You can wish in one hand, and cr@p in the other. See which one fills up first". Wishing that we won't be attacked won't be enough.

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Police action
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=lC5B8u8TzCk

Squeak said:

You are sooo right. Torture is permanate bodily damage.

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I'm not saying that there are not times that require the use of torture, but if you look at the definition of it, "extreme anguish of the body, or MIND" is right there. Waterboarding should therefore be classified as torture. I think it's probably the most humane form of torture available to us. And like I said, sometimes it is called for.

tor·ture [tawr-cher]
-noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
-verb (used with object)
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

tombrewster421 said:

I'm not saying that there are not times that require the use of torture, but if you look at the definition of it, "extreme anguish of the body, or MIND" is right there. Waterboarding should therefore be classified as torture. I think it's probably the most humane form of torture available to us. And like I said, sometimes it is called for.

tor·ture [tawr-cher]
-noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
-verb (used with object)
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

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I was tortured once...............................my friend stole my girl!

tombrewster421 said:

Police action
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?xl=xl_blazer&v=lC5B8u8TzCk

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Riiiight. Since treating terrorist attacks like petty criminal acts worked SO well during the Clinton years.:banghead:

Tawnos said:

Hannity's argument sucks. The decision shouldn't be in my hands, as I would likely be irrational and capable of causing more long-term harm than good. You don't point to what an enemy does, say "see, that's wrong and horrible", then turn around and use it as an excuse for your own actions. If you would be willing to punish an enemy after the end of a conflict for engaging in a particular practice, then you, too, should abstain from doing something in the very same vein.

Considering we are not at war because Congress has not officially declared war, the "war is not pretty" argument holds no weight.

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You've never been to war, have you.

Metalhead47 said:

Riiiight. Since treating terrorist attacks like petty criminal acts worked SO well during the Clinton years.:banghead:

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I wasn't saying that at all. I'm just saying that since congress did not declare war, then under the constitution, we are not at war. We are merely acting as the world police. That's why so many countries hate us.

Add
If it really is a war, then it's an illegal one because it goes against the constitution.

amlevin said:

+1

When a group, in this case Al-Quaida and associated Muslim groups, decides to declare war on the US then we need to fight back using all the tools available. WAR IS NOT PRETTY!!! To "water-board" someone, and they come out of the process alive, is far better than what one sees as a result of THEIR actions. Until you have had the task of cleaning up after a bomb explosion, or actual combat, smelled the smells of death, don't pass judgement on the methods of interrogation that don't actually kill or maim the subject. If we are going to take up the battle that others have forced upon us then we should fight to WIN. Too bad the people of this country don't have the same fortitude to do battle as our WWII generation did.

Metalhead47-

You wouldn't want to know the answer to your last question in advance.

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I am not making a moral judgment about waterboarding, I am just saying that it is torture. Whether it is legal or not has been determined by the US and international courts to in fact be torture, and has been tried an illegal act. Within the law it has been considered torture. Would I lose sleep at night knowing that some terrorist is being waterboarded, hell no. I have already said that if you are plotting a terrorist attack or have committed a terrorist attack against the US, you should be executed.

Advanced Interrogation Techniques are just a fancy word for torture, let's be real here. If it is torture than just admit to it and move on. The real question that should be asked by American when Bush permitted torture is, "do we as a society want our government to be torturing people, if so, under what circumstances, and if not, what are the consequences for the administration that permits it?" Of course, there are no consequences when a President commits a crime, well, no criminal consequences, only political...they are above being convicted of a crime.

I think that I have the same fortitude to deal with the realities of war. What I don't have a fortitude for is someone calling torture something else. If it is torture, which it is, than say it. There does not have to be a physical harm element involved for torture to have occurred, just my opinion.

Hannity is nothing more than a wannabe news caster. He regurgitates the same crap every night and all of the right-wingers sop it up like it's news.

Squeak said:

You've never been to war, have you.

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You don't have to have gone to war to question whether something is Constitutional or not. Service members are patriotic people, so are non-service members. I am against drafting, I think that people should be able to choose whether or not they want to serve our country...basically, they choose to enlist and serve. Don't think that your service, as patriotic as it is, should be recognized. You either served because you love your country or because you love the attention, the latter, as far as I am concerned, you are not a patriot, just an attention queen.

There are hundreds of millions of patriots that wake up everyday and educate Americas children, build cars, pave the roads, haul goods across country, etc...some of them even die in the process of doing their job as productive members of America.

tombrewster421 said:

I wasn't saying that at all. I'm just saying that since congress did not declare war, then under the constitution, we are not at war. We are merely acting as the world police. That's why so many countries hate us.

Add
If it really is a war, then it's an illegal one because it goes against the constitution.

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There hasn't been a declared war in over 50 years. Yet in each case, the presidents acted WITH THE AUTHORIZATION OF CONGRESS. Therefore, it is constitutional. What you call being "world police, I call protecting our national & strategic interests. And defending the occasional ally. If you recall your history, we tried isolationism in the first half of the 20th century. It was a dismal failure, and got us into two world wars that far exceed anything we've been involved in since.

This whole idea that "if we just left everyone alone they wouldn't hate us" is, IMHO, very naive. Especially from a "gun person." Why do we all carry in the first place hmm? We generally don't bother anyone, other than simply exercising our rights. We certainly don't try to play police (well, most of us). Yet we all realize that even if we don't bother anyone else, there are still others out there who wish to do us harm. Sometimes they have a reason, often lots of excuses. Sometimes there's no reason. Yet they still hate.

So many countries hate us because they hate our liberty, they hate our success, and they hate our exceptionalism. We went from a little backwoods colony to the single most powerful nation on earth in barely 200 years. And we did it while our people enjoyed an unprecedented level of personal liberty, even while we continued to define that liberty through very trying times. We still don't have it perfect, but what we have is FAR, FAR BETTER than most places on earth. And THAT is why they hate us.

Beretta92FSLady said:

Hannity is nothing more than a wannabe news caster. He regurgitates the same crap every night and all of the right-wingers sop it up like it's news.

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Hannity is not a newscaster, nor does he pretend to be. He is a biased political commentator and does not deny that. That makes him very different from the "objective newscasters" on CNN, MSNBC, et al who regurgitate the same crap every night that the left-wingers sop up like it's news.