cbnlnk121
Regular Member
I know I'm asking for trouble but ...
He said HANDGUNS! Where was the mention of an individual?
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With Regards to Rights
- Thread starter Rich B
- Start date
I know I'm asking for trouble but ...
He said HANDGUNS! Where was the mention of an individual?
You know what? emsjeep is right.
Rich B, while I appreciate and respect everything you are doing on this site, and your own site I feel emsjeep is right. You are portraying that open carrying in CT is a smart idea. When I first found this site, I thought about open carrying instead of concealed carrying. After all, the law is open to interpretation regarding open versus concealed carry. But after reading emsjeeps post, and reading and actually hearing your run ins, I feel you are causing a lot of turmoil that is unnecessary in our state. Why are you doing this? Why are you creating this hassle for yourself? What are you looking to gain?
Have you ever traveled to VT? It's an open carry state, how many people do you see actually exercise that right? I've been going up there my enter life and never once seen anyone carrying openly.
Why can't you just conceal like 99% of us do? After reading a few posts its really you and 4 other people who even contribute regularly. Do they actively open carry? I don't see many of them writing about their issues and recording their run ins.
Would I like to open carry, hell yea. Is it worth ruining my day over, nah, I just wear a long shirt and go about my daily life.
And one final thing. I listened to your run in on 10-16. You are not as confident on record as you are behind the keyboard.
G
Guntechie
Guest
I am going to stand up for Rich here (OK I'm new to the forum, but am on others). I fully support Rich and his ideas, if not necessarily his tactics. I take serious exception to "Why can't you CC like 99% of the rest of us. I will not speak for Rich, but I realised recently how very lucky we are in CT to be able to choose our mode of carry. By limiting carry to EITHER open or concealed you restrict everyone's right to keep and bear arms.
For example. If I choose to carry my Ruger openly in the summer, it is still in my very comfortable IWB holster. If I go to NH (where I am not permitted and must open carry when I carry) that could be construed as Concealed, and I get arrested. But if OC were Illegal here in CT, I would be guilty of Open Carrying. If OC is illegal, now you can be charged with a crime for printing, etc. On the other hand, if I am in NH and it is 20 below, how am I supposed to maintain OC without freezing my ass off?
Ok yes that is a bit sarcastic, obviously there are ways of accomplishing that goal. My point is if we loose the right to Open Carry EVERYBODY (including the 99% of us who CC) looses, and EVERYBODY is subject to more legal hassle...
I just cited 2 examples where I MIGHT be guilty of violating BOTH Concealed AND Open carry, carrying the same way. Like I said, it's a little bit of an over the top example, but I think I've made my point.
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Rich B
Regular Member
Nope. Not even a single time. I have only said it is perfectly legal. And I have been an example of this a few times now.
No. No it is not. The law is very clear.
Interesting. I have the opposite feeling. I am working pretty hard to try and limit (end) the turmoil in this state. I have seen nothing good come from the trolling and FUD spread by the people who post things like "but you can still be arrested!" or "but the law is vague!" on this site and your post is a good example of the turmoil those trolls create.
Being afraid of being arrested when engaged in completely lawful activities is just silly. Trying to convince others to share your fear is unfortunately human nature.
I have the same thing to gain as anyone else in Connecticut does; the right to carry as we choose without fear of threats, intimidation, harassment, false arrest and detainment by the police.
Many times.
Plenty, but I fail to see how this is relevant either way.
I have no idea how this sentence has any relevance.
Why can't you respect everyone else's choice of carry like 99% of us do?
Ah, an appeal to common practice. That rounds out the logical fallacies.
You clearly don't read the forum or attend the meetings like I do then. I hear of these incidents all the time. I just happen to make a lot of noise about the issue.
I would hope so since you are on a forum that is strictly about open carry. Although I must say, your post reeks of anti language and behavior.
Good for you. I certainly respect your right to conceal. Let me be the first to say "You are welcome" from the rest of us who are actually contributing to the fight to make sure you have the right to keep concealing and the fight to make sure that if you print you won't be arrested.
I will hold off commenting on your personal attack until I hear of your first contribution.
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You think I'm a troll? Seriously?
I now have less respect for you Rich. Because I view the law and my "Permit to carry" different than you, you accuse me of being a troll? You think I am spreading fear? Rich, I am portraying the other opinion and other side of open carry. If you fail to read that, then you are failing in your efforts to prove that open carry is "legal" in our state. The law is open to interpretation, all law is. This is why we have lawyers, court, and appeals. Maybe if you understood that you would get further in your confrontations.
You fail to see the other side. Our state is not pro gun, it has never been. It's not just the elected officials making it this way. It's the people of our state. Many people are afraid of guns, many people don't understand the "Open Carry Movement". By advocating open carry, and causing people to strike fear within themselves is a waste of your time, as well as the city/state's time. The more we can be off of the public's radar the better. People associate guns with violence, not protection. Police are not the problem. It's the public. For that we can thank all the thugs of Hartford. Gun laws make it difficult for law abiding citizens to obtain guns. Bad people can get them much easier.
Go ahead, pick this post apart like you do to everyone who posts another opinion other than yours. My last part was NOT a personal attack. It was an objective constructive criticism, if you see it as anything other than that I apologize. Calling people who view the law differently than you are not TROLLS.
One final thing, I don't print when I carry. It is a responsibility that I have to ensure my safety is protected and I will not have any hassle from the law.
I now have less respect for you Rich. Because I view the law and my "Permit to carry" different than you, you accuse me of being a troll? You think I am spreading fear? Rich, I am portraying the other opinion and other side of open carry. If you fail to read that, then you are failing in your efforts to prove that open carry is "legal" in our state. The law is open to interpretation, all law is. This is why we have lawyers, court, and appeals. Maybe if you understood that you would get further in your confrontations.
You fail to see the other side. Our state is not pro gun, it has never been. It's not just the elected officials making it this way. It's the people of our state. Many people are afraid of guns, many people don't understand the "Open Carry Movement". By advocating open carry, and causing people to strike fear within themselves is a waste of your time, as well as the city/state's time. The more we can be off of the public's radar the better. People associate guns with violence, not protection. Police are not the problem. It's the public. For that we can thank all the thugs of Hartford. Gun laws make it difficult for law abiding citizens to obtain guns. Bad people can get them much easier.
Go ahead, pick this post apart like you do to everyone who posts another opinion other than yours. My last part was NOT a personal attack. It was an objective constructive criticism, if you see it as anything other than that I apologize. Calling people who view the law differently than you are not TROLLS.
One final thing, I don't print when I carry. It is a responsibility that I have to ensure my safety is protected and I will not have any hassle from the law.
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Rich B
Regular Member
Your second post on a site devoted to open carry is one that is full of illogical arguments against open carry. I would say that is the definition of trolling.
No, I think you are wrong. The trolling is a different issue.
Yes, but you are not the only one.
And you think that is appropriate for a site strictly concerning open carry? Do you go to vegan forums and tell them they are wrong and 'just creating turmoil'?
I am not trying to prove that at all. We already know open carry is legal in this state. I have no doubts of that.
Feel free to show where the law says anything about concealment, or for that matter refutes anything I have asserted. As for my 'confrontations' I would say I have done just fine in all of them, thank you.
Luckily laws and rights are not decided by popular vote. Otherwise you could kiss your concealed carry goodbye as well. We have all heard the Brady arguments plenty here. Thanks for the repeat lesson.
Ok.
That is not the case. Beyond that, I invite you to look up the definition of an internet troll.
At least you think you don't print while you carry. Maybe you don't, maybe you do. Considering the police are not likely to hassle someone for printing or for OCing, I doubt you would know if you did print. I cannot share your implied opinion that people who print or OC are somehow bad. I don't live in fear of people knowing that I am a law abiding citizen who is armed.
Believe what you want, carry how you choose. But please don't give me the holier than thou approach to hating freedom.
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OK, let me be clear:
1) Open carry, the very act itself, IS, to the best of my understanding, legal.
2) I have no issue with open carry, I have open carried, and I am not sold on the argument that open carry shouldn't be practiced when and where it might cause outrage leading to a restriction of those rights. While I don't believe this myself, I understand that many people do, and the point is not without its merits, but being somewhat principled, I would rather lose it by reactionary legislation than be frightened into abandoning the right on my own.
3) I believe that people can and should open carry but on a practical level, I believe that you should a) receive some training on retention and use a retention holster, b) be aware and fluent in the applicable laws, and c) be aware of the potential risks of engaging in the behavior; mischaracterization of the potential outcomes serves no ones interests in the end.
My concern is that the potential and likely outcomes, and the degree of protection afforded by the law, are being misrepresented here; the terms, "illegal detention," and "unlawful arrest" get thrown around, I see people stating, "You can't be lawfully arrested for DC/BOP just for peaceably open carrying," "Detentions for open carry are unlawful, Goldberg and Burgess were dismissed, now we are protected." Simply untrue. Goldberg and Burgess have not changed the law, policy, maybe, as indicated by the CSP policy statement, but local coverage may vary. OC, but be aware that you may be arrested, know the facts as provided in a CONSERVATIVE and objective assessment, and make your decisions based on that information. I think that is fair.
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Rich B
Regular Member
Rich B
Regular Member
I have no idea where people get these ideas. I open carry just about every day and just about everywhere I go. I spend plenty of time in and around New Haven. I have never had an issue in New Haven and I have walked right by LEOs downtown on club nights. Not to say it won't happen someday, but New Haven has not proven to be OC unfriendly yet.
If there was anything even close to 1% interaction across CT, I would be surprised.
One issue I have is that I really don't have a good sense of how many people are out there doing this, and so while I have a very firm grasp on PA having been there for a number of years, I'm still developing a sense of what my odds are in CT...they are subjective and subject to change, I fully admit that, but they are personal and I don't suggest people follow my assessment on that for obvious reasons. Degree of legal protections should any of those situations arise is relatively objective though, and is based on more concrete facts more immediately available.
Rich B
Regular Member
I don't see how that matters, and you certainly did not qualify it. I have been OCing in this area and all over the state since April and I have had exactly two police incidents. Considering how often I am out and about and the fact that I do not stick to gun stores and 'OC friendly' places at all, I can safely say that I have been around thousands of people in probably hundreds of businesses in dozens of towns.
50% interaction would imply that I should be getting hassled a LOT more. (Dozens of times? Over a hundred?)
Again. Nothing but FUD.
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Well, considering you were arrested for DC and Goldberg for BOP and civil judgments have not bee forthcoming, I would have to say that in the complete absence of other evidence I see no reason why the practice wouldn't continue save the indefinite and questionably applied change in policy...which, to me, being particularly risk averse because of my professional obligations, is not enough.
This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say you are being unclear:
"The simple fact is that there is no circumstance where you can be arrested for open carry if you have a permit in the state of Connecticut."
-I think we all understand that Open Carry is not a crime. I've heard you say a half dozen times what you said in the context of this quote: "You may be illegally detained and/or arrested when you are doing anything, that has nothing to do with OC, that has to do with LEOs who should not be LEOs." That is understood, and you are correct to a degree, and in principle but it completely ignores the fact that the gun draws attention. If you send two guys out onto the street one with a rutabaga strapped to his belt and one with a pistol, who's more likely to draw an interaction? be arrested?
"Up until recently, the old standby for LEOs has been that you may be arrested for OC if someone panics or causes a disturbance because of your OC. That has been proven wrong several times now, most relevantly in my case."
I see non-binding, unreported, non-precidential examples that have influenced policy...policy is subject to wide interpretation and change without notice. You say that the standard that you can be arrested for BOP/DC etc. has been proven wrong....maybe, but not conclusively, and not in a legally binding precedential manner, and to quote you, "The only thing that matters is what the law says."
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One, I don't know what FUD is...two, its my opinion based on the facts I have been able to gather, three, a sample size of ONE guy is hardly telling of anything...alternatively I Open Carried in PA for some time and had exactly zero encounters one 8yr old that asked me if it was legal and knew more people than I could count that had NEVER had an encounter of any kind...I'm looking for information here, there is no need to be condescending...
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Rich B
Regular Member
Legal issues take time. I advise you to lurk on the forum and read more about these cases before you assert things like this. I see you won't cite anything that says those arrests were justified though.
Nor is it relevant. It is a given fact with OC and is pretty much the whole point of the OC movement across the nation. It is surprising to me that you think this has somehow escaped everyone's attention except for your own.
Please explain the last time you heard of someone being arrested for OC and the charges standing.
Rich B
Regular Member
Google gives you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
Show us these 'facts'. Where have you seen statistics of open carriers being interacted with by the police 50% of the time?
Nor are unsubstantiated claims to a forum that there will be 50% interaction with open carry. My experiences would tend to garner more support though I suspect.
So you admit there were no interactions that you knew of contrary to the statistics you supplied. Where do your statistics come from?
You are the only one providing a condescending attitude here. I am simply stating the facts of my experience. That is what I always do here. You are trying to make it sound like people here are attempting to bait other people into doing things that will get them arrested.
The forum has nothing to do with what is or isn't legal precedent. Legal facts that cannot be substantiated by a search of Westlaw/Lexis or Official Reporters, didn't happen, and in many cases aren't citable as a rule even if you could come up with them. Some courts even refuse to recognize unpublished but reported cases, ie. "Check court rules before citing." If I wanted to use the information contained on this forum in a brief I couldn't cite to anything but your posts...
Again, the issue is not prosecution for BOP/DC incident to Open Carry, it is arrest/detention, and seeing as these arrests occur, and there is no legal precedent prohibiting them, all sense says that they very well will continue, with the one minor caveat of the CSP policy memo, which is, again, not law.
I'm not addressing the numbers, the concept is a personal assessment based on a subjective evaluation of the totality of the circumstances, and I make nor made any claim that the numbers themselves were derived from quantifiable facts nor that they were correct to anyone including myself; they probably aren't and weren't meant to be, except, potentially in proportion to one another. You missed the point.
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Rich B
Regular Member
Again, congratulations with getting on track with the forum. That is what we are working on and fighting against.
It was FUD. There was no reason to post it, and it is very likely to have people interpret it in such a way that they will be fearful of activities that are entirely legal.