What does, a dog, no knock, WAC, and ATF, have in common?

amlevin · Dec 15, 2010

olypendrew said:
Isn't the Aryan Nation largely comprised of Caucasians?

If not totally. Last I heard they were also anti-semitic too.

What's funny about this is that the founder of the Aryan Nations, Richard Butler, apparently was unaware that the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian was actually a major contradiction. The founder of the church combined British Israelism that believed the British were descendants of one of the lost tribes of Israel, believed only whites had souls, and Anti-Semitism. First they believed they were descendants of Israel and then they hate all Semites. Talk about contradictions.

Just an interesting point---or not.

As for Idaho and the Aryan Nations, what few members they have left are followers of three successor groups based in New York, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina. Probably none left in Idaho. As for the "Aryan Brotherhood" you can find "chapters" in every penal institution in the US. Not the same though as they have a different religion that is more akin to cannibalism.

BigDave · Dec 15, 2010

END_THE_FED said:
Actually I, in my other post, mentioned that it might be things he said in other threads or something I missed. That is part of why I asked the question. If I thought it was purely this thread that prompted the question I probably wouldn't have botherd asking.

Where do you say WHITE?........ Well, I guess you didn't. You asked if he was "Aryan Nations". I am sorry, I didnt realize you were referring to that little known sect of the "Aryan Nations" that advocates "Mongoloid supremacy".

A note to some who may be ignorant on the matter: The term "Mongoloid" is an anthropological term for a race of people, as opposed to the "Caucasoid" race the Aryans are part of. It should not be confused with the "racist" term of a similar sound.

And yet you continue to try and change what I have said, it was in the relationship if any to different extremist groups, nothing was implied as being racist except for others comments, they were theirs and are not mine.

Fed, are you in one of those extremist secs also?

END_THE_FED · Dec 15, 2010

BigDave said:
And yet you continue to try and change what I have said, it was in the relationship if any to different extremist groups, nothing was implied as being racist except for others comments, they were theirs and are not mine.

Fed, are you in one of those extremist secs also?

In my previous post I said that you asked if he was a member of the "Aryan Nations".
I rephrased that as white supremacist. Most of the members of that group are white supremacists.
I had no intention of misconstruing your statements, perhaps I misunderstood them.

The term "extremist sect" is too ambiguous. I don't know what you mean or what others will think you mean. If you have a more specific question, I will answer it.

I will say that I am not now, nor have ever been, a member of the "Aryan Nation" or any other group that advocates Racial supremacy.

gogodawgs · Dec 15, 2010

END_THE_FED said:
I will say that I am not now, nor have ever been, a member of the "Aryan Nation" or any other group that advocates Racial supremacy.

UH, well I am a member of the Human Race and the Human Race is superior to all other living things on this planet.

END_THE_FED · Dec 15, 2010

gogodawgs said:
UH, well I am a member of the Human Race and the Human Race is superior to all other living things on this planet.

Damn, You got me.:lol:

amlevin · Dec 15, 2010

gogodawgs said:
UH, well I am a member of the Human Race and the Human Race is superior to all other living things on this planet.

And yet, when we're gone (the human race that is), the only thing left on this planet will be insects. Now who's superior?

1245A Defender · Dec 15, 2010

Back on topic,,,

latest from the Kitsap Sun news paper....

TACOMA —
Federal agents raided the homes of four people last month who they believe were buying and selling firearms at area gun shows without the proper licensing and paperwork.
One of the men whose home was raided was Roy Alloway, a retired Bremerton police officer who lives in South Kitsap. The others homes were in Belfair, Bremerton and Olympia, according to a search warrant filed in U.S. District Court in Tacoma by agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
An ATF spokeswoman said the man from Olympia, David Devenny, was arrested, but he has been released on bond. Federal prosecutors have charged him with two counts of sale of a firearm to a prohibited person, according to court documents.
The three others haven’t been arrested. Only Devenny has been charged with a crime.
The common theme among the men is that they bought guns from federally licensed gun dealers but sold them as private citizens, which is illegal unless the gun has been in an individual’s personal collection for a year. The feds also claim the men didn’t fill out the required paperwork for selling guns.
Those were the central points the ATF used to justify attaining search warrants.
“It became obvious that many of these private sellers were in the business of selling firearms and not simply selling guns from their private collection,” the application for the search warrant said.
The ATF wrote that “some individuals regularly rented space at the gun shows, always had a large number of handguns for sale, and rarely generated any paperwork other than a written receipt required at certain gun shows.”
And further, the ATF alleges, some guns fell into the hands of criminals. The ATF accuses the Olympia man, Devenny, of unlawfully selling the gun that was ultimately used to kill Seattle Police Officer Timothy Brenton in October 2009.
Undercover agents posed as interested buyers at various gun shows, recording both video and audio conversations with the “targets” of the probe, the ATF said.
The ATF started an investigation into the Belfair man after his federal firearms license had elapsed in 2006. Agents claimed he continued to purchase and sell quantities of guns at local shows in 2009.
The ATF accuses the man of a scheme of buying new guns from federally licensed dealers and then selling them at guns shows without the paperwork.
While investigating the Belfair man, agents noticed him working with the Bremerton man, and they began an investigation on him as well, sending undercover operatives to record conversations with him. ATF wrote in court documents that he admitted he was selling guns for profit and, when asked about doing paperwork to record the transaction, he replied: “Not with me, I don’t do paperwork.”
The ATF wrote that the Bremerton man felt it was “too much of a hassle to deal with the requirements” of being a federal dealer, and that he, too, didn’t possess such a license.
The ATF claimed that guns sold by either the Bremerton or Belfair man were found:
—on a felon arrested for unlawful possession of a firearm by Lakewood police;
—at an officer-involved shooting incident in January 2010 north of Seattle.
The investigation into retired police officer Alloway, a longtime drug detective, is unrelated to the Bremerton and Belfair men. The ATF wrote that Alloway was seen with another man who is a former police officer “purchasing a large number of guns and frequenting gun shows,” the ATF wrote. An ATF special agent contacted them — after they’d allegedly been selling guns — and told them they were in violation of the law, the ATF wrote.
So they started an application process to create a business called Renegade Guns and Loans.
But the ATF alleges that Alloway continued to buy guns — about 163 of them from 2006 to 2010 — and that he transferred them from his business to himself. He then sold firearms “as a private seller” at local gun shows.
The ATF wrote that those federally licensed can indeed transfer firearms to themselves to add to their personal collection, but they must wait at least one year before selling them.
The ATF accuses Alloway of “funneling” guns from his federally-licensed firearms business — where he had access to better prices — to himself, and then selling them soon after. ATF also accuses Alloway of not filling out the required paperwork on the guns he sold to undercover agents.
The last target listed in the probe was Devenny, who was investigated in May 2009. The ATF wrote that the man had purchased numerous guns and was selling them at gun shows without filling out the proper paperwork. One of the guns he sold was used in the killing of Seattle Police Officer Timothy Brenton in October 2009, he allegedly admitted to an undercover agent, the ATF wrote.
The raids by ATF on the properties occurred over two days in November. They were:
—On Broad Street in Bremerton on Nov. 18. ATF seized firearms and financial documents and business cards to go with more than 140 guns of varying types and calibers.
—On Alder Creek Lane in Belfair on Nov. 18. ATF seized four guns — three of which the feds called .30-caliber machine guns — along with mail addressed to the Belfair man.
—On Old Highway 99 in Olympia on Nov. 19. ATF seized business cards, gun-show advertisements, more than $30,000 in U.S. currency and a tax return.
—On Phillips Road in South Kitsap on Nov. 18. ATF seized financial documents, business cards, a firearms ledger, other documents and more than 50 guns.
Attempts to reach Alloway on Wednesday were not successful.

© 2010 Kitsap Sun. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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Read more: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/...p-residents-raided-for-guns-by/#ixzz18CpVwcg3

as i mentioned before the bremerton man is the friend of my friend as stated in the OP.

now you may all go back to your argument about who said what about nations or colors or whatever.....

ManInBlack · Dec 15, 2010

amlevin said:
Can you provide some factual basis for this statement? Please cite instances where police officers involved in shooting citizens have been "returning veterans" from a combat zone.

I'm sure that many officers are/were reservists and were deployed at one time or another. Where are the statistics that they are more likely to shoot someone.

All I said was that it was unrealistic to expect people to return from a situation in which they have to shoot first and ask questions and immediately switch their mindset to protecting persons, property and rights. I never said that they would begin shooting up civilians, or even that they are more likely to.

END_THE_FED · Dec 15, 2010

Thanks for the update 1245A Defender, and for bringing us back on topic, it was much needed. I had allowed myself to stray too far.

ManInBlack · Dec 15, 2010

Trigger Dr said:
Do you live in and/or frequent the Hayden Lake area of Idaho?
I am not making any inference, just asking.

BigDave said:
Okay I will then, ManInBlack does your address include COMPOUND in it anywhere?

BigDave, do you still want to carry on with the obvious lie that you weren't intending to imply that I am a member of hate groups? Your own words speak for themselves. I accept your apology for defaming me, but I'm not sure if the English language can ever forgive you for the grievous bodily injuries you've inflicted upon her with a large knife used by professionals in the meat processing industry.

amlevin · Dec 15, 2010

ManInBlack said:
All I said was that it was unrealistic to expect people to return from a situation in which they have to shoot first and ask questions and immediately switch their mindset to protecting persons, property and rights. I never said that they would begin shooting up civilians, or even that they are more likely to.

Aggravating the problem is that many cops are reservists or prior service who are returning as occupiers from a 360-degree battlefield, where to stay alive, they often have to shoot first and ask questions later. To expect them to then immediately change their mindset to one of respecting individual rights and liberties is, I believe, unrealistic

The complete quote certainly implies that this is a problem to be expected. This has been an argument that goes back to when departments all over the country were hiring the "baby killers" who returned from Viet Nam.

Even those in combat zones that "shoot first" are a very few considering the total number that are deployed at one time or another. Even the suggestion that it might happen among the returning "reservists" deserves some factual basis in the form of a citation.

ManInBlack · Dec 15, 2010

amlevin said:
Even those in combat zones that "shoot first" are a very few considering the total number that are deployed at one time or another. Even the suggestion that it might happen among the returning "reservists" deserves some factual basis in the form of a citation.

You're missing the point. Merely being part of the largest government program in existence, and being inculcated with a military mentality (which is absolutely and by necessity different than a civilian peace officer mentality), creates an obstacle to reintegrating with society and respecting the rights of the citizens. When one is used to treating "civilians" as an occupied and potentially dangerous people, why do you assume that he will be able to make the switch after he trades his BDUs for a badge?

TO BE CLEAR: I am not saying that it is impossible for someone to be a good peace officer after being in the military and being deployed. I am simply saying that being in the modern military and being deployed in these modern, illegal, unconstitutional, and 360-degree conflicts that have no tangible relationship to American interests presents an obstacle to adjusting the mindset from one of "put 'em down, double-tap, etc." to one of "reasonable articulable suspicion, probable cause, RKBA, etc." With many law enforcement agencies actively recruiting veterans, and with those same agencies manifesting militarist tendencies in uniforms, equipment and even language, I don't think it is beyond the pale for the average citizen to be troubled.

BigDave · Dec 15, 2010

ManInBlack said:
BigDave, do you still want to carry on with the obvious lie that you weren't intending to imply that I am a member of hate groups? Your own words speak for themselves. I accept your apology for defaming me, but I'm not sure if the English language can ever forgive you for the grievous bodily injuries you've inflicted upon her with a large knife used by professionals in the meat processing industry.

I guess you going off to the extremes just comes natural to you.
There is and will not be an applogy as there is nothing to applogizes for here, it is an observation along with a simple question to find out more, you made it into more then what it is, but then that is what you do.

BigDave · Dec 15, 2010

ManInBlack said:
You're missing the point. Merely being part of the largest government program in existence, and being inculcated with a military mentality (which is absolutely and by necessity different than a civilian peace officer mentality), creates an obstacle to reintegrating with society and respecting the rights of the citizens. When one is used to treating "civilians" as an occupied and potentially dangerous people, why do you assume that he will be able to make the switch after he trades his BDUs for a badge?

TO BE CLEAR: I am not saying that it is impossible for someone to be a good peace officer after being in the military and being deployed. I am simply saying that being in the modern military and being deployed in these modern, illegal, unconstitutional, and 360-degree conflicts that have no tangible relationship to American interests presents an obstacle to adjusting the mindset from one of "put 'em down, double-tap, etc." to one of "reasonable articulable suspicion, probable cause, RKBA, etc." With many law enforcement agencies actively recruiting veterans, and with those same agencies manifesting militarist tendencies in uniforms, equipment and even language, I don't think it is beyond the pale for the average citizen to be troubled.

What a crock!

This diatribe just display the hatred you have for our government, laws and law enforcement and now to include into it returning vets!

(Your girlfriend Janet Napolitano would described them as threats returning home! and now you do as well)

ManInBlack · Dec 15, 2010

BigDave said:
This diatribe just display the hatred you have for our government, laws and law enforcement and now to include into it returning vets!

(Your girlfriend Janet Napolitano would described them as threats returning home! and now you do as well)

Ingles, por favor.

P.S.: Yes, Dave, I hate the troops so much that every day, I pray for them to be able to come home and be with their families, and not be used as coffin-stuffers in a pointless war.

BigDave · Dec 15, 2010

1245ADefender said:
Read more: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/...p-residents-raided-for-guns-by/#ixzz18CpVwcg3

Thanks for the update, still sounds like they stepped all over themselves.

amlevin · Dec 15, 2010

ManInBlack said:
You're missing the point. Merely being part of the largest government program in existence, and being inculcated with a military mentality (which is absolutely and by necessity different than a civilian peace officer mentality), creates an obstacle to reintegrating with society and respecting the rights of the citizens. When one is used to treating "civilians" as an occupied and potentially dangerous people, why do you assume that he will be able to make the switch after he trades his BDUs for a badge?

TO BE CLEAR: I am not saying that it is impossible for someone to be a good peace officer after being in the military and being deployed. I am simply saying that being in the modern military and being deployed in these modern, illegal, unconstitutional, and 360-degree conflicts that have no tangible relationship to American interests presents an obstacle to adjusting the mindset from one of "put 'em down, double-tap, etc." to one of "reasonable articulable suspicion, probable cause, RKBA, etc." With many law enforcement agencies actively recruiting veterans, and with those same agencies manifesting militarist tendencies in uniforms, equipment and even language, I don't think it is beyond the pale for the average citizen to be troubled.

And I'm merely asking you to cite where this has been a problem. Anything is possible but what is the reality?

You are making the assumption that their is a "shoot first" mentality in the military to begin with. Funny but I was there. There were things called "Rules of Engagement" which was usually the other way around.

As for being hired onto a police force if I recall correctly there are several steps at which one's predisposition to deny rights would be exposed. Having a grandson that recently started the process I believe he stated that there were not just one but several psych evals he had to go through before he even made it to the street.

For those that are reservists and actually saw combat (not just training of local force assignments) I'm sure that their mental states are evaluated both in leaving the service and re-entering the police force.

Again, some cites where this has been a problem would be warranted. Otherwise it's just conjecture without foundation.

ManInBlack · Dec 15, 2010

Amlevin, I don't think that there's anything else I can do to further explain the concept that it is the MINDSET of being part of an occupying force where one is constantly told that every civilian is a potential threat that is wholly incompatible with being a domestic peace officer. If you don't get it, I can't help you. Sorry.

BigDave · Dec 15, 2010

ManInBlack said:
Amlevin, I don't think that there's anything else I can do to further explain the concept that it is the MINDSET of being part of an occupying force where one is constantly told that every civilian is a potential threat that is wholly incompatible with being a domestic peace officer. If you don't get it, I can't help you. Sorry.

I think it is more, you do not get the point!

Bo · Dec 15, 2010

When one is used to treating "civilians" as an occupied and potentially dangerous people, why do you assume that he will be able to make the switch after he trades his BDUs for a badge?

Did we have a problem with this in our society after World War II or the Korean War?

it is the MINDSET of being part of an occupying force where one is constantly told that every civilian is a potential threat that is wholly incompatible with being a domestic peace officer.

Right; it's clear that we shouldn't even allow military veterans of our recent conflicts to reintegrate into society at all -- there's simply no way we'd ever want any of these people to return to any civilian jobs and be teachers, coaches, counselors, nurses, busdrivers or work in any occupation where one is expected to trust, nurture, care for, counsel or teach the citizens that have never experienced combat.

MIB, the term "crock" indeed comes to mind when one has to sort through the offal contained in some of your posts. So what experience do you have as a military person deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan? As a law enforcement officer?

Are you saying that since I am a former active duty member of our occupying forces (OIF, OEF) I too developed a mindset that I am incapable of changing? Perhaps I should consider a career change. I hear that Burger King has some openings in Idaho ...

What does, a dog, no knock, WAC, and ATF, have in common?

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