OCed Burlington Chocolate Fest, LEOs

paul@paul-fisher.com said:

I understand what you are meaning, however, let's just run a few scenarios. Let's say I am out shopping and plan on stopping at 5 stores in 5 LEO jurisdictions. 1st LEO stops me and it's not a big deal, just 5 minutes, he's nice enough and I'm on my way. I finish my shopping and got to the next store. Same thing, and the next, same thing.

By the end of the day I've been stopped 5 times, run my ID 5 times, wasted 25 minutes and I'm a little irritated. And, while I have no proof of this, I would bet there is some database somewhere that keeps track of who and when my ID was checked.

Let's also assume 'shall issue' passes (yuck!). I am now concealing and wear my WCI -shirt. Do you the support the LEO stopping and asking for my permit because he assumes I am carrying?

Let's get back to the present. I plan on going to Chocolate Fest today and OC. If I run into the same LEO's and ask if I am being detained, they might assume I have something to hide since the last guy they asked gave it up so easily. Still no RAS but you could make it harder on everyone else.

Please, I support your right to do as you wish but I would ask that you give it just a tiny bit more thought about the long term ramifications.

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Your hypothetical is quite a strecth of the imagination. Have your ever been asked for ID more than once a day? A week? A month? A year?

Here is the long term ramifications that I have thought quite abit about, and I have expressed them on this forum. The more common the Open Carrry becomes and we refuse ID and take it to court an win, the more LEO will back off for fear of being sued, the more confident convicted felons will be that they will not be asked for ID, the more convicted felons will Open Carry. Although thats a hypothetical, to me it's logaical.

I would love it if LEO's would ask for ID, making is clear that they have no legal rigth to demand ID, making it consensual and every lawabiding citizen would comply.

If they demand ID without RAS, we need to hold the line and send a message to LEO that they cannot demand, that they have to ask.

BROKENSPROKET said:

Your hypothetical is quite a strecth of the imagination. Have your ever been asked for ID more than once a day? A week? A month? A year?

Here is the long term ramifications that I have thought quite abit about, and I have expressed them on this forum. The more common the Open Carrry becomes and we refuse ID and take it to court an win, the more LEO will back off for fear of being sued, the more confident convicted felons will be that they will not be asked for ID, the more convicted felons will Open Carry. Although thats a hypothetical, to me it's logaical.

I would love it if LEO's would ask for ID, making is clear that they have no legal rigth to demand ID, making it consensual and every lawabiding citizen would comply.

If they demand ID without RAS, we need to hold the line and send a message to LEO that they cannot demand, that they have to ask.

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But that is the price of freedom. Who was it that said "It is better that 100 guilty men go free then 1 innocent man be jailed" or something to that effect.

As to your question, I have been asked for ID once, said no thanks, then it was demanded under threat of arrest. I complied then.

My point is that just because there are bad guys out there, I shouldn't have to suffer. I will go as far as to say that if a felon oc's, and does nothing else, the police shouldn't be able to demand ID either. Obviously, if the LEO has personal knowledge of a prohibited person and sees that person OC'ing, he then has RAS which will lead to PC which will lead to arrest and hopefully conviction.

I would love it if LEO's did to me what they did today. NOTHING! I was at the Elkhorn Memorial Day parade, standing on the street as David Graves, Sheriff of Walworth County, the Chief of Police of Elkhorn and then a few dozen veterans marched by. I then stood in the park with 3 or 4 Elkhorn LEO's milling around and other than a nod of the head by the Sheriff, nothing occurred. I would expect being confronted if I did something illegal but otherwise, leave me alone!

How about handing your ID, or just having your license plate checked while you eat in a restaurant, only to be harassed in there and then 10 hours later at your home, late at night by the local cops? Let's just say, that is a real fun experience...

NavyMike said:

Will you also voluntarily let them search your car and home, to give the LEOs peace of mind?

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Absolutely Not!

To comply with a consensual request for ID for a felon check, is not for their peace of mind, it's for mine. I want convicted felons to be afraid to Open Carry. I want it to be too risky for them.

The only time that I have ever been asked for an ID is when the LEO had to fill out and incident report about a man harrasing Open Carriers. He has quite friendly had made it clear he knew that my friend and I had done nothing wrong. Why would I reufse to ID myself when I want someone else to be charged with harrasment or disorderly conduct?

I have open carried in the presence of Capital Police, Madison Police, and many LEOs from several different agencies in west central Wisconsin and I have never been asked but that once in Buffalo County.

Brokensprocket, thanks man.

Why is it that I am being accused of capitulating? I never said to acquiesce. Some of you OCers; and you know who you are, have what if-ed everyones constitutional rights down the toilet but your own. When a person can't deny you entry to their private property without the threat of boycott, something stinks. If I choose to be vindicated when it comes to the second amendment, I will. Further, I will not trample on others rights for the sake of my own. When the hardened view of your rights intrude on mine, that's where it stops. I'm nobody's piss ant, and the blood on the Constitution was split for all people, and all the rights with in. I'll deal with the facts, and by remaining vigilant, I'll take on reality as it presents it self. WHAT IF ON. A Friend In FREEDOM, Dennis Hamm

wild boar said:

Brokensprocket, thanks man. You deal with these paranoid, tinfoil tups, I can't handle all the thought waves from outer space. :shocker:

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Wow! I'm paranoid because I don't like my rights being trampled.

BROKENSPROKET said:

To comply with a consensual request for ID for a felon check, is not for their peace of mind, it's for mine. I want convicted felons to be afraid to Open Carry. I want it to be too risky for them.

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Criminals already don't OC because they know the police will combine that with their current activities & prior knowledge of those criminals & arrest them again.

Unless I'm the complainant in a police interaction (as in your example) I'm not IDing myself. No officer can come up with any RAS that I'm committing a crime, or am a prohibited person. (At least, none that will hold up once the DA or judge gets to see it.)
And even if I were so psychopathic as to commit a heinous crime in front of dozens of witnesses, I don't have to say diddly to anyone (assuming, of course, that I survive the attack).

If I'm in a jurisdiction & situation that the law requires me to show a carry permit, I will show a carry permit.

wild boar said:

You deal with these paranoid, tinfoil tups, I can't handle all the thought waves from outer space.

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paul said:

Wow! I'm paranoid because I don't like my rights being trampled.

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Boar is very new, apparently hasn't thought through the consequences of his/her actions & statements.
I don't know how sprocket comes to hold the same ideas.

Hopefully s/he will spend some time thinking about the reasons NOT to ID onesself, including the effect it has on officers when they encounter other carriers
(encouraging the officers to expect that their demands are complied with & making the interaction more difficult for the carriers who expect the police not to infringe on their rights).
And BTW, what would those officers do with the person who doesn't carry ID?

wild boar said:

brokensproket: I choose to make these encounters as pleasant as i can. I know he had no right to see my i.d.,but, gave it to him anyway. I feel, as i stated, that it was his right to speech, and as nice as he was i wasn't going to be disrespectful to him in front of the young leo. Could be the young leo learned something. I don't want to a part of the problem; rather, a part of the cure. We received good press today, good on us.

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+1 thats awesome

I want all Mexicans asked for an i d and if they don't have one hold them till they are found to be here legally and sent back if not here legally.














How far do you think that will fly?

i still think Wild Boar has nads of steel, and he's ok in my book.

I beg to differ.

I was truthful with the guy and his reply is to be insulting.

You don't have check points or random stops as far as I know. Try it some time. I'm sure the tune around here would change post haste. Then again, maybe not...

BROKENSPROKET said:

Why would I reufse to ID myself when I want someone else to be charged with harrasment or disorderly conduct?

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This is disingenuous at best. You know thats not what is being discussed. I for one am not trying to gang up on your buddy. Just pointing out his original statement is not so cut and dry.

That's cool though. Guess I'll head back to space. Outer space, B*TCHES!

Sounds like the older cop was a pretty good guy.
I cant figure out why the other one would ask you to put the gun in your vehicle. "That's just rude"!
I like the I served my country for all our rights part the best. HeHe

HandyHamlet said:

This is disingenuous at best. You know thats not what is being discussed. I for one am not trying to gang up on your buddy. Just pointing out his original statement is not so cut and dry.

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Would you please explain to me just I am being disingenous at best?

BROKENSPROKET said:

Why would I reufse to ID myself when I want someone else to be charged with harrasment or disorderly conduct?

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Because THIS isn't the topic of discussion.

wild boar said:

If we would all voluntarily be checked it would not become an issue.

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THIS is. Two completely different things.

You want to voluntarily ID yourself by all means go ahead. I already said why I won't. I'm still smarting from an ugly verbal disbute with a cop over my 1st amendment rights from a few months back. So despite what you both wish me to do voluntarily I respectfully decline.

If that makes me paranoid then tough sh*t. Guess you both will have to live with that.

HandyHamlet said:

Because THIS isn't the topic of discussion.

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We are talking about being ID'd, right. I am just wondering why you began to insult me.

BROKENSPROKET said:

If they demand ID without RAS, we need to hold the line and send a message to LEO that they cannot demand, that they have to ask.

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Either way, we do live in a free country and should not be harassed for partaking in a legal, and constitutionally protected right! I don't give a ratzass what their excuse or reasons are for wanting see my ID, If I am not breaking any current laws, they can go pound sand up their bungholes!

"Being Cooperative"? or gladly waiving your rights to a tyrannical arm of government? We do not have a pre-Crime division. So you can pretty much guess how I feel about someone submitting to unwarranted seizures and checks of papers to walk about in public.

"his right to speech"? WTF are you talking about??

wild boar said:

Brokensproket: I feel, as I stated, that it was his right to speech, and as nice as he was I wasn't going to be disrespectful to him in front of the young LEO. Could be the young LEO learned something. I don't want to a part of the problem; rather, a part of the cure. We received good press today, good on us.

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Alright, first off the police do not have "Rights" they are instead granted powers. We are the ones that have rights, and our rights are in place to limit powers of government. So Not for nothing, but it looks like you have things a little backwards.

Part of the problem, or part of the cure??
Now you're just trying to piss me off, right??

What liberal indoctrination center took for gonads for safe keeping? Wild Boar, please do me a favor, read the declaration of independence, the US constitution including the first 14 amendments, and the WI state constitution. Hopefully it will help deprogram you a little bit and help you learn what this country was based on and how we can get closer to our founding fathers intentions instead of doing things to appease government entities.

I am not trying to be a dick here, but you have done no favors for freedom-loving individuals such as myself by gladly waiving your rights.

BROKENSPROKET said:

We are talking about being ID'd, right. I am just wondering why you began to insult me.

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Excuse me? Calling you out on your BS is not insulting you.
It's calling out your BS. Big boy rules, get it? :lol:

Happy Tuesday.

{adjusts tinfoil hat, gazes longingly at the stars, wonders what the family is doing back on Jupiter}

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7a66m_astronaut-jones_fun

Beam me up Scottie

Illegals

springfield 1911 said:

I want all Mexicans asked for an i d and if they don't have one hold them till they are found to be here legally and sent back if not here legally.













How far do you think that will fly?

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Illegals kill 25 Americans every day,this does not include the consequences of drug use