Question about a LEO stop while OC'ing.

NavyLCDR said:

You mean just follow any order given by a person wearing a uniform and a badge regardless of whether or not they have legal authority to give that order?...

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No.

And you know that I hate having words put in my mouth. I prefer to talk with folks who don't use that disingenuous tactic.

I meant what I said, and it was fairly simple. In the video, Protias demonstrated a civil and effective way to deal with an officer who was in error. That's it. Moving on.

NavyLCDR said:

I don't know. Ask a Japanese-American who was here in 1942, see what they say. I know, I know, this isn't the 1940's. Well.. guess what.. the Gun Control Act wasn't enacted until 1968. We aren't getting any better.

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OMG come on now.LOL

Gunslinger said:

That's what the Jews thought in the '30s. How'd that work out for them?

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you guys a killing me.LOL

NavyLCDR said:

Which was to do what the officer said and leave the premises. Doesn't seem very effective to me. No offense to Protias. Everybody has to make their own decisions in their own situations.

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I was done eating anyway. I filed my complaint against all three officers the following day. Over a year later, I still have not received an apology from them, or the county deputies who showed up at my house to harass me some more.

NavyLCDR said:

Glad that you followed up.... too bad you don't have St. John's attorney from New Mexico

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I asked Wisconsin Carry if there was a possible case. Nik talked with John Monroe and he said no.

NavyLCDR said:

Which is probably true... they asked you to voluntarily leave and you complied. Again, I don't mean to criticize, you made the choice which was best for you at the moment, but blind compliance usually means you waive your rights.

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It was actually because I was not detained, handcuffed, or arrested.

NavyLCDR said:

So you can speak for 100% of police officers in 100% of locations in 100% of encounters?

Sorry. Your "theory" has been proven incorrect to me, in person, in a live encounter when a cop tossed me out of a restaurant against the owner's wishes for possessing a firearm. The owner of the restaurant the next day apologized profusely and asked me, my friends, my family AND our firearms to please come back, the that cop was acting on his own without their request. And he did EXACTLY what the cop in the video did - he went and got a waitress who wasn't even old enough to server beer and strong-armed her to follow him while he tossed me out, did I say already against the owner's wishes... from private property.

It doesn't matter how many badges you polish or boots you kiss - a small minority of cops are still going to be a$$hats when you are doing something that they personally don't like.

The very next weekend we had an open carry luncheon at the restaurant and gave the restaurant about 20 members' business that day - with our firearms. We warned the Chief of Police ahead of time that we would be there, with guns, and that we were invited guests on private property and any attempt by the police department to interfere would be dealt with via a lawsuit. Funny how they didn't show up...

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My 'theory' has been proven a 100% in 'my' interactions. I state my interactions, not anyone elses.

Why warn the chief if you were not doing anything illegal?

protias said:

I asked Wisconsin Carry if there was a possible case. Nik talked with John Monroe and he said no.

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Probably not when they are so abso*freakin*lutely convinced that you deserved everything you were complaining about because of ... wait for it ... public safety.

Yeah, the only way to implement a change is to hit the political buttons. Or, what worked for me, a campaign of "Shame on you for overreacting."

About half of the cops/deputies took a look at who was saying what, and what my ACTUAL actions were and are willing to change their attitude. The other half are hopeless *followers* and will never change. My FBI buddy laughed at me when I complained that "even the cops were going around town trying to convince people that I was [in the wrong]" and said that I wasn't doing my job well if I *didn't* get those complaints.

Of course, there were other respected business owners in town who knew the situation and would help out ... go into one of the busiest restaurants on a friday night with most of the off duty LEO out with the wife and kids, and one of them sees me come in and shouts over the full crowd, 'Hey JailBait, how's it going!" Har, har, har, I was getting comments about that for weeks from folks who were not even in the restaurant!

NavyLCDR said:

When the cop said they don't allow guns and you have to leave, the question should have been asked, when are you leaving? They don't allow guns in here and you have one. My personal feeling is that if guns are not allowed in a place of business, police officers should not be allowed to carry guns there either, except under official business of investigating a crime - and then only with the express permission of the business owner or a court order.

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I may be off base her but I believe I believe the question that should have been asked is do you work here, and if so can I get an order of sesame chicken to go? If asked by a representative of the business or owner to leave I will comply, but I don't believe that the state police fishing for a charge fall into that category.

tcmech said:

I may be off base her but I believe I believe the question that should have been asked is do you work here, and if so can I get an order of sesame chicken to go? If asked by a representative of the business or owner to leave I will comply, but I don't believe that the state police fishing for a charge fall into that category.

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You can hear that the second time the officer asks, she doesn't even answer if firearms are allowed. I could tell she was very uncomfortable as she didn't want to disagree with police (again, show me where the Chinese trust police). The following week, when we had done our protest, we went to the same restaurant and had no issues with the staff. Obviously firearms are not banned there.

MilProGuy said:

Personally, I appreciate the fine law enforcement officers who lay their lives on the line every day to protect and serve the rest of us.

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Appreciating in itself is one thing, and I agree. "Licking Boots" is another. There's a difference.


Giving up your rights to somehow show your appreciation is a fool's game.

NavyLCDR said:

Yes, exactly. My post was 1/2 in jest. We all know it is more accepted for a person to open carry when they wear a badge and a uniform, even though they are responsible for a much greater number of innocent people being shot than non-police officers cause.

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I love how he asks the worker if they allow openly carried guns by "private citizens". He automatically assumes that they would allow open carry by LEO's. One can clearly see that the two LEOs in the background are customers, as they are getting plates at the buffet. They are not there in an official manner, yet they are the only customers who should have firearms visible.

Mo said:

Appreciating in itself is one thing, and I agree. "Licking Boots" is another. There's a difference.


Giving up your rights to somehow show your appreciation is a fool's game.

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Spot on.

Mo said:

Appreciating in itself is one thing, and I agree. "Licking Boots" is another. There's a difference.


Giving up your rights to somehow show your appreciation is a fool's game.

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Cop: "Well, if you're doing nothing wrong, why don't you want to cooperate?"

Me: "No offense, officer. Something over a million Americans have literally died defending these rights. I'm not going to spit on their graves by waiving them."

NavyLCDR said:

So the police would have absolutely no reason - or more accurately, excuse - to harass us if they received a 911 call that there were 15 people with guns taking over a local restaurant.

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If a 911 call comes in that "15 people with guns [are] taking over a local restaurant," I would not just expect, but demand, a strong police reaction. I would also expect and demand consequences for anyone who made such a report falsely.

Depending on that circumstances, the police would most likely have quickly evaporating RAS to detain and question one or more carriers whom they find on the scene of a reported "armed takeover."

tcmech said:

I may be off base her but I believe I believe the question that should have been asked is do you work here, and if so can I get an order of sesame chicken to go? If asked by a representative of the business or owner to leave I will comply, but I don't believe that the state police fishing for a charge fall into that category.

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While funny (thanks for the chuckle), such action would qualify as "acting like an ass" that was bemoaned earlier in this thread. I advocate for the carrier being the rational adult in the situation, pressing for his rights calmly and matter-of-factly.

Citizen said:

Cop: "Well, if you're doing nothing wrong, why don't you want to cooperate?"

Me: "No offense, officer. Something over a million Americans have literally died defending these rights. I'm not going to spit on their graves by waiving them."

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Excellent!

You know, so many times I have been told or it has been "suggested" to me what your first sentence says; "Well, if you're doing nothing wrong, why don't you want to cooperate?" Talk about the camel's nose under the tent syndrome, when anyone suggests this to me, my first thought is they must have been asleep during their world history classes in high school. I can't tell you how many people have echoed these words, or ones to this effect, to me over the years. And they frequently follow them up with or include something like, "You people [or your kind] are so wrapped up in worrying about your rights."

The road to hell has always been paved with good intentions. We might also add to this, the will to cooperate in your context. I was told recently by some poster on another site that if their local police saw me OC'ing in his town, I could expect to be thrown to the ground or even shot (some place in New Jersey). And he was somewhat supporting that mindset and behavior it seemed. What a difference a few borders South makes, eh?

NavyLCDR said:

Hopefully, prior notification to the local LEO of an event where there is going to be an above average number of armed citizens congregating would help determine the level of a response to a 911 call.

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Do you call the cops to tell them your church is going to hold services on Sunday where the preacher will deliver a sermon saying living beyond one's means is just as bad for the government as it is for a family?

Do you call the cops to tell them that next Thursday Mrs. McGillicuddy is going to teach third-graders about how a law comes into being?

Even worse, do you call the cops to tell them that you and your friends are going to meet at the gun club/indoor range/ your abandoned quarry range (the one on your own property where your family have been shooting since at least grand-dad's time) to do some target shooting and maybe some practical shooting?

Why are you suggesting that anybody needs to notify the cops that they are planning to do something perfectly legal and non-confrontational?

Had you suggested that someone discreeetly check with the restaurant management to ensure that they 1) can accommodate the expected number of diners and 2) that they are not opposed to lawful open carry, then I would say those are good suggestions.

But to suggest that one ought to/needs to notify the cops ahead of time that they are going to do something legal because it might scare the horses? Never!

Since nobody bothered to mention a "Gun Ownership Is Not A Crime" parade, or a neighborhood litter pick-up, we are not going to discuss those things. Parades usually require permits, and litter pick-ups usually are coordinated between 2 or 3 municipal/state agencies to ensure proper resource management, traffic and participant safety, and even that PR opportunities are not missed.

stay safe.

As a matter of practicality, not as a requirement, and in consideration of the current atmosphere (especially in Alabama), notifying the cops of a massive gathering of openly armed individuals can be a good idea.

When we had our last state-wide meeting in Alabama, we notified the local PD. We already knew that that particular PD was not anti-OC. However, if they suddenly got a rash of phone calls from citizens about a bunch of gun-toters at the local Jim and Nick's, their response would be considerably muted, and attendant inconvenience to the carriers would be minimized (or completely avoided)--if the calls did not completely blind-side them!

Woody1960 said:

you guys a killing me.LOL

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"Killing you" is easy when your rights have been taken away. Can't happen here? Only if we don't "let it."