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Thread: Wis. DOJ warns consumers about gun training

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    Wis. DOJ warns consumers about gun training

    "Instructors" won't know until September or October if they will be recognized as "qualified" by the DOJ. And I hate the picture used in the story...

    "The department is working on the rules that will govern whether training offered meets requirements under the law. DOJ official Brian O’Keefe said today that those won’t be done until September or October, and until then anyone advertising that they meet DOJ requirements under the law are mistaken."

    http://www.marshfieldnewsherald.com/...sectionstories
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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I agree the picture is a little strange. I have been reading on here about people putting up signs offering training in WI. Perhaps the state should decide a little sooner than Sep. or Oct. what qualifies. Until then, I hope people don't waste money on a class that won't meet the requirements.
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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I agree the picture is a little strange. I have been reading on here about people putting up signs offering training in WI. Perhaps the state should decide a little sooner than Sep. or Oct. what qualifies. Until then, I hope people don't waste money on a class that won't meet the requirements.
    Specially from some out of state ( FLORIDA) training company...
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  4. #4
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    gun training?...........interesting concept, i've got my trained to sit, stay, and speak. for some odd reason though they refuse to roll over and play dead.

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    The following is from the published version of ACT 35.
    The DoJ has very limited authority to dictate the kind of acceptable training. Doesn't mean it may try but I expect the gun rights groups will be all over it. Read (7)(b) and then read it again.


    (2) ISSUANCE AND SCOPE OF LICENSE. (a) The department
    shall issue a license to carry a concealed weapon to
    any individual who is not disqualified under sub. (3) and
    who completes the application process specified in sub.
    (7). A license to carry a concealed weapon issued under
    this section shall meet the requirements specified in sub.
    (2m).
    (b) The department may not impose conditions, limitations,
    or requirements that are not expressly provided
    for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content
    of a license.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Thank you, DOJ.

    This has been picked up by the Associated Press, so let's hope that it gets wide exposure in every AP-associated publication. There are too many fly-by-nights preying on the uninformed.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I agree people should be aware of what the law says in re acceptable training...
    including the DOJ & media which report on the issue.
    The law sets out pretty clearly what training is acceptable.
    (Starts on pg 8 of the PDF of the law.)
    DOJ has no say in what they WILL accept.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    BS!!! "....are mistaken". ?????? "May be mistaken" would be more accurate. I am sure that many instructors that claim the will meet DOJ requirements will far exceed them. Maybe this where only NRA instructors get certified.

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    Wakey wakey peeples

    For WI residents, DOJ has COMPLETE control over WHOSE training qualifies. It gets to certify qualifying instructors, including deciding who is "able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing firearms safety and training" for training courses available to the general public (Section 38 of 2011 Act 35).

    That means DOJ could specify a training standard for trainers, minimum live-fire experience, training experience, a written ertification test, physical requirements such as eyesight, experience with all of the weapons covered, etc.

    And DOJ DOES NOT have to promulgate a rule specifying who will be certified. It will do it by internal guidance, which means no public hearing, no legislative oversight, no input from anybody outside of the Agency except at DOJ's invitation and pleasure.

    To be certified, an instructor must also be eligible for a WI license....which means non-residents cannot qualify to provide training available to the general public (v. training for law enforcement).

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Its about time someone put an end to the carpet-baggers running amok.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    To be certified, an instructor must also be eligible for a WI license....which means non-residents cannot qualify to provide training available to the general public (v. training for law enforcement).
    Does it really say that? I think it only says that an instructor has to be qualified to carry a concealed weapon. Out of state people are qualified by virtue of their own state's license or permit.

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    DOJ "can" certify instructors...but an instructor does not "have" to be certified by the DOJ to qualify.

    (4) Training requirements. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:
    1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that conducted the course or program, that indicates the individual completed any of the following:
    a. The hunter education program established under s. 29.591 or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that is recognized by the department of natural resources.
    b. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.
    c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
    d. A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security agencies.
    e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.
    2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program under subd. 1.
    3. A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license, that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked for cause.
    4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.
    (b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:
    a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed weapon.
    b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing firearms safety and training.
    2. The department may not require firing live ammunition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).

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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerousman View Post
    Does it really say that? I think it only says that an instructor has to be qualified to carry a concealed weapon. Out of state people are qualified by virtue of their own state's license or permit.
    Dangerousman, I was surprised too. Here's why I think it does say exactly that. First, s. 175.60(4)(b)1 reads in part:

    "To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the
    following criteria:
    a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed
    weapon. "


    Okay, so what's sub. (3)? It's the language spelling out who is eligible for a WI license... and only WI residents qualify:

    "(3) RESTRICTIONS ON ISSUING A LICENSE. The depart-
    ment shall issue a license under this section to an individ-
    ual who submits an application under sub. (7) unless any
    of the following applies:
    (a) The individual is less than 21 years of age.
    (b) The individual is prohibited under federal law
    from possessing a firearm that has been transported in
    interstate or foreign commerce.
    (c) The individual is prohibited from possessing a
    firearm under s. 941.29.
    (d) The court has prohibited the individual from pos-
    sessing a dangerous weapon under s. 969.02 (3) (c) or
    969.03 (1) (c).
    (e) The individual is on release under s. 969.01 and
    the individual may not possess a dangerous weapon as a
    condition of the release.
    f) The individual is not a Wisconsin resident.
    (g) The individual has not provided proof of training
    as described under sub. (4) (a).
    --------------------------------------
    That's separate from the portion of the law that spells out how WI will recognize other state permits, for the purpose of allowing individuals to carry concealed. If out-of-state license holders were eligible, the certification section would have had to explicitly include people who hold licenses issued by states recognized by DOJ.

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    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Post Unpack those statutes....

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerousman View Post
    Does it really say that? I think it only says that an instructor has to be qualified to carry a concealed weapon. Out of state people are qualified by virtue of their own state's license or permit.
    Here are the requirements to be an instructor:
    (b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the
    purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list
    of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the
    department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the
    following criteria:
    a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed
    weapon.

    b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge
    required for providing firearms safety and training.
    2. The department may not require firing live ammu-
    nition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).
    And sub. (3) says this:
    (3) RESTRICTIONS ON ISSUING A LICENSE. The depart-
    ment shall issue a license under this section to an individ-
    ual who submits an application under sub. (7) unless any
    of the following applies:

    (a) The individual is less than 21 years of age.
    (b) The individual is prohibited under federal law
    from possessing a firearm that has been transported in
    interstate or foreign commerce.
    (c) The individual is prohibited from possessing a
    firearm under s. 941.29.
    (d) The court has prohibited the individual from pos-
    sessing a dangerous weapon under s. 969.02 (3) (c) or
    969.03 (1) (c).
    (e) The individual is on release under s. 969.01 and
    the individual may not possess a dangerous weapon as a
    condition of the release.
    (f) The individual is not a Wisconsin resident.
    (g) The individual has not provided proof of training
    as described under sub. (4) (a).
    What do you think? Looks like non-residents don't qualify to be a instructor....

    ETA: Looks like LaBamba and I agree!
    Last edited by davegran; 07-23-2011 at 12:36 PM.
    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  15. #15
    McX
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    the ads are in the paper still every day here, see them at gas stations too. on a recent visit to a business client, his secretary staff all surrounded me, asking about the permit, as they and their husbands wanted to get it. i told them to hold out for the WisCarry class to hit this area, and i would let them know. they said they called on all the other classes, and they were full up. looks like some are making alot of money off of something that may prove worthless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjam2jab View Post
    DOJ "can" certify instructors...but an instructor does not "have" to be certified by the DOJ to qualify.
    I agree that there are several types of training that do not entail DOJ-certified instructors. Of those, the type of greatest interest to people who aren't LEOs or service may be training conducted by a natl. or state group that certifies instructors. And even then, DOJ gets to decide what is a "national" or "state" organization, and what qualifies as "certification" by a group. It's going to involve more than 3 guys raising a toast at a fish fry near a state line, I promise you. Plus, DOJ certification is directly required for:

    "c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
    ...and
    e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department."

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    What the heck does DoJ know anyway?

    Why worry? It hath been posted that DoJ has no rule making authority. The law is crystal clear. We have experts here at OCDO that have explained that "carpetbagger" courses won't count but the MD online course will. Case closed. Oh, and signs have no legal weight.
    Last edited by apjonas; 07-23-2011 at 01:42 PM.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Here are the requirements to be an instructor:And sub. (3) says this:What do you think? Looks like non-residents don't qualify to be a instructor....

    ETA: Looks like LaBamba and I agree!
    I would have to also agree.
    I don't understand it, my Utah permit will get me my Wisconsin, but the man that gave me the class for the Utah is not qualified to give a class in Wisconsin (for the Wis)? And he can never become qualified unless he moves to this State...?

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    The Obvious Conclusion

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    I would have to also agree.
    I don't understand it, my Utah permit will get me my Wisconsin, but the man that gave me the class for the Utah is not qualified to give a class in Wisconsin (for the Wis)? And he can never become qualified unless he moves to this State...?
    is that the legislature determined that experience with concealed carry that did not end up with the applicant in jail is sufficient training. The license or permit is simply a proxy for such experience. As mentioned before, an OOSL that itself required no training for issuance is accceptable as a substitute for training for a WiCWL. So it doesn't matter if the instructor does or does not qualify to teach a WI course. He is two steps removed from the activity that the legislature deemed important.

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    Before Nov.1st?

    From the Wausau Daily Herald:
    http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/art...class-Saturday

    After completion of the $99 class, gun owners can mail a certificate and $50 to the state Department of Justice, which will conduct a background check and send back a concealed weapons permit before Nov. 1, when Wisconsin's concealed carry law takes effect, according to Chandler Myler, an Equip 2 Conceal instructor.
    Do they know something we don't know?

  21. #21
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    From the Wausau Daily Herald:
    http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/art...class-Saturday



    Do they know something we don't know?
    Yep. There's a sucker born every minute....
    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    IF they get too nasty very body well just take a hunters safety course. Simple cheap and written into the law.

    Personily I am waiting to see what DOJ does before offering a course.

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    All this is a moot point. DOJ can say an instructor must walk on water blindfolded and have a DOB of Feb. 29th, to be certified and it won't matter. If the class will qualify you for a UT, MN, FL permit, you can sidestep DOJ's "instructor certification requirements" entirely by getting a permit in another State and using that permit to get a WI permit. The law CLEARLY STATES that ANY out-of-state permit, past or present, is an automatic qualifier in WI. OK... let's see what the doom-sayers can do with this one. Sheesh. I thought the anti-gunners were the ones who were paranoid, and dabbled in the outlandish "what-ifs". Since when did DOJ = anti-gun Gestapo?

    Any firearm safety class taught by a NRA certified instructor, or an AACFI certified instructor, WILL be accepted by DOJ... no ifs, ands, or buts. WTF do you think the law referred to when it said "certified by a national organization" if it did not mean AACFI (American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors) or NRA? What other "national organizations" are there?

    Anyone with a WI hunter safety class certificate, taught by the WI DNR, WILL be accepted by DOJ. Anyone with an out-of-state permit WILL be accepted by DOJ. Get over it, already.

    All this paranoia over an A.P. story? The same A.P. that says a licensee can't carry within 1,000' of a school? The same A.P. who says in this very article that "participates in shooting competition" is still a qualifier in WI? The ONLY amendment to SB93 in either the Senate or Assembly floor debates that passed, eliminated this. A.P. doesn't know it's arse from a hole in the ground.
    Last edited by safcrkr; 07-23-2011 at 10:06 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safcrkr View Post
    All this is a moot point. DOJ can say an instructor must walk on water blindfolded and have a DOB of Feb. 29th, to be certified and it won't matter. If the class will qualify you for a UT, MN, FL permit, you can sidestep DOJ's "instructor certification requirements" entirely by getting a permit in another State and using that permit to get a WI permit. The law CLEARLY STATES that ANY out-of-state permit, past or present, is an automatic qualifier in WI. OK... let's see what the doom-sayers can do with this one. Sheesh. I thought the anti-gunners were the ones who were paranoid, and dabbled in the outlandish "what-ifs". Since when did DOJ = anti-gun Gestapo?

    Any firearm safety class taught by a NRA certified instructor, or an AACFI certified instructor, WILL be accepted by DOJ... no ifs, ands, or buts. WTF do you think the law referred to when it said "certified by a national organization" if it did not mean AACFI (American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors) or NRA? What other "national organizations" are there?

    Anyone with a WI hunter safety class certificate, taught by the WI DNR, WILL be accepted by DOJ. Anyone with an out-of-state permit WILL be accepted by DOJ. Get over it, already.

    All this paranoia over an A.P. story? The same A.P. that says a licensee can't carry within 1,000' of a school? The same A.P. who says in this very article that "participates in shooting competition" is still a qualifier in WI? The ONLY amendment to SB93 in either the Senate or Assembly floor debates that passed, eliminated this. A.P. doesn't know it's arse from a hole in the ground.
    Thank you for your clarity and for putting this issue back in perspective....
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by safcrkr View Post
    Anyone with a WI hunter safety class certificate, taught by the WI DNR, WILL be accepted by DOJ. Anyone with an out-of-state permit WILL be accepted by DOJ. Get over it, already.
    Yup, in fact if you take an OOS class like Utah, you WILL get the UT permit as a bonus. A little more money and a little more flexibility. More people than not, especially here, are already "qualified". Come Nov. 1st, just fill out the paperwork, write a check and send it in.

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