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Another deadly taser incident
- Thread starter Verd
- Start date
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
Kivuli
Regular Member
You really shouldn't believe what you see on COPS. That show makes me cringe.
Also, the TASER voltage is high (50,000 volts initial then 1200 volts continuous), but the amperage is almost non-existant (.00053 amps if I recall the instructor correctly). Coupled with that, the charge doesn't actually reach your heart; it's too deep for that. The path of least resistance takes it across your skin and through the top layer of muscle (hence the incapacitating effects). Ventricular fibrillation directly caused by the TASER's discharge has no recorded incidents to my knowledge. Secondary injuries, adrenaline spikes, and the like have been reported but you can't account for what any given person's body chemistry will do since there are no outward signs, and the incident rate is less than 0.5%.
The parallel between demanding to ban tasers and demanding to ban firearms is disturbing. Punish the misusers of a tool. Do not take a life-saving tool away from those who do not misuse it.
Also, the TASER voltage is high (50,000 volts initial then 1200 volts continuous), but the amperage is almost non-existant (.00053 amps if I recall the instructor correctly). Coupled with that, the charge doesn't actually reach your heart; it's too deep for that. The path of least resistance takes it across your skin and through the top layer of muscle (hence the incapacitating effects). Ventricular fibrillation directly caused by the TASER's discharge has no recorded incidents to my knowledge. Secondary injuries, adrenaline spikes, and the like have been reported but you can't account for what any given person's body chemistry will do since there are no outward signs, and the incident rate is less than 0.5%.
The parallel between demanding to ban tasers and demanding to ban firearms is disturbing. Punish the misusers of a tool. Do not take a life-saving tool away from those who do not misuse it.
GLOCK21GB
Campaign Veteran
this. +1000
Verd
Campaign Veteran
Exactly. We are here in regards to openly carrying firearms and to make firearms more prominent in the public consciousness as something that responsible legal citizens do. Why in the world would we be calling out for the banning of tasers? The problem is that since they are designated as Less Lethal to Non-Lethal, cops are resorting to using them at the drop of the hat, like when someone refuses to do what they say the first time they ask. Similar stories can be seen when the cops carry pepper spray and not tasers. Pepper spray can be deadly to someone who has an allergy to peppers, but some cops use pepper spray (as well as tasers when they are issued them) the moment their authority is questioned or challenged. Luckily for myself (who happens to have a number of allergies), I have not yet seen a video or read a report of someone getting pepper sprayed or tasered due to OC. Seems that since we are armed, it makes those cops who are unhappy with our usage of the 2A less hasty to escalate confrontations.
Bluemax
Regular Member
since9,
I agree that if an aircraft flies into the dirt someone will be killed unless they are fortunate enough to bail out. Even then they will likely suffer injuries. I was trying to say that bullets fired from a gun are not lethal if the person doesn't die. I agree that if the situation warrants, fire until the threat is eliminated. If it causes someone to die that is the way it goes. hopefully it would only be the bad guy that dies.
I suppose there is a disconnect between what I was thinking and what went on the keyboard. So let me try to state it better. A taser is just one of the available tools for the officers to use. They probably should not be totally banned but there should be more training and guidelines on when the are to be used. It seems that in many cases the officers are too quick to use the taser. Sometimes if someone doesn't comply quickly enough to the officers commands they get tased. There have been cases of children and elderly people being tased. In those cases the officers that deployed the taser should have been punished. These could have been easily overcome without being tased. In the latest case here, three officers surounded an average size unarmed man. Someone dicided to use tha taser instead of the three of them taking him down. Those type of cases are the ones that get me stirred up.
Of course the officer can never know the condition of the people they encounter. They could have some physical problems or be on some type of drugs, either legal or illegal. No one can predict what the reaction to a taser will be. If a single officer is facing someone with something other than a gun or knife, other means should be used before a taser is employed. If facing a gun or knife then, by all means, draw and start firing to end the threat.
I don't want to hamper law enforcement from doing their jobs. I always wanted to be one. But I do think they need more training and guidelines in using non-lethal force. I am not out on the streets facing the bad guys every day. If I were out there I very likely would have a different outlook on this subject.
I agree that if an aircraft flies into the dirt someone will be killed unless they are fortunate enough to bail out. Even then they will likely suffer injuries. I was trying to say that bullets fired from a gun are not lethal if the person doesn't die. I agree that if the situation warrants, fire until the threat is eliminated. If it causes someone to die that is the way it goes. hopefully it would only be the bad guy that dies.
I suppose there is a disconnect between what I was thinking and what went on the keyboard. So let me try to state it better. A taser is just one of the available tools for the officers to use. They probably should not be totally banned but there should be more training and guidelines on when the are to be used. It seems that in many cases the officers are too quick to use the taser. Sometimes if someone doesn't comply quickly enough to the officers commands they get tased. There have been cases of children and elderly people being tased. In those cases the officers that deployed the taser should have been punished. These could have been easily overcome without being tased. In the latest case here, three officers surounded an average size unarmed man. Someone dicided to use tha taser instead of the three of them taking him down. Those type of cases are the ones that get me stirred up.
Of course the officer can never know the condition of the people they encounter. They could have some physical problems or be on some type of drugs, either legal or illegal. No one can predict what the reaction to a taser will be. If a single officer is facing someone with something other than a gun or knife, other means should be used before a taser is employed. If facing a gun or knife then, by all means, draw and start firing to end the threat.
I don't want to hamper law enforcement from doing their jobs. I always wanted to be one. But I do think they need more training and guidelines in using non-lethal force. I am not out on the streets facing the bad guys every day. If I were out there I very likely would have a different outlook on this subject.
MilProGuy
Regular Member
1. High on drugs...
2. Forcibly entered his neighbor's house...
3. Resisted arrest...
4. Was tazed.
Seems like a logical sequence of events to me.
The man made a choice. Every choice we make in life has consequences.
This man died as a result of the consequences of several bad choices.
2. Forcibly entered his neighbor's house...
3. Resisted arrest...
4. Was tazed.
Seems like a logical sequence of events to me.
The man made a choice. Every choice we make in life has consequences.
This man died as a result of the consequences of several bad choices.
georg jetson
Regular Member
Speaking to the safety level of Tasers, it can't be guaranteed. The issue, as someone stated in an earlier post, is the amount of current that can travel through the human heart before the heart malfunctions. As that amount of current is directly related to the voltage applied and the impedance of the human body, and that the impedance of the human body is not homogeneous nor is it constant over time, predicting a safe outcome is impossible.
However, as others have pointed out, if death does not occur, then recovery is almost immediate. If death occurs, the right of the decedent's survivors to file suit should be preserved.
However, as others have pointed out, if death does not occur, then recovery is almost immediate. If death occurs, the right of the decedent's survivors to file suit should be preserved.
Verd
Campaign Veteran
ANother HUGE problem I have with tasers is the falling effect. I am over 6ft tall.. and I know that my head, when falling froma 6ft height without any efforst to slow down it's rate of speed, will impact the ground rather hard. When you are taser'd, you lose control of your muscles, making injury that much more likely. I really don't want to have my head cracked open, or worse, because some cop taser'd me while I was a hard surface.
Just like guns, cops need to think about the consequences of using any of their weapons before they use them. Like not using pepper spray in a closed and confined place where there are 2 or more police officers that could easily get hit by the spray.
Just like guns, cops need to think about the consequences of using any of their weapons before they use them. Like not using pepper spray in a closed and confined place where there are 2 or more police officers that could easily get hit by the spray.
sraacke
Regular Member
Keep in mind that Police aren't the only ones you carry or use Tasers. Many of us carry Tasers as backup to our Open Carry pistol either in place of or in addition to pepper spray. My Taser C2 goes almost everywhere my pistol does. In fact, I'd say, my C2 gets carried in more places than my handgun due to carry restrictions. I feel comfortable having the less than lethal option should I decide that a situation calls for it.
SFCRetired
Regular Member
[snip=Kivuli;1631285]
Also, the TASER voltage is high (50,000 volts initial then 1200 volts continuous), but the amperage is almost non-existant (.00053 amps if I recall the instructor correctly). Coupled with that, the charge doesn't actually reach your heart; it's too deep for that. .[/snip]
Not aimed at you, Kivuli, but has anyone ever been tased while hooked to an electrocardiogram machine? I am not convinced that a current sufficient to "lock the muscles" is not sufficient to reach the heart. Not to mention that the contracting of the skeletal muscles is bound to have an effect on the circulatory system. I also understand that current is going to follow the path of least resistance.
As I stated before, I am not a doctor and I do not want to get hit with a taser under any circumstances. My training as an electronics tech and my experiences when I inadvertently touched a live circuit tells me that even an "insignificant" amount of current could be dangerous under the right conditions.
Personal opinion: It's like shot placement. Where the barbs of the taser hit, the physical condition of the person being tased, and hidden heart defects may all play a part in causing death by taser. I still argue that tasers should be banned totally and other, non-lethal, means employed.
Everyone here has made good arguments for and against.
BTW, Since9, this old soldier is not a "stand-by-and-do-nothing" sort of man, either. Perhaps I misread your post, but the implication is that I would do nothing to help someone injured or ill. You, sir, are quite wrong and nothing I posted should have given you that idea.
Also, the TASER voltage is high (50,000 volts initial then 1200 volts continuous), but the amperage is almost non-existant (.00053 amps if I recall the instructor correctly). Coupled with that, the charge doesn't actually reach your heart; it's too deep for that. .[/snip]
Not aimed at you, Kivuli, but has anyone ever been tased while hooked to an electrocardiogram machine? I am not convinced that a current sufficient to "lock the muscles" is not sufficient to reach the heart. Not to mention that the contracting of the skeletal muscles is bound to have an effect on the circulatory system. I also understand that current is going to follow the path of least resistance.
As I stated before, I am not a doctor and I do not want to get hit with a taser under any circumstances. My training as an electronics tech and my experiences when I inadvertently touched a live circuit tells me that even an "insignificant" amount of current could be dangerous under the right conditions.
Personal opinion: It's like shot placement. Where the barbs of the taser hit, the physical condition of the person being tased, and hidden heart defects may all play a part in causing death by taser. I still argue that tasers should be banned totally and other, non-lethal, means employed.
Everyone here has made good arguments for and against.
BTW, Since9, this old soldier is not a "stand-by-and-do-nothing" sort of man, either. Perhaps I misread your post, but the implication is that I would do nothing to help someone injured or ill. You, sir, are quite wrong and nothing I posted should have given you that idea.
georg jetson
Regular Member
As I stated in an earlier post, the path and magnitude of the current cannot be sufficiently predicted to guarantee safety. MOST of the current WILL follow the path of least IMPEDANCE, BUT some of the current will still travel in what may be considered HIGHER impedance paths because of current division. If you place a 10ohm resistor in parallel with a 20ohm resistor and apply a voltage, some current WILL flow through the 20ohm resistor given by the current division equation. There is a high probability that SOME current is flowing EVERYWHERE through the body.
The term "impedance" is used because Tasers apply voltage in pulses(http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=129937&p=irol-newsArticle_pf&ID=679184&highlight=). Impedance is the totality of the resistive component and the reactive component caused form inductance and capacitance.
Most certainly...
It does indeed depend on where the barbs are applied. The voltage across the barbs will have a significant affect on the path of the current.
By "banned totally" do you mean banned from police use? I'm sure you're not advocating more restrictive and unconstitutional law.
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SFCRetired
Regular Member
/snip-georg jetson/By "banned totally" do you mean banned from police use? I'm sure you're not advocating more restrictive and unconstitutional law./snip/
I should have made myself clear on that point. Yes, I did mean banned from police use. We have more than enough bad laws as it is without adding to the mix.
You are also correct about impedance. I did not understand that they operate in a series of pulses. Thank you for the link.
I should have made myself clear on that point. Yes, I did mean banned from police use. We have more than enough bad laws as it is without adding to the mix.
You are also correct about impedance. I did not understand that they operate in a series of pulses. Thank you for the link.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
Not me. I refuse to support a company that is only worried about their bottom line.
http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=34506
MilProGuy
Regular Member
I don't think they should be outlawed either.
I had a massive stroke in July and have been confined to a wheelchair for three months. After much rigorous physical therapy, I am now able to go for short distances walking with a cane out in public; and I'm giving serious thought to buying a cane with a built-in taser. The switch is located near the cane's hand grip.
sraacke
Regular Member
I don't think Taser makes a cane style version of their device. Maybe another company does.
JoeSparky
Centurion
With regard to why they use a series of pulses... this answer is an extrapolation of why the NEWER heart defibrillators use a biphasic impulse to defibrillate a heart. The studies have shown that the resistance to flow of the electrical impulse is LOWER for subsequent impulses sent within a few hundred milliseconds after the initial impulse! With a lower resistance or impedance one would receive a HIGHER effective delivered energy impulse on a following impulses in a tazer device sending a series of impulses with a singe activation.
since9
Campaign Veteran
Actually, there is absolute certainty that some current is flowing everywhere throughout the body. You're right, however, in that how much current flows through which path is a multi-path phenomenon based on impedences throughout the body. Good luck calculating it, although measuring it between any two points is fairly simple.
I find it incredulous that Wikipedia's entry on tasers details only those countries where they're illegal while ignoring the many countries where they're legal. Except the United States, of course. That's presented as a contrast to the others, as if the US is the odd man out when it comes to tasers. If this happened in the entries on guns, we'd fix it. We should fix this, too.
georg jetson
Regular Member
I was speaking of the current driven by the applied voltage of the Taser.
Measuring across 2 points is simple but gives a static result. The impedance between various point on the body is dynamic based on an individual's physiology and this changes over time.
since9
Campaign Veteran
So was I. Even with the electrodes imbedded in your chest, it will still create a potential, and thus a current, through every part of your body. In most areas it won't be strong enough to feel, but it'll still be there.
The other issue involves breakdown voltage, which causes the current to propagate more light lightening than a river flow.
Not over the three to five seconds of your typical tase.