stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

wrightme said:

Step 1 isn't always an option, because the OC'er is where he wants to be, and where he is legally able to be. IOW, the citizen need not depart to end the encounter.

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dman said:

"as my great pappy always said 'He who fight and runs away, can run away another day' " Bret Maverick

It's often better to walk away from a confrontation; but, you don't have to leave the store or the area...remember you can gauge how the situation will turn out. It's better to be the thermostat rather than the thermometer. If you feel the situation is going to get out of control, always remember step 8 and leave when legally possible.

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dman said:

I'm sure with absolute certainty, that this off-duty cop may have wanted some kind of a confrontation to show off to his kid. Why give him the satisfaction? Just as PO are taught to gauge their interaction, we as OCer's need to gauge our interactions, even with LEO.

I recently saw a video of an Orange County police officer stopping an OCer. Unlike the typical Police interactions you might expect, this PO calmly walk up to the OCer and informed him that dispatch received a call from a "Concerned Citizen" about a man with a gun. Immediately, the OCer exercised his 5th amendment right after informing the PO that he was exercising his 2nd amendment right. You can tell the PO was impressed with the OCer's demeanor and let him go with a pat on the back, even though the PO didn't detain or hold the OCer. At no time did the OCer disrespect, raise his voice or curse at the officer, nor did he attempt to engage the officer with legal banter. There is a place for that in opinion halls or meetings, forums or court rooms (preferable in a civil suit not criminal), etc.

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wrightme said:

So, if you are in line somewhere to make a purchase, and YOU are approached by an off-duty LE, you would leave the area and not make your purchases? If so, why?

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wrightme said:

Well, yeah. Are you claiming this faux stop fits that mold or not?

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wrightme said:

For the bold part, if LE insists upon working towards goals that are not supported by statute, and you KNOW the statute, would you not mention that to the LE?

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wrightme said:

And, for the record, no personal property should EVER be passed to someone as was done in this encounter. If such as that off-duty le really 'needed' to check something out, the proper method should have been to treat it as if he were a citizen and call it in to LE and have someone on duty check it out.

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SFCRetired said:

What would be the most likely outcome if you just gave him/her the "What? Are you stupid?" look and walked away?

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skidmark said:

Depending on the cop it may or may not get you tackled. I'd suggest that you dial 9-1-1 and report that you have been stopped by someone flashing a badge and want a uniformed unit to respond. Stay on the line with 9-1-1 until the uniformed unit shows up, and narrate anything the badge-flasher says or does while you are waiting - especially if he leaves the area. Start with where you are located and a description of the badge-flasher, and then just keep up a running conversation to keep the line open and the 9-1-1 recording going.

If the badge-flasher is legitimately a cop and has stepped outside departmental policy he will have to explain himself to higher-ups. IF he is some bozo with a crackerjack box badge (you can buy real badges at gunshows but only fakes via the internet - go figure) he will most likely not want to stick around and bluff the uniformed cop.

Things may be different where you live but in Virginia our Court of Appeals has ruled that an off-duty cop out of his jurisdiction can only make a citizen's arrest, even if he is in uniform and driving a vehicle with officially-sanctioned lights & siren. It would take me a bit to locate the case citation if anybody insists I post it. And since Magistrates really do not like issuing warrants or summonses for citizens who want to arrest someone, the general practice is to try to turn them over to a "real" cop for the arrest and following paperwork.

Hope this suggstion gives you an idea of the options open to you if confronted by a badge-flasher.

stay safe.

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SouthernBoy said:

Does anything like this apply if he is within his jurisdiction?

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skidmark said:

AFAIK the old saw about "cops are always on duty" would apply. Please let me know if you would like to endure the latest version of my rant on that subject. Or should we set up a poll and see if the readership at large would like to read it?

stay safe.

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speedycat said:

I was at Wal-Mart in Jackson County WV last night with a friend to pick up some 9mm. I was open carrying my G19 in its holster. We went back to sporting goods where a man with a young boy was talking to the cashier. The cashier stopped to assist me, I purchased my ammo, thanked the man and proceeded to leave when I heard an "excuse me!" I turned around and the man (in civilian clothes) had pulled out his wallet and flashed a badge at me. He wanted to see my concealed weapon permit and some ID. (note: you do not need a permit of any kind to OC in WV)

Regardless, I complied and gave him my papers. He also wanted me to remove my weapon from his holster. I slowly took it out, dropped the mag and took the round out of the chamber and handed it to him muzzle down and in slide lock. He called it in, ran my info and the serial on the gun. He kept saying how "odd" and "unusual" it was to see someone OC'ing. When he hung up I asked "Are you satisfied?" He said "Yes" and set my weapon on the counter. With his permission I reloaded my weapon and secured it in my holster.

I started to leave and he said "woah I'm not done with you yet!" I asked if I was being detained, to which he replied "No, I'm still checking you out" I asked again if I was being detained and he said "No" I asked if I was free to go and he again told me "No" I asked to see his badge again so I could get his name. He responded with "You damn sure can!" I can kick myself so hard for being unable to recall the name on the badge, but he was a Jackson County Deputy Sheriff. So I stood there and waited with him, his son, my friend and the cashier in very awkward and uncomfortable silence until his phone rang back and they told him I was indeed a law abiding citizen. I sure didn't feel like one during all this. I felt like I had done something wrong when I had not. It was an awful feeling. He told me I could go and to "stay out of trouble" I gathered my things and we left.


Is this a normal interaction with LE especially those who are off duty for people who OC? It was my first. I hope it's my last.

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OC for ME said:

It's not rocket science. The cop likely broke the law by conducting the stop/ID while off-duty. Press criminal charges. I am fairly confident that every state has some laws that make it a misdemeanor to do what the cop did. Pile on the charges. Force the DA/PA to publicly drop the charges/not prosecute. Then you have him on record condoning this type of illegal behavior by cops. Especially if the DA/PA is a elected position.

Get this nitwit cop's name out there in the public square too.

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PALO said:

i can't speak for every state, i can state in the three states i have worked as a LEO, there is no law whatsoever limiting off duty cops in regards to legal authority

iow, they have the EXACT same legal authority off duty as on duty.

however, in every agency i have worked for, in model policies, and in every agency i have read their policy, EVERY agency expects officers to be restrained in when they choose to act off duty.

THAT is very clear.

i can state in 20+ yrs of police work, i have made a couple of arrests off-duty. in over TWENTY YEARS. the last one was when a woman was beating another woman with a stick. i was not even armed, but i detained her until the local cops got there, gave them a statement and went on my way

it is UNLIKELY whatever state you are in, that there is a law limiting LEO police powers off duty.

it is ALMOST a 100% certainty that the agency he works for has POLICY that strongly discourages such actions, and places the burden on the LEO to explain why he felt the need to act.

basically, a rape in progress, serious felony assault, etc. are the kinds of things an off-duty cop CAN (but usually still i s not required to) get involved in

that's about it

for example, many times when i was younger and i was at a party, if somebody pulled out drugs or something, i simply left the party.

making an arrest would be INAPPROPRIATE even if the offense was a felony drug crime

fwiw, in most states, it is only limited commission, or special commission officers that do not have police powers off duty, or have more limited powers

for example, in many states, reserve officers have full police powers on duty, but none off duty

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PALO said:

i can't speak for every state, i can state in the three states i have worked as a LEO, there is no law whatsoever limiting off duty cops in regards to legal authority

iow, they have the EXACT same legal authority off duty as on duty.

however, in every agency i have worked for, in model policies, and in every agency i have read their policy, EVERY agency expects officers to be restrained in when they choose to act off duty.

THAT is very clear.

i can state in 20+ yrs of police work, i have made a couple of arrests off-duty. in over TWENTY YEARS. the last one was when a woman was beating another woman with a stick. i was not even armed, but i detained her until the local cops got there, gave them a statement and went on my way

it is UNLIKELY whatever state you are in, that there is a law limiting LEO police powers off duty.

it is ALMOST a 100% certainty that the agency he works for has POLICY that strongly discourages such actions, and places the burden on the LEO to explain why he felt the need to act.

basically, a rape in progress, serious felony assault, etc. are the kinds of things an off-duty cop CAN (but usually still i s not required to) get involved in

that's about it

for example, many times when i was younger and i was at a party, if somebody pulled out drugs or something, i simply left the party.

making an arrest would be INAPPROPRIATE even if the offense was a felony drug crime

fwiw, in most states, it is only limited commission, or special commission officers that do not have police powers off duty, or have more limited powers

for example, in many states, reserve officers have full police powers on duty, but none off duty

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thebigsd said:

Were you recording the incident?

If you are not being detained, walk away! If the officer tells you that you are being detained ask what his RAS is and then say nothing.

In this situation, you had no reason to provide your permit to him. You were OCing. You were not in the commission of a crime. The officer had no RAS, but you let him run right over you.

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