stopped by off duty deputy at Wal-Mart

[MAC702]

...Folks, we have another agent provocateur amongst us.

OT, but that was absolutely the best "SkimWords" link ever!

 

[jrob33]

Gneralizations can be a dangerous things my friends..to say the notion that Departments and officers rally around other offficers who are in the wrong "is a toal Lie" is just riddiculous. They absolutely have and still do. But the argument that "they" all always do is equally as dumb a statement. do departments go after dirty cops sometimes? Hell yes they do! there are tons of examples of this Do departments sometimes cover up for dirty officers?..HELL YES they do, there are also tons of examples of this. It depends on many factors, it depends on the Agency, the agency head, and sometimes it even depennds on what individual officer is dirty.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

It an especially egregious lie when so easily disproved.
To say something is a "Total Lie" means it has never happened, can never happen; yet the proof the incident happening was widely published.

Perhaps the words "total lie" mean something different to PALO than they do to the rest of the population? It's the only logical scenario I can come up with for his using the phrase.

 

[OC for ME]

My 2 cents as a Military Police Officer:
If I am stopped by personnel in plain clothes who present themselves to me as Law Enforcement, no matter if a badge is displayed or not I ask to see their dept issued photo identification. Do it POLITELY! "Could I please see your dept issued photo ID?"
1. If they refuse the cell phone comes out and 9-1-1 gets dialed. The conversation goes as follows "I am so and so and have been approached by someone not in uniform who says they are "police, sheriff, ect" but they refuse to show me photo identification." *This will get an IMMEDIATE response from on duty uniformed officers."
2. If they do present valid dept ID but are off duty I request that he have an on duty officer respond. If he refuses refer to above phone call just change it to I would like a uniformed on duty officer to respond.

Any police officer worth his salt will not be offended if asked to show ID when not in uniform. If they are rude or belligerent about it their dept should take care of that when you call them.
In my opinion the off duty officer trying to confiscate a persons firearm is wronger than a playboy bunny with a mustache.

Potter

What does the alleged cop do while you move your hand to a pocket, if not visibly clipped to your belt, to retrieve your cellphone?

Define the time limitation where it transitions from immediate to no longer immediate. Two minutes until a uniformed LEO arrives? Five minutes? 10 minutes? How long will you wait? What is the alleged LEO doing, staring at the ceiling?

There in lies the rub, I am not inclined to determine the 'salt' of a LEO. In fact, I am not required to know the 'salt' of a LEO. All citizens pay taxes so that some bureaucrat can determine their 'salt' prior to pinning a badge on their chest. If the LEO is truly 'off-duty', I can either tell him to pound sand. Or, start right off with 'am I being detained', if the answer is no, adios, I'm gone. That alleged LEO takes the contact any farther he will be in violation of the law.

I'm sure a sternly worded Post-it note to his immediate superior will 'educate' the wayward officer to not engage in any extra curricular activities while on his 'own time'.

Ya know what is funny about the 'file a complaint/lawsuit' path, it costs me money to file a complaint/lawsuit and it cost me money for the cops to defend against my complaint/lawsuit. But, since I like breathing and other such luxuries, I'm forced to file a complaint/lawsuit.

 

[OC for ME]

OT, but that was absolutely the best "SkimWords" link ever!

....link? There is no link attached to those words. I may have missed your intent and/or meaning. Sorry, I just barely get by on the Interwebs, a IBM Selectric II is more my speed.

 

[MAC702]

....link? There is no link attached to those words. I may have missed your intent and/or meaning. Sorry, I just barely get by on the Interwebs, a IBM Selectric II is more my speed.

Probably just happened on my end. SkimWords is a hidden program that many forums use to generate revenue by linking shopping results to some of the phrases on the page. I've tried to figure out how to disable it, but haven't figured it out. When I learned that the forums can generate revenue because of it, I stopped trying, though still never click on the links, until it picked a sample of your great vocabulary and I couldn't resist. Anyway, it was awesome. Sorry for the hijack.

 

[IrishRifles]

Any Cops/Lawyers Here?

screw'em

 

[Hardbuck90]

This is probably best answered by a cop or lawyer on here.

What would have happened if he would have said no right off, turned his back and headed for the front door with his purchase?

No one can answer that, not even the off duty deputy who stopped him. We can say what legal precedent the deputy had which was none in the first place but to be honest it could have ended very badly if he had decided to just walk away, not saying he didn't have the right to.

 

[IrishRifles]

screw'em.

 

[DocWalker]

Then why should a law-abiding citizen have to tolerate that treatment from 'anyone' if he/she did nothing wrong? It sounds like nothing but pure unprovoked harassment and abuse of authority. Does he do that with every single person he sees with an OC or was he just singling out this guy because he has a bug up his ass? No one should have to take that abuse, it's total disrespect on the cops part along with his parting wise ass remark of "stay out of trouble". That would have clinched it for me.

One may make the comparison of the off duty officer standing in the parking lot asking people to see their DL before they get into their car. Nobody would stand for it, the off duty LE has no right to ask people for their DL just because they are getting into a car just like he has no RAS to harrass someone for LEGALLY OCing.

 

[Viking]

off duty cop power

What ARE the limits of police power for an "off duty" cop ? Here in AZ, as far as I know, the only cops that are "on duty" 24/7 are AZ DPS.
I'm certianly correctable on this subject and unless a store employee made a complaint, most off duty cops here would probably have paid
only minimal attention, let alone detain an OC'er !! Educate me, please !

 

[JoeSparky]

It doesn't matter if they are off duty or on duty....LEO have no right to stop you and demand ANYTHING without RAS of a crime.

This I can agree with and support fully "RAS of a crime" as a minimum requirement!

 

[DocWalker]

It doesn't matter if they are off duty or on duty....LEO have no right to stop you and demand ANYTHING without RAS of a crime.

Agreed, I was using this case and trying to put it into another context since in this case the officer was off duty. I agree 100% it doesn't matter if the officer is on or off duty they need RAS.

 

[ViperGTS19801]

"Show me your permit."
"No."
"What?!"
"I said, 'No.'"
"You've got a gun on you and I want to see your permit!"
"The two are not mutually inclusive. If I've broken any laws, arrest me - otherwise, have a nice day."

 

[MyWifeSaidYes]

"Show me your permit."
"No."
"What?!"
"I said, 'No.'"
"You've got a gun on you and I want to see your permit!"
"The two are not mutually inclusive. If I've broken any laws, arrest me - otherwise, have a nice day."

Almost, but not quite.

"Show me your permit."
"No."
...then walk away.

There. Fixed it for ya'!

 

[Logan 5]

About the OP, dude, if he's off duty or if you have any reason to suspect that he's not a cop, just ignore him and keep walking. No one can force you to obey the orders of another person under those conditions. If he threatens to arrest you, fine. Let him arrest you. THEN let's see how the court handles this.
1) He's off duty.
2) He's not employed by Wal Mart (IIRC).
3) It's not a life or death situation.

Me, personally, I'd tell him to F-O.

Almost, but not quite.

"Show me your permit."
"No."
...then walk away.

There. Fixed it for ya'!

Well, certainly more polite than I have been.

I'm a little surprised nobody has told our new member "welcome" yet (welcome!),
also that nobody has yet mentioned a few standard bits of advice:

1) carry sterile. Since you don't need a license to OC, leave it in the car. Ditto for your driver's license or other ID, unless you're planning to buy something they'll need to check your age for. Then there's no way a rogue cop can coerce or trick you into handing it over, and no way they can forcibly search you & take it.

2) watch the videos at [url]www.flexyourrights.org[/URL] They're also available on YouTube.

3) watch the video on YouTube titled "Don't Talk to Police". That's the 48-minute long version, & there are shorter part 1 & part 2 versions that all amount to the same thing. Part 1 is a law professor talking at warp speed, telling the class all the reasons they shouldn't talk to cops ["god bless the 5th Amendment"], part 2 is a law student who used to be a LEO basically confirming everything the professor says.

There's a thread over on the WI forum that has a lot of helpful info for a new carrier. Much is WI-specific, but there's a good deal of it that's general rights-related.

For example, you were arrested.
Physical seizure of person by arresting officer or submission to officer's authority and control is necessary to constitute an "arrest."
Thompson v. Boston Pub. Co., 285 Mass. 344, 189 N.E. 210, 213.
It is a restraint however slight, on another's liberty to come and go.
Turney v. Rhodes, 42 Ga.App. 104, 155 S.E. 112.

In that thread there's a link to the Don't Talk to Cops video in large bold red letters, right above a list of other useful videos, many from FlexYourRights.

I have to say that this has GOT to be the most logical and well thought out and well produced post yet. Kudos to you MKEgal!