Open Carry incident with police today, Tukwila

deanf · Feb 10, 2012

The only things I didn't reveal are people's names and full dates of birth, which actually did go out over the public airwaves, or are otherwise publicly available records. There is nothing else to share.

badkarma · Feb 10, 2012

Sounds like the "retired" police officer knew some tips of the trade(See http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/02/02/three-tiers-of-police-citizen-encounters/ for a good explaination).

gogodawgs · Feb 10, 2012

deanf said:
The only things I didn't reveal are people's names and full dates of birth, which actually did go out over the public airwaves, or are otherwise publicly available records. There is nothing else to share.

Roger that. Interestingly enough I did some Christmas shopping at that Ross in December as well as in Federal Way and even remembering nodding at security as I left the building. Maybe some more shopping at Ross is in order soon.

OlGutshotWilly · Feb 10, 2012

gogodawgs said:
deanf's profile reveals he works as a firefighter.

So it was probably more secure lines than the public scanner.

dean...if you would be interested in reaching out to me, I would like to know more. This can be done in confidence.

My point, exactly.

Those of us in the business have much more direct ways of listening to or watching the communications than what has been referred to as a "Scanner". Coming from Dean, I have no doubt that this played out exactly as reported.

DocWalker · Feb 10, 2012

badkarma said:
Sounds like the "retired" police officer knew some tips of the trade(See http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/02/02/three-tiers-of-police-citizen-encounters/ for a good explaination).

It is like going to the Emergency Room, if there is a 5 hour wait just tell them you are having chest pain and you will be moved to the front of the line. I don't care if isn't due to a carciac problem. It is all in the choice of words.

Lammo · Feb 10, 2012

skidmark said:
You folks are aware that the cops can talk with you for hours without ever violating your Mranda/Edwards rights, aren't you? Those things only apply with respect to custodial interrogations. Asking you for ID information is not considered an interrogation. Neither is talking about the weather, or last night's big game, or the price of tea in China - all of which cops may engage in to see if your behavior will suggest that they press further towards thinking you are about to commit, are committing, or have committed a crime.

I suggest that you tell the nice officer that you do not wish to speak with him and that you desire that he stop annoying you. If he persists, call 9-1-1 to report someone verbally and (possibly) physically assaulting you.

stay safe.

True but we out here in the west have our own body of state "constitutional" law. Our court of final error ruled a few years ago that the arrival of a second officer who stood back just to keep an eye on things transformed an otherwise consensual street encounter into a seizure. This is from the prosecutor's association search and seizure manual (LINK: http://www.waprosecutors.org/MANUALS/search/May 2011 final SEIZURE AND CONFESSIONS.pdf):

Conversion into a Seizure
Washington courts will review a social contact for evidence that progressive intrusions have converted the contact into a seizure. A contact that a reasonable person may feel free to discontinue at its inception, may mature into a contact that a reasonable person would not feel free to leave. State v. Harrington, 167 Wn.2d 656, 222 P.3d 92 (2009), presents an example of a progressive intrusion that culminated in a seizure in violation of Const. art. I, § 7. The social contact in Harrington began with an officer pulling his patrol car into a driveway in a manner that did not block the sidewalk. The officer exited the patrol car, whose lights had not been activated, and moved to the grassy area that was adjacent to the sidewalk, so as to not block the path of anyone who was walking on the sidewalk. The officer then asked an approaching pedestrian "Hey, can I talk to you" or "Mind if I talk to you for a minute?" Upon the pedestrian’s affirmative response, the officer, standing five feet from the pedestrian began a conversation that included a question about where the pedestrian was coming from.

The subsequent events that converted this lawful social contact into a seizure included:
• The officer asking the pedestrian if he would remove his hands from his the pedestrian’s pockets.
• The coincidental appearance of a state trooper, who made a u-turn, upon noticing an officer speaking alone with an individual. The state trooper parked his patrol car in the northbound lane of travel, 10 to 30 feet, from the on-going social contact. The trooper exited his marked patrol car, and stood, silently, 7 to 8 feet from the pedestrian.
• The officer, upon the arrival of the trooper, asked if he could pat the pedestrian down for officer safety. The officer, at the time of making this request, told the pedestrian that he was not under arrest.

END QUOTED SECTION

This type of seizure still does not implicate Miranda, at least not yet. I point this out because on my trip to the National Advocacy Center in Columbia, SC, my eastern colleagues were amazed that our courts would do such a thing as provide greater protection to citizens from unreasonable law enforcement activities.

5918mike · Feb 10, 2012

DocWalker said:
The "ritired" officer that called 911 to report a "Drunk" MWAG should be charged with abusing the 911 system. Sociaty needs to come up with a penalty for crying wolf just because they feel uncomfortable. How about charging the person calling with the bill for the time, gas, and expense related to the response to the bogus calls just because they are uncomfortable with someone expressing their Constitutional rights.

Sorry this just pisses me off.

It's a tough one for sure because police will often times tell people that if they see something that they think isn't right to call 911. I've been at plenty of community watch meetings with police and they reinforce this behavior over and over again. "Anything out of the ordinary" is said a lot, to be honest for most people a guy with a holstered exposed gun may be out of the ordinary.

p2a1x7 · Feb 10, 2012

5918mike said:
It's a tough one for sure because police will often times tell people that if they see something that they think isn't right to call 911. I've been at plenty of community watch meetings with police and they reinforce this behavior over and over again. "Anything out of the ordinary" is said a lot, to be honest for most people a guy with a holstered exposed gun may be out of the ordinary.

A retired police officer who knows OC is legal should know better than that. I think he was abusing 911 is he did in fact call 911. I doubt he could be charged with anything though.

BigDave · Feb 10, 2012

No doubt is sounds like the retired officer manipulated the situation to fit his/her own needs for what ever reason.

A note on the issue of scanners and use today, granted there is some but not all information goes across the radio but many departments have, as we know computers that they use for relaying of information with greater detail about the incidents and it appears the public does not have access to that information which could contain the information needed to further their actions.

5918mike · Feb 10, 2012

p2a1x7 said:
A retired police officer who knows OC is legal should know better than that. I think he was abusing 911 is he did in fact call 911. I doubt he could be charged with anything though.

Maybe but I don't expect every retired LEO to know current Washington State gun laws.

gogodawgs · Feb 10, 2012

5918mike said:
Maybe but I don't expect every retired LEO to know current Washington State gun laws.

I would guess that he retired from California.

p2a1x7 · Feb 10, 2012

5918mike said:
Maybe but I don't expect every retired LEO to know current Washington State gun laws.

I read the original post a little wrong. I was under the impression that the retired LEO knew that OC was legal beforehand and called anyways. And I thought he included the drunk/high part to give them a better reason to hassle the guy.

deanf · Feb 10, 2012

I read the original post a little wrong. I was under the impression that the retired LEO knew that OC was legal beforehand and called anyways. And I thought he included the drunk/high part to give them a better reason to hassle the guy.

It's unknown if the RP knew prior to the call that Washington is an OC state. The dispatcher may have told him so. His motivation for including the information about the flushed appearance is unknown.

This is the second or third OC incident that I'm aware of in and around Lesser Tukwila in the last year. Tukwila PD and Valley Com, their dispatch center, seem at least functionally aware of the issue.

deanf · Feb 10, 2012

This is a gold mine. How come I didn't know about this before? It's like discovering the Nazi code books . . .

gogodawgs · Feb 10, 2012

deanf said:
It's unknown if the RP knew prior to the call that Washington is an OC state. The dispatcher may have told him so. His motivation for including the information about the flushed appearance is unknown.

This is the second or third OC incident that I'm aware of in and around Lesser Tukwila in the last year. Tukwila PD and Valley Com, their dispatch center, seem at least functionally aware of the issue.[/COLOR]

I stopped in the Ross today during my lunch. Nodded to the "Loss Prevention" officer working the door. Shopped around a bit and noticed a non-uniformed kid watching me, so I smiled back! Was in for 15-20 minutes with no issues.

MilProGuy · Feb 10, 2012

Schlepnier said:
Having a flushed face without any further information is nothing...

Dude may have had a bad case of rosacea. Just sayin'. :lol:

Hardbuck90 · Feb 11, 2012

deanf said:
This is not me or anyone I know.

Also reported is that the RP is retired law enforcement, and is “uncomfortable”, even with the knowledge that Washington is an open carry state.

The second part answers it, He felt it was his duty knowing full well that is was legal... :banghead:

arentol · Feb 11, 2012

badkarma said:
Sounds like the "retired" police officer knew some tips of the trade(See http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2012/02/02/three-tiers-of-police-citizen-encounters/ for a good explaination).

Wow, the guy in that video sure screwed up what "reasonable" means in RAS.... Stealing brains and making people into Zombies? Really? WTF?

Why didn't he go back to Terry, where the guys walk in front of the store 24 times and talk to a third party multiple times. 24 times and a third party makes the suspicion reasonable. Heck, even 10 times without a third party or possibly 6 times with a 3rd party could result in reasonable suspicion. But 4 times and no third party? Not reasonable yet, keep observing. If they are really going to commit a crime they will give you more reason for your RAS, and if not, they will move along.

JoeSparky · Feb 11, 2012

MilProGuy said:
Dude may have had a bad case of rosacea. Just sayin'. :lol:

Heaven forbid that he may have take a single misstep while being observed by the officers as well!

sudden valley gunner · Feb 11, 2012

Lammo said:
True but we out here in the west have our own body of state "constitutional" law. Our court of final error ruled a few years ago that the arrival of a second officer who stood back just to keep an eye on things transformed an otherwise consensual street encounter into a seizure. This is from the prosecutor's association search and seizure manual (LINK: http://www.waprosecutors.org/MANUALS/search/May 2011 final SEIZURE AND CONFESSIONS.pdf):

Conversion into a Seizure
Washington courts will review a social contact for evidence that progressive intrusions have converted the contact into a seizure. A contact that a reasonable person may feel free to discontinue at its inception, may mature into a contact that a reasonable person would not feel free to leave. State v. Harrington, 167 Wn.2d 656, 222 P.3d 92 (2009), presents an example of a progressive intrusion that culminated in a seizure in violation of Const. art. I, § 7. The social contact in Harrington began with an officer pulling his patrol car into a driveway in a manner that did not block the sidewalk. The officer exited the patrol car, whose lights had not been activated, and moved to the grassy area that was adjacent to the sidewalk, so as to not block the path of anyone who was walking on the sidewalk. The officer then asked an approaching pedestrian "Hey, can I talk to you" or "Mind if I talk to you for a minute?" Upon the pedestrian’s affirmative response, the officer, standing five feet from the pedestrian began a conversation that included a question about where the pedestrian was coming from.

The subsequent events that converted this lawful social contact into a seizure included:
• The officer asking the pedestrian if he would remove his hands from his the pedestrian’s pockets.
• The coincidental appearance of a state trooper, who made a u-turn, upon noticing an officer speaking alone with an individual. The state trooper parked his patrol car in the northbound lane of travel, 10 to 30 feet, from the on-going social contact. The trooper exited his marked patrol car, and stood, silently, 7 to 8 feet from the pedestrian.
• The officer, upon the arrival of the trooper, asked if he could pat the pedestrian down for officer safety. The officer, at the time of making this request, told the pedestrian that he was not under arrest.

END QUOTED SECTION

This type of seizure still does not implicate Miranda, at least not yet. I point this out because on my trip to the National Advocacy Center in Columbia, SC, my eastern colleagues were amazed that our courts would do such a thing as provide greater protection to citizens from unreasonable law enforcement activities.

Good post! But I couldn't get the link to work said access forbidden.

Open Carry incident with police today, Tukwila

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