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Thread: The answer that most CC'ers give in opposition to OC

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    Regular Member IdahoOpenCarry's Avatar
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    The answer that most CC'ers give in opposition to OC

    When I man our Idaho Open Carry booth at various shows, I find myself debating many CC'ers who oppose OC. Their most common response is, "It makes people feel uncomfortable."
    My answer to them is, "How do you know?" The truth of the matter is that "THEY" feel uncomfortable with OC. They are "gun shy!" Even though Open Carry is the most beautiful, bold representation of the 2nd Amendment, they refuse to participate with excuses that just don't wash.
    Everyone has heard this one, "It makes you a target for the BG's." There is no recorded evidence that an OC'er has been targeted by a BG. The the excuse is bogus and reveals that they are afraid of a BG ghost that doesn't exist.
    And the most ridiculous excuse given by opponents is, "OC'ers are just posturing."
    The best answer to "posturing" was written byNavyLCDR in the USACarry.com forum, taking a portion of his response from the dictionary.
    pos-ture
    1.a. A position of the body or of body parts: a sitting posture.
    b. An attitude; a pose: assumed a posture of angry defiance.
    2. A Characteristic way of bearing one's body; carriage: stood with good posture.
    3. Relative placement or arrangement; the posture of the buildings on the land.
    4. A stance or disposition with regard to something: "Those bases are essentially to our military posture in the Middle East" (Gerard Smith).
    5. A frame of mind affecting one's thoughts or behavior; an overall attitude.

    NavyLCDR goes on to say, "Open carry makes a visible statement to the criminal, and whoever else wants to observe it, that I am not going to be and easy and defenseless target for criminal activity. Nothing wrong or evil about that at all.

    By the way, I am angrily defiant. I am angry that criminals have been given free reign to do whatever the hell they want to in this country with little hindrance. I simply choose to provide that hindrance to their actions.

    I choose to engage in an active deterrence to crime, rather than passively possess the means to defend myself against a criminal who has already utilized their "element of surprise" to gain the upper hand prompting the need for defensive action."

    End of quote by NavyLCDR

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    Last edited by IdahoOpenCarry; 02-13-2012 at 12:04 AM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Bravo!
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Right on target, IOC! (Pun intended)

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    when I would work dallas gun shows handing out open carry literature, the majority of people I would talk to that disagreed with OC had to deal with 'elitism'.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    OC is not embraced by the masses because, among other reasons, it is an activity that (generally) does not require government permission. Those that OC are thus truely free, and that mightily annoys those who are not willing to stand up and asert their freedom.

    It also scares those who, like the hoplophobes, fear what they might do in other areas if they asserted their freedom. Instead, they project both their own fears and the rationalizations against OC to keep from expressing freedom in any aspect of their lives.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    When you read the Defensive/CC carry forums, CC-ers get all hot and bothered taking their gun, under two layers of clothing in a walk through Wally World. There's more than one who has reported on having done a concealed walk-through successfully (wut?).

    Besides the people who go to Wal&mart being so darn strange that people are busy looking at them, the firearm is hidden, non-visible, concealed, sheltered from view. It's like taking an invisible dog to the dog-park and exchanging high fives afterwards with other non-dog walkers.
    Last edited by sawah; 02-13-2012 at 08:50 PM.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    When you read the Defensive/CC carry forums, CC-ers get all hot and bothered taking their gun, under two layers of clothing in a walk through Wally World. There's more than one who has reported on having done a concealed walk-through successfully (wut?).

    Besides the people who go to Wal&mart being so darn strange that people are busy looking at them, the firearm is hidden, non-visible, concealed, sheltered from view. It's like taking an invisible dog to the dog-park and exchanging high fives afterwards with other non-dog walkers.
    Your kidding right? (WUT?) is right.

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wethepeople View Post
    Your kidding right? (WUT?) is right.
    Go to Defensive Carry dot Com and search Walmart Walk, conceal carry walmart and read and be amused.

    For example: (no links)
    "have-you-ever-wondered-if-wallyworlds-employes-know.html" (story of new CHL and walking in Wal&mart checking nervously to see if they're printing).
    "What is the Wally World Walk exactly?"
    "Wal&mart Walk: A Pictorial Journey"

    I don't mean to make fun. I'm sure it's a thrill for 40 year old (handgun) virgins.
    Last edited by sawah; 02-13-2012 at 11:28 PM.
    A firearm is a tool of convenience, not effectiveness - Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    About two years ago, I was in a local grocery store rambling through the produce section when a little elderly lady saw my sidearm and asked, "Is that a gun?" (or something very close to that... may have been, "Is that a real gun?"). I decided to answer with a friendly, comical response and said, "Gee I hope so, otherwise I picked up the wrong thing". She, in her rather strong New England accent, said that she was afraid of people with guns. That's when I asked her, "How do you feel when you're around police? Are you afraid of them?". She didn't know quite how to answer that and stumbled a bit with her words.

    I find it queer and a bit strange that people would be afraid of a citizen peacefully carrying a sidearm, but very comfortable with police doing it. I know the reasons but I do find it odd.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    "OCers will be the first to be shot."
    "OCers are attention ******."
    "OCers will have their gun taken."
    "OCers will be hassled by police."

    And last but not least:
    "I (CCers) want the element of "surprise"."

    Basically, what it all comes down to, IMO, is fear. They're afraid to carry openly. Which is fine. I've done it about a dozen times and I'm still not comfortable - it is intimidating to walk around openly carrying a firearm. Being afraid to carry openly is ok, but at least they could be honest about it, not trying to cover it up with excuses as listed above.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    "OCers will be the first to be shot."
    We have not seen this to be the case. Yes there was one but one out of how many?? Statistically it is not an issue.

    "OCers are attention ******."
    I will grant that some fall into this category. We see them posting on youtube. But those are in the minority I would bet.

    "OCers will have their gun taken."
    Again, no rush to this taking place.

    "OCers will be hassled by police."
    Yes, this has certainly happened and it's usually in the fence sitting states (those where the demographics tend not to be so friendly to guns and gun people in general). Educating the local police is the best way to reduce this.

    And last but not least:
    "I (CCers) want the element of 'surprise'."
    Someone who CC's, and I'm sure most OC'ers do CC from time to time, looks just like the rest of the public at large since their gun is hidden. To a perp, they are as much of a target as anyone else. The thing a lot of CC'ers tend to overlook, forget, or ignore is that an attack can happen VERY quickly and many times I would bet quickly enough that the victim hasn't the time to draw his weapon and use it.

    My own personal take is that I support both methods of carry and view them as personal choices, where such is available by law, and where having a gun with you is better than having none at all on your person. I don't have a bias because I do view this as a person decision. What I do find curious is that while all of the OC'ers I have met support concealed carry whereas a number of CC'ers I have met and have read on websites are strongly biased, read that as prejudiced, against those who choose to OC. One would think we're all in the same boat but it appears that only half of us are on board.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 02-14-2012 at 09:11 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Guy in a walmart said to me "I like it out of sight, out of mind."

    I said "I like it in sight, on your mind."


    He left.

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    Yep I hear the same thing all the time. I CC & OC. Each serves their own purpose.

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    I recently had a friendly debate with my dad about OC v CC. I personally support and practice both. He has the usual arguments such as making yourself a target, being the first one shot, someone will sneak up behind you and grab your gun. I told him that in any of those situations the problem would be solved if multiple people were OCing. That would be a very bold BG to take on several OCers at once. He agreed with my point but still doesn't want the looks and attention. While I don't like the looks and attention either, I'm starting to OC more to try to overcome my self-consciousness.

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    Regular Member G30Mike's Avatar
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    My dad also asked "what if someone tries to grab it?"
    I invited him to give it a try...he respectfully declined. I think then and there he realized that my holster keeps it in there pretty well and he'd get a few punches and elbows to the head before he could get it out. He doesn't carry a gun at all and the only pistols he's ever shot were mine. Also his girlfriend is a hippie libtard that HATES guns. She about had a coniption fit when she saw myself, my sister, and my girlfriend all OCing during Christmas. The look on her face was priceless. Then I showed my dad my AR, she left the room....
    My aunt is a CCer and strongly opposed me OCing. She's one of the ones that likes the "element of surprise". She accused me of having a "don't F with me attitude" the way I carry. I informed her that yes I do have that attitude to a certain extent, I want to let the criminals know I don't want to be Fd with. She hasn't said anything to me about it since.
    "Ever notice once in a while you come across somebody you shouldn't have f***ed with......That's me." -Clint Eastwood "Gran Torino"

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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    I was in the store today getting the last of our groceries loaded up when a lady with one of those ginormous long carts with baby in it tried to push past me, around someone stopped in her 'lane'. She looked and saw that she'd have to run into my leg to get by but unable to wait 20 seconds she rammed me in the leg. I said 'Oh so you couldn't wait and just had to run into my leg?'. She just kept going. I thought to myself, 'I bet if I had my gun exposed she'd have thought twice about ramming me in the leg with her freaking cart'. /fume
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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    I was in the store today getting the last of our groceries loaded up when a lady with one of those ginormous long carts with baby in it tried to push past me, around someone stopped in her 'lane'. She looked and saw that she'd have to run into my leg to get by but unable to wait 20 seconds she rammed me in the leg. I said 'Oh so you couldn't wait and just had to run into my leg?'. She just kept going. I thought to myself, 'I bet if I had my gun exposed she'd have thought twice about ramming me in the leg with her freaking cart'. /fume
    If there were no children in the cart - you dump her cart over onto the ground. If there were children in the cart - you dump her cart over onto the ground lol, no really though, take a handful of **** from her cart and just throw it on the floor, ask her if she is mad, then sing the trolololol song as you dance off.
    Last edited by Schlitz; 02-14-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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    Regular Member sawah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    If there were no children in the cart - you dump her cart over onto the ground. If there were children in the cart - you dump her cart over onto the ground lol, no really though, take a handful of **** from her cart and just throw it on the floor, ask her if she is mad, then sing the trolololol song as you dance off.
    Well, at first I wished I had done more and then I tried not to let it get to me but I failed and fumed the whole drive home. It wasn't pleasant and it was difficult to master that feeling. In the store I kept looking to my 6 to make sure I wasn't going to be run into, but I must have looked away at precisely the moment she rolled up. Having a childish reaction wouldn't have made me feel better, I don't think. I don't know what people are thinking when they do that. It's like there's a lemming response to 'get to the car and run over anyone in the way'.
    Last edited by sawah; 02-14-2012 at 10:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sawah View Post
    When you read the Defensive/CC carry forums, CC-ers get all hot and bothered taking their gun, under two layers of clothing in a walk through Wally World. There's more than one who has reported on having done a concealed walk-through successfully (wut?).

    Besides the people who go to Wal&mart being so darn strange that people are busy looking at them, the firearm is hidden, non-visible, concealed, sheltered from view. It's like taking an invisible dog to the dog-park and exchanging high fives afterwards with other non-dog walkers.
    WTF? What forums are you reading? basementdwellersconcealedcarry.net?
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daylen View Post
    WTF? What forums are you reading? basementdwellersconcealedcarry.net?
    Actually I know exactily the forum he's talking about. Go to www.defensivecarry.org and just look around, especialy in the Open Carry subsection of the forum. Some of the most anti-OC, vile, hateful, misinformed things you will ever read are regularly posted in threads there. Also take a trip over to USACarry.org and read through some of the threads there with particular eye owrds the Open Carry subsection of that forum. Defensive Carry had so many flame wars start up over the topic of Open Carry that they created the subsection of Open Carry where OCers could go and discuss OC without getting harrassed by the naysayers. After a while they changed the policy to allow the OC section to be a free for all because the moderators got overwhelmed trying to control the threads and delete the posts of all of the anti-OC folks who insisted on trolling that section. I don't worry so much about the Brady Center To Prevent Handgun Violence or whatever it's called. I really don't. It's the guys (and gals) who are supposed to be our allies in the gun hobby who are activly hamstringing us that I dispise the most.
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    I've had CCers tell me I'm "hurting the cause" by OCing. I'm "taking away our freedom" for OCing. I had one post on a local, generally CC forum but, posted in the OC part and boy, was I flamed. How am I taking away our freedom by exercising it?
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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOneChick View Post
    I've had CCers tell me I'm "hurting the cause" by OCing. I'm "taking away our freedom" for OCing. I had one post on a local, generally CC forum but, posted in the OC part and boy, was I flamed. How am I taking away our freedom by exercising it?
    I know. There are plenty of those types of threads or posts at some of those other sites. Here's a good example at USACarry.
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...tml#post272719
    OC'ers are nutty
    I think the OC crowd is kind of nutty, just like the Westboro Baptist Church is kind of nutty. Every group has their nutty folks, and in the gun owners/lovers world, the OC'ers are nutty, IMO. Kind of like motorcycle riders...we all love 2 wheels, the wind in our face, etc., but the HD riders think their chit don't stink, and if you ride a Honda then you are not a true biker. I am mostly turned off by the attitudes from the OC'ers, much like I am turned off by the attitudes of the HD riders. Open carry to your hearts content, I just wonder if you don't hurt the cause more than you help.
    Or this thread which is 35 pages long...
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-strategy.html
    Why Open Carry is a bad Strategy

    Open Carry has many fans, but when it comes down to a firefight, it will fail you.

    When you Open Carry, you are signaling the world that you are prepared for a fight, even if you are just bluffing!

    Bad Guys are not afraid of you unless you are actually ready to fight.

    And they aren't going to give you that chance.

    Combat Strategy demands that you have the offensive, the edge, the element of surprise.

    Tactics learned on the conventional firing range are worthless in a real fight. The Bad Guys aren't going to give you time to get ready, and sight in on them. They want to win, at your expense.

    Concealed Carry is the way to go on the streets. You get the element of surprise.
    Remember in my earlier post I mentioned that the owners of Defensive Carry changed the way they handle the OC section of their forum? At the top of that section is this Stickie...
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...rry-forum.html
    Changes to the Open Carry forum

    When we originally opened this forum, I added a notation that this was not the place to "debate the virtues of open carry", essentially making it a protected forum. I have, since then, debated whether this was the right thing to do since we did not place any restrictions on other forums.

    Open carry is a controversial subject, particularly when those that do OC do so specifically to garner attention to the practice. While we still discourage arguments over this topic, we will no longer offer "protection" for those who's practices invoke controversy. We now all stand on even ground but we will not hesitate to issue infractions for those that cross the line in comments and rebuttals.

    If you can accept these changes, we will continue to welcome you to this forum. If not, there is another forum out there that may be more to your liking....
    This opened up that part of the forum to anti-OC attacks like seen at USA Carry.

    More anit-OC goodness from USA Carry....

    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...pen-carry.html
    I think it's a bad idea. concealed carry gives you time to address the situation, identify how many are involved and gives you the element of surprise. with open carry if your not alert 100 % of the time you could easily be the first target.
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...en-weapon.html
    Bad idea People that see a exposed weapon are not comfotable and look odd at pearson. Allways conceal it.
    Last edited by sraacke; 02-15-2012 at 12:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOneChick View Post
    I've had CCers tell me I'm "hurting the cause" by OCing. I'm "taking away our freedom" for OCing. I had one post on a local, generally CC forum but, posted in the OC part and boy, was I flamed. How am I taking away our freedom by exercising it?
    Yep, I've been told on another shooting forum that my "pet cause" was going to make businesses post their stores with "no firearms" signs.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    Yep, I've been told on another shooting forum that my "pet cause" was going to make businesses post their stores with "no firearms" signs.


    Why is that confusing and wrong?


    Listen, I'm not defending the arguments against OC, we all know most of them are rubbish. But, sometimes, there are unintended consequences.

    For example, we came a hair's breath from getting open carry in Florida last year. Some sneaky underhanded politics at the final buzzer, combined with some very poor choice of wording used to campaign FOR the bill, killed it.

    But, the way I understand things, the Retail Federation was bucking to have the legislature give "no firearms" signs some bite. Making it a criminal offense to ignore a posted sign.

    Currently, in Florida, I can carry (Concealed that is) just about anywhere I choose. I can't carry in bars, schools, fed buildings, cop stations, and that's just about it. If it ain't on that list, I can carry. Period. Meaning, a business owner can post all the cotton picking signs they want. They're pretty signs, but, they mean nothing to me. I can admire them as I walk by them if if makes them feel better. LOL

    If the Retail Federation had gotten their way, those sign would now prohibit me (a law abiding citizen) from carrying in there. Basically, severely restricting my freedom to carry. Fortunately, once the open carry bill died, the Retail Federation backed off their wishes.

    Now, I don't know how much of a chance they had to get their way, but, one cannot discount the possibility they could have gotten it. Bad ideas get passed for law all the time. Would it stand up to test of court? Who knows, but, me? I'm not willing to gamble my freedoms that way. I may not like the fact that we don't have the choice to carry OC, but, at least we can still carry to protect ourselves and our family just about anywhere we want to go.

    OC's day will come. But, it shouldn't be at the cost of other freedoms. Those that were fighting at the State level wisely gave up to fight another day, hopefully, without the potential backlash.

    So, don't knock some claims. While we may not like hearing/seeing them, there is some risk present that could make them right.
    Last edited by JeepSeller; 02-15-2012 at 02:33 PM.

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