First LEO encounter... Confronted at gunpoint

[estcrh]

Wheels are in motion.

Glad to hear it, a favorite quote of mine>>> He who is always his own counseller will often have a fool for his client.

 

[georg jetson]

Glad to hear it, a favorite quote of mine>>> He who is always his own counseller will often have a fool for his client.

Another excuse... this quote is in reference to having an advocate represent someone at TRIAL. It's important to remove emotion from the trial process so as to keep the head clear. It's almost impossible to remove emotion at one's own trial. This is not an excuse to remain a legal moron. It was the intention from the beginning that the citizenry would need to keep themselves educated in the law. That is why we are a government of the people and by the people. Today we are ignorant people that take what the government hands us because our nonexistent understanding of the law prevents us from helping ourselves.

In the amount of time you've spent trying to convince people that only attorneys are capable of understanding the apparent "magic" of law, you could have read a book on criminal procedure and would now be that much more useful as a citizen who knows how to use the courts to govern themselves. You seem to me and intelligent man... It would be a benefit to us all if people such as yourself would do their duty and study law on an ongoing basis.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

 

[estcrh]

Another excuse... this quote is in reference to having an advocate represent someone at TRIAL. It's important to remove emotion from the trial process so as to keep the head clear. It's almost impossible to remove emotion at one's own trial. This is not an excuse to remain a legal moron. It was the intention from the beginning that the citizenry would need to keep themselves educated in the law. That is why we are a government of the people and by the people. Today we are ignorant people that take what the government hands us because our nonexistent understanding of the law prevents us from helping ourselves.

In the amount of time you've spent trying to convince people that only attorneys are capable of understanding the apparent "magic" of law, you could have read a book on criminal procedure and would now be that much more useful as a citizen who knows how to use the courts to govern themselves. You seem to me and intelligent man... It would be a benefit to us all if people such as yourself would do their duty and study law on an ongoing basis.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

I have owned and worked on my cars since I was 16, but unless you can keep up with all the current advances in technology etc when it comes to something thats very important and complicated I still take my car to a professional who works on cars on a daily basis and has more knowledge then I do..its a personal choice as to what one decides to become well versed on in life.

I own a lot of property and usually do not use an attorney but when the situation calls for it (like purchasing or selling a co-op in NY) I do not hesitate to get some EXPERT help. I know my limitations and do not pretend to know more than I do. In a recent confrontation with the IRS I did my research but still CONSULTED an expert and in the end in part due to the advice of this expert I prevailed.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that someone has more experience or knowledge that I do on a particular subject. Maybe some people here have had a negative experience when they sought legal advise or have heard horror stories..or perhaps PRIDE keeps them from seeking the advise of a specialist but I have had good results when I consult someone who has specialized knowledge of complex situations and problem and I always get a better end result...its the END RESULT that counts after all.

 

[NRAMARINE]

Glad to hear it, a favorite quote of mine>>> He who is always his own counseller will often have a fool for his client.

???????? As I said wheels are in motion. Just because you may not be directly involved doesn't mean things aren't happening. If you understood legal matters as you say, you would concede that details of this nature should not be put on display for all to see. Rest assured, actions are being taken. This is not over, however matters like this need to be handled with a certain level of discretion and must be done PRECISELY the first time.

 

[IA-Pro]

I have owned and worked on my cars since I was 16, but unless you can keep up with all the current advances in technology etc when it comes to something thats very important and complicated I still take my car to a professional who works on cars on a daily basis and has more knowledge then I do..its a personal choice as to what one decides to become well versed on in life.

I own a lot of property and usually do not use an attorney but when the situation calls for it (like purchasing or selling a co-op in NY) I do not hesitate to get some EXPERT help. I know my limitations and do not pretend to know more than I do. In a recent confrontation with the IRS I did my research but still CONSULTED an expert and in the end in part due to the advice of this expert I prevailed.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that someone has more experience or knowledge that I do on a particular subject. Maybe some people here have had a negative experience when they sought legal advise or have heard horror stories..or perhaps PRIDE keeps them from seeking the advise of a specialist but I have had good results when I consult someone who has specialized knowledge of complex situations and problem and I always get a better end result...its the END RESULT that counts after all.

Thanks for your concern, estrch. You make some valid points and they are well taken. If only we had as much discussion on other open carry topics as we do on this one.

If and when the need arises for consultation with an attorney, I'm sure that LOCAL or one of the many concerned citizens that make up LOCAL will take that into consideration.

 

[estcrh]

???????? As I said wheels are in motion. Just because you may not be directly involved doesn't mean things aren't happening. If you understood legal matters as you say, you would concede that details of this nature should not be put on display for all to see. Rest assured, actions are being taken. This is not over, however matters like this need to be handled with a certain level of discretion and must be done PRECISELY the first time.

Since law enforcement officials undoubtedly are reading what we are posting here already it would be wise to let them know that whatever actions taken have been researched and will hold up to heavy scrutiny as they certainly are getting legal advise of their own as we speak...I do not think letting them know that they will be facing professionals and not amateurs is revealing a state secret..but we do agree on 1 thing...whatever actions are taken they must be done PRECISELY the first time.

 

[codename_47]

I cannot agree. It takes a lot of money to bring a lawsuit to court, and MOST people simply cannot afford to do so. It easy to say what you say until you are trying on the shoes yourself.
Just not true. I've got the shoes, and the T-SHIRT, I've given a few pairs to some friends as well. It isn't hard. People are just lazy and complacently ignorant.

 

[estcrh]

Well, I am sorry, I just don't have the $2,000 retainer laying around to pay the lawyer to start anything that I may or may not win. I'm glad you do.

If you spread the cost of a retainer between lets say 10 people than brings the price down considerably.

 

[georg jetson]

Well, I am sorry, I just don't have the $2,000 retainer laying around to pay the lawyer to start anything that I may or may not win. I'm glad you do.

I've been holding back... but... I think I'll go ahead and say it... READ and LEARN. The law is NOT rocket science. It just takes TIME... and a bit of backbone.

 

[NRAMARINE]

I've been holding back... but... I think I'll go ahead and say it... READ and LEARN. The law is NOT rocket science. It just takes TIME... and a bit of backbone.

That's true. My own father took on textron marine without a lawyer when they tried to throw him under the bus for their screw up. He's a machinist who spent weeks in the library, and he beat back their hi priced gubment lawyers.

 

[georg jetson]

Excuses???

Georg, That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard! Yeah, go ahead into a court room and represent yourself, be your own legal defense and go head to head with an experienced lawyer in a situation where your freedom is at stake...........that's makes a whole lot of sense! What is your point buddy, I don't get it? In some relatively simple matters you may want to even try and represent yourself, but I wouldn't even try it with simple matters. There are of lot of words and procedures that most people don't even have a glue as to what they mean. Yeah, go and study and learn in a couple of weeks or months. Oh yeah, that's gonna work real well.

If you don't get along with estcrh than that's fine, the internet is great for getting into fusses with people over just about nothin', but to tell someone to represent themselves in today's court room is not good legal advise any way you look at it!

First off, the point of the discussion about an attorney was in reference to developing a letter to send to Law Enforcement. The laws about open carrying are clear, so doing so would be a waste of money.

Second, you obviously have a layperson's view of the law. Those word's and procedures that people don't have a (glue?) clue about are called RULES of procedure and are found easily at various websites. There are State rules and then each jurisdiction MAY have LOCAL rules. You most certainly DO NOT wait until the last minute to learn the laws and procedures relative to your case. The citizen's preparation is LIFETIME. There ARE times when hiring an attorney or attorneys would be wise, but that does not mean you need them to wipe your butt every time the law intrudes into your life.

It's obvious your level of knowledge of the law is consistent with the typical citizen of today... abysmal So, why do YOU give LEGAL ADVICE like this... "but to tell someone to represent themselves in today's court room is not good legal advise any way you look at it."

ENOUGH with the "average people can't learn the law" mentality. As citizens of the United States, it is our DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY. Lose the attitude and start studying. I recommend starting with a good course outline on civil or criminal procedure to get the basics. You can always get list of the course books from Loyal Law School. It's JUST READING!!

 

[estcrh]

First off, the point of the discussion about an attorney was in reference to developing a letter to send to Law Enforcement. The laws about open carrying are clear, so doing so would be a waste of money.

Second, you obviously have a layperson's view of the law. Those word's and procedures that people don't have a (glue?) clue about are called RULES of procedure and are found easily at various websites. There are State rules and then each jurisdiction MAY have LOCAL rules. You most certainly DO NOT wait until the last minute to learn the laws and procedures relative to your case. The citizen's preparation is LIFETIME. There ARE times when hiring an attorney or attorneys would be wise, but that does not mean you need them to wipe your butt every time the law intrudes into your life.

It's obvious your level of knowledge of the law is consistent with the typical citizen of today... abysmal So, why do YOU give LEGAL ADVICE like this... "but to tell someone to represent themselves in today's court room is not good legal advise any way you look at it."

ENOUGH with the "average people can't learn the law" mentality. As citizens of the United States, it is our DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY. Lose the attitude and start studying. I recommend starting with a good course outline on civil or criminal procedure to get the basics. You can always get list of the course books from Loyal Law School. It's JUST READING!!

Yes...lets all go to school and become attorneys.( Loyal(Loyala?) Law School) ..it is not our DUTY to become attorneys George, thats just your particular obsession and interest and there is nothing wrong with anyone who does not think like you do ....and the problem its not about if open carry is legal or not...its about what can a law enforcement officer do when they are told about or see a person open carrying a fire arm in a legal manner. If the law was so clear on what an officer can and can not do when the are dealing with an open carrying situation then we would not even be having this little discussion right now.

Finding out exactly what measures are LEGAL and not LEGAL is a complicated issue and I can assure you the law enforcement community has attorneys checking any ruling and court case which backs up their interpretation of how they think things should be and ANYONE who wants to convince law enforcement agencies about ANYTHING needs to have an attorney behind them to be taken SERIOUSLY...I can not believe I am even having to discuss this with anyone...Anyone can come up with a story of an non attorney winning a case but in real life thats just not an every day occurrence.

 

[LA Confederate]

First of all, second of all, third of all, and most important of all, I would appeal to you to not read the rest of this paragraph georg, it may cause enlightenment! (Your ranting is simply annoying. You have no idea how much I know about law and how many court cases I've been involved in, but you have it all figured out. Like usual. You have no idea what I do for a living ..... really no idea, but you rant on like, and note I said like, a foolish person.)

I'm finish with this conversation regarding any further waste of bandwidth. We both probably have more important things to be doing. Let's leave it here with this, your right, I'm wrong. Sorry for my very confused belief and understanding that it is best for a person to NOT represent themselves in a court room today for most matters. Please excuse my ignorance with regard to your superior intelligence of legal matters. See you later buddy. Have a nice day!

Irregardless of what you, or anyone else for that matter, does for a living and how many court cases you have been involved in, you have completely missed the point that George was making. I suppose your defeatist attitude may be the cause. George has never said not to retain a lawyer once. He has said that it is your job to research and know the law for yourself, and to be aware of laws that impact you so you can defend yourself and prevent needing a lawyer in the first place. I know that there are a host of OSHA laws, Feuderal regulations, and state laws that impact my business every day. It's my responsibility as a businessman to make myself aware of those laws so that I do not break them and get myself in a pile of trouble and so that my company can remain in business and profitable. That, I think, is George's main point. Know the laws so you can ensure that you are operating within their boundaries.

 

[estcrh]

Irregardless of what you, or anyone else for that matter, does for a living and how many court cases you have been involved in, you have completely missed the point that George was making. I suppose your defeatist attitude may be the cause. George has never said not to retain a lawyer once. He has said that it is your job to research and know the law for yourself, and to be aware of laws that impact you so you can defend yourself and prevent needing a lawyer in the first place. I know that there are a host of OSHA laws, Feuderal regulations, and state laws that impact my business every day. It's my responsibility as a businessman to make myself aware of those laws so that I do not break them and get myself in a pile of trouble and so that my company can remain in business and profitable. That, I think, is George's main point. Know the laws so you can ensure that you are operating within their boundaries.

You really trying to explain peoples points for them dont you? Why not let George speak for himself.

 

[georg jetson]

Irregardless of what you, or anyone else for that matter, does for a living and how many court cases you have been involved in, you have completely missed the point that George was making. I suppose your defeatist attitude may be the cause. George has never said not to retain a lawyer once. He has said that it is your job to research and know the law for yourself, and to be aware of laws that impact you so you can defend yourself and prevent needing a lawyer in the first place. I know that there are a host of OSHA laws, Feuderal regulations, and state laws that impact my business every day. It's my responsibility as a businessman to make myself aware of those laws so that I do not break them and get myself in a pile of trouble and so that my company can remain in business and profitable. That, I think, is George's main point. Know the laws so you can ensure that you are operating within their boundaries.

Yes... that was part of my point. My main point is that it is through the courts that the people can enforce the Republic's rule of law on the public servants. People can't use what they know nothing about. The term "law" is an all encompassing term. What I mean when I encourage others to learn the law, is to learn HOW to use the courts to ENFORCE their rights. Even if an attorney becomes necessary at a certain stage, at least the person will know when to hire them and how to assist them. In addition, a citizenry equipped with a reasonable understanding of the law would help keep the legislatures in check by having an understanding about what it is government SHOULD be doing versus what they ARE doing.

I believe a major cause of the problems with our Republic is our ignorance of how to exercise our RIGHT to use the courts for redress. If ONLY attorney's know the law, then how do we know that what they are doing is lawful.

 

[estcrh]

Yes... that was part of my point. My main point is that it is through the courts that the people can enforce the Republic's rule of law on the public servants. People can't use what they know nothing about. The term "law" is an all encompassing term. What I mean when I encourage others to learn the law, is to learn HOW to use the courts to ENFORCE their rights. Even if an attorney becomes necessary at a certain stage, at least the person will know when to hire them and how to assist them. In addition, a citizenry equipped with a reasonable understanding of the law would help keep the legislatures in check by having an understanding about what it is government SHOULD be doing versus what they ARE doing.

I believe a major cause of the problems with our Republic is our ignorance of how to exercise our RIGHT to use the courts for redress. If ONLY attorney's know the law, then how do we know that what they are doing is lawful.

Unfortunately at this point despite many seemingly unlawful harassments of people who open carry no one has challenged the law enforcement community in La. legally with or without an attorney so they are free to do what they want to anyone they want at any time.

 

[georg jetson]

An example of why we each, individually, need to KNOW.

Unfortunately at this point despite many seemingly unlawful harassments of people who open carry no one has challenged the law enforcement community in La. legally with or without an attorney so they are free to do what they want to anyone they want at any time.

Has there been no success in civil court? Has there been no internal affairs investigations which resulted in disciplinary action? I don't know... Are you sure " no one has challenged the law enforcement community"? I'm not.

Regardless, we must be ready and willing to fight... each of us individually. You can’t depend on others to fight your battles, although what others do in court can affect us all. We can certainly work together to assist each other in our endeavors. Once we all get on the same page, we can return the chains where they belong… on our servants. If you CAN afford an attorney and prefer to remain mostly ignorant of the law then fine... at least you have made preparations... maybe you can afford an attorney and will use the opportunity to learn from him / her. Learn any way you can and be prepared any way you can.

As it stands now, no test cases are needed to find out if OC is legal, the law is clear. What NEEDS to happen is that each of us should understand what recourse is available relevant to our specific circumstances. Each case is different. A more severe case, such as being arrested, is always a possibility. Organizations like LOCAL are attempting to keep arrests or harassments due to ignorance by a LEO to a minimum. Where the arrest or harassment is intentional, we have no option. Have your lawsuit ready to file… that means NOW. Know how and where to file a complaint. We CAN discuss what is necessary to prepare the paperwork freely. We just can’t “do it” for each other. If you CAN'T afford an attorney then hit the books.

It’s wise to pick one’s battles. Let’s get prepared. Remember, an intruding law enforcement agency is not a phenomenon experienced ONLY by the ocer.

 

[estcrh]

Has there been no success in civil court? Has there been no internal affairs investigations which resulted in disciplinary action? I don't know... Are you sure " no one has challenged the law enforcement community"? I'm not.

Regardless, we must be ready and willing to fight... each of us individually. You can’t depend on others to fight your battles, although what others do in court can affect us all. We can certainly work together to assist each other in our endeavors. Once we all get on the same page, we can return the chains where they belong… on our servants. If you CAN afford an attorney and prefer to remain mostly ignorant of the law then fine... at least you have made preparations... maybe you can afford an attorney and will use the opportunity to learn from him / her. Learn any way you can and be prepared any way you can.

As it stands now, no test cases are needed to find out if OC is legal, the law is clear. What NEEDS to happen is that each of us should understand what recourse is available relevant to our specific circumstances. Each case is different. A more severe case, such as being arrested, is always a possibility. Organizations like LOCAL are attempting to keep arrests or harassments due to ignorance by a LEO to a minimum. Where the arrest or harassment is intentional, we have no option. Have your lawsuit ready to file… that means NOW. Know how and where to file a complaint. We CAN discuss what is necessary to prepare the paperwork freely. We just can’t “do it” for each other. If you CAN'T afford an attorney then hit the books.

It’s wise to pick one’s battles. Let’s get prepared. Remember, an intruding law enforcement agency is not a phenomenon experienced ONLY by the ocer.

So George, do you know what a La. law enforcement officer is and is not allowed to do when confronting a person who is open carrying a gun in a way thats allowed by current laws.

 

[georg jetson]

???

So George, do you know what a La. law enforcement officer is and is not allowed to do when confronting a person who is open carrying a gun in a way that allowed by current laws.

Of course, we all KNOW the law related to OCing... it would be unwise to OC without the knowledge.

 

[estcrh]

Of course, we all KNOW the law related to OCing... it would be unwise to OC without the knowledge.

I asked if you knew the laws and rulings that regulate what a law enforcement officer can and can not do when confronting with a person who is open carrying in public in a legal manner. I will take it that you do not know as your answer had nothing to do with my question.