Would you financially support the establishment of a Washington State group?

[Gray Peterson]

.....

You folks should talk with the CalGuns Foundation to see how they do it. They don't take salaries at all, yet they're scarily effective. By far, they are the most effective legal foundation there is. Their board of directors make up the executive staff, and they take no money, leaving it to attorneys to file lawsuits and file briefs. The same for Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

For lobbying purposes, you'd have to set up a 501(c)(4) as a sister to a 501(c)(3), if you even choose to form a 501(c)(3).

As for the downing on people making a paycheck off of an organization, the only way that should be supported is if only 1 person is making the paycheck, and their sole job is to lobby the Legislature and to make the decision to sue a city or governmental worker.

It's also a crap shoot in terms of finding people who are effective at lobbying. For example, the Oregon Firearms Federation (ran and operated by Kevin Starrett) is an effective "for-profit" that has actually accomplished many things in the last 16 years, including state preemption, repealing the 15 day waiting period for handgun purchases. OFEF is the "legal foundation" non-profit 501(c)(3)

Compare this to, say, RMGO (who's last accomplishment was helping spearhead concealed carry, but they've made no real forward progress in the last 7 years) and Wisconsin Gun Owners (who has not gotten any legislation passed at all, haven't filed any lawsuits on behalf of gun owners in Wisconsin), and so on.

GeorgiaCarry.org, after running a few years with the board of directors essentially running the lobbying operation, unpaid, decided to hire an executive director (CEO type) to do lobbying and day to day operations of GeorgiaCarry.org.


Again, it all depends on the person or persons running the group. Just because someone may or may not make their living running the group, doesn't mean they're automatically bad. It's the people and the principle, not just the principle.

 

[FMCDH]

Again, it all depends on the person or persons running the group. Just because someone may or may not make their living running the group, doesn't mean they're automatically bad. It's the people and the principle, not just the principle.

Gray, I agree, but I don't think such a paid position is needed at this juncture, and only serves to waste resources that could be put to better use.

From the way some people are talking about this, they would like to create some major lobbying firm from the get go with multiple paid positions, and I personally don't think its either required or advised to start with. Especially not with SAF and GOA being in the state already.

We need to start small and focused, and work our way from there.

That’s my .02

 

[Gray Peterson]

Gray, I agree, but I don't thing such a paid position is needed at this juncture, and only serves to waist resources that could be put to better use.

From the way some people are talking about this, they would like to create some major lobbying firm from the get go with multiple paid positions, and I personally don't think its either required or advised to start with. Especially not with SAF and GOA being in the state already.

We need to start small and focused, and work our way from there.

That’s my .02

GeorgiaCarry.org had three years without paid staff before they were hired Jerry Henry as executive director, which means they've built up enough base of donation funding on a year to year basis to make this happen.

-Gray

 

[killchain]

I voted no.

Once an "organization" takes control of a grassroots issue, it becomes bureaucratically choked to death.

I will, however, donate to causes that advance our rights (such as court cases and the like.)

Adding to my .02...

I am strictly adherent to the phrase, "Power to those who do not want it."

I don't trust anyone, regardless of position, who wants to be paid to be an activist. Because then they become a LOBBYIST.

The direction of this thread (paid staff?) has me disliking the idea even more.

 

[Gray Peterson]

Adding to my .02...

I am strictly adherent to the phrase, "Power to those who do not want it."

I don't trust anyone, regardless of position, who wants to be paid to be an activist. Because then they become a LOBBYIST.

The direction of this thread (paid staff?) has me disliking the idea even more.

Remember what I said about GeorgiaCarry.org: They went without paid staff for 3 or 4 years.

As long as the paid staffer (again, we're talking years) has the same values in terms of pushing for things that the organization does, and doesn't "sell out" to perpetuate itself, I don't see the problem as long as the players on the board of directors and who is hired is well-known, and can show some form of forward progress in the Legislature. People can choose to support it or not with donations. If they're ineffective, their money dries up, but that applies whether or not paid staff exists.

This isn't a matter of being paid to be an activist, it's a matter of someone being able to 100 percent focus on the task at hand rather than being pulled apart by real life needs such as keeping a roof over their head.

When I did what I did here in Washington, I was able to do it for nearly 2 years, and then real life caught up with me because I had to pay bills and keep a roof over my head, significantly reducing my role on the local open carry scene here. Would it have been different if I was part of an organized grassroots group as a paid staffer? Probably because I could have focused on the job at hand for years and did more, but we'll never know. I have a good career at my job, which pays me quite well, and I wouldn't give it up for the vow of poverty that doing unpaid activist lobbying can do. I do what I can with the time I have.

I realize that this group may be a dirty word around here, but SAF wouldn't be as effective as they are without paid staff. Same with the Citizens Committee. SAF fought for some of the best legal victories on guns that we have. Not bad for a paid staff org.....just sayin.

 

[Freedom First]

Nope.

The more we organize, the more we will become like those that many of us distrust.

Neighbor meeting neighbor is very effective and also very hard to track or undermine. Our representatives do not look favorably on the push to restore the Rights we as Americans and Citizens of Washington State have neglected for so long and that fact needs to be acknowledged.

This means to me that we must remain local and connected to the Rights, principles and firearms that will protect us and our families.

As a homeschooler, there are organizations that stand ready to defend a family from the overreaching hand of the education machine. This they do for a living. If that service was provided for the OC movement, statewide or nationally, and for profit, I would support that organization with my money. To receive excellent services, one generally has to pay for them.

We just need a meeting place online to establish local connections and share infromation and experience. Opencarry.org provides that resource and I am grateful.

 

[1245A Defender]

well,,,

this poll was supposed to close on 1-29-2011.
it has already dropped off the stickies page.
i have spent an hour looking for it,
i have some things to say!
WCI rocks!!!!
washington deserves an organization that can do for us what WCI does for them!
I will write more soon, got some studying to do first.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

Wisconsin Carry, Inc. awarded $7,500 judgment against City of Brookfield/Police

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...00-judgment-against-City-of-Brookfield-Police

 

[oldkim]

Put your money where you mouth is...

Money talks BS walks....

United We Stand, Divided We Fall....

Strength in numbers....

Something... for nothing...


First, let me apologize for not reading all of this thread but I got the gist of where people are going....

People want something for nothing... no funding, no expended energy, no work but they want it all. It's like the gal I met that was on medicare (young healthy not working mother of 3 - her useless boyfriend was involved in a single car verses tree... she wanted the best money can buy - of course she wanted it on the states tab).

I've said this and I'll say it again. If you value your rights - you got to stand up and put some energy, money or at least support someone that will.

The energy is here! There are lots of people wanting to put something together - you are either there to stand up and help do it or support it. Otherwise you're just a bag of smelly gas. A waste of time.

It's time to put your money (time/energy) up or don't complain about losing your rights.

I'm a life member and proud of it. It doesn't matter who you support but support someone or something! It's not time to talk.... it's time to put up and prove it.

 

[amlevin]

Sorry oldkim

But it is apparent that the "members" of this Forum don't want to form a Wisconsin styled organization.

Most would like to keep it "informal". No dues, no meetings other than Coffee Meet and Greets, and one or two spokespersons that operate on their own.

To get a Wisconsin styled group will require a different level of commitment and yes, some money. That doesn't mean it requires "High Paid Executives".

 

[oldkim]

It's apparent as all heck...

It's a sorry state to say but yes - you are correct. There are many here that will quickly complain but not many that will stand up and say Yes - I'll stand by you.

It's a sorry statement but the more I see on the gun forums... there are a lot of "PC" folks. Don't want to "dirty" their hands and do a honest days work.

It may be enough to get a core of folks and go from there. Sometimes the "masses" don't get it or muddle the waters so much to get any clear picture of what the "big picture" is....

 

[FMCDH]

But it is apparent that the "members" of this Forum don't want to form a Wisconsin styled organization.

Most would like to keep it "informal". No dues, no meetings other than Coffee Meet and Greets, and one or two spokespersons that operate on their own.

To get a Wisconsin styled group will require a different level of commitment and yes, some money. That doesn't mean it requires "High Paid Executives".

Plainly put, its because Washington is not in the same situation at Wisconsin. One size does not fit all, and we have the benefit of some already very dedicated organizations in this state that are worthy of support.

 

[protias]

Plainly put, its because Washington is not in the same situation at Wisconsin. One size does not fit all, and we have the benefit of some already very dedicated organizations in this state that are worthy of support.

WI only has one true organization, the other five have said for years, "Donate to us and we'll work to get CCW in WI." Also, WCI is all volunteer work. I can say that I greatly appreciate their work and I appreciate everyone who fights for the return of our rights.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

WI only has one true organization, the other five have said for years, "Donate to us and we'll work to get CCW in WI." Also, WCI is all volunteer work. I can say that I greatly appreciate their work and I appreciate everyone who fights for the return of our rights.

+1!

WCI has a board of directors and NO ONE is paid. The members of WCI do most of the grass root work with the boards support.

This does not mean the directors don't do anything, it's just that it is a big job and there is more impact if people see hundreds and thousands of workers instead of just one or two.

The money is used to support the lawsuits filed against the states and to create fliers and such.

 

[amzbrady]

I'm not gonna go back and figure out if I agree with you about that. If the argument is worth making, fine. Just make sure it is, and remember that non-OCers visit this forum as well.

Hope you never on a jury or a judge. I would think you would want to go back and read the whole thread before you speak out. Make an informed descision before picking one person to comment on. Contribute something usefull to the thread. Remember that non-OCers visit this forum as well...

I think it is unfair to say that about the NRA but you will seldom go wrong by supporting local groups.

Someone had mentioned here before that the NRA was against Openly Carrying firearms??? It seems to me that they have lost sight of what they origanally stood for and have become a large business, and it is about money now.

Gray, I agree, but I don't think such a paid position is needed at this juncture, and only serves to waist resources that could be put to better use.

From the way some people are talking about this, they would like to create some major lobbying firm from the get go with multiple paid positions, and I personally don't think its either required or advised to start with. Especially not with SAF and GOA being in the state already.

We need to start small and focused, and work our way from there.

That’s my .02

+1
A corporation needs a president, vise president, secratary, and for some reason a Treasurer.
I think it's great what OCDO has accomplished as a non-Incorporated group. I love being able to log on and debate with a public group of people with the same interest, and sometimes different opinions than I. I also love not having to worry about re-subscribing to do so.

 

[Freedom First]

Just askin'

I have some questions as someone fairly new to OC. I have expressed my opinion earlier but perhaps I am ignorant of some needs and need some schoolin'.

What exactly is not working in the Washington State OC "movement"?

What would some form of organization do for us that isn't being done yet by concerned and involved OCers?

What would the goals be?

 

[Stretch]

Someone would have to clearly define a Washington Carry type of group. Granted, our rights are pretty clear and defined. I tend to believe that a group in Washington would collect funds/fees from membership to protect them in the event of false arrest/charges, similar to what happened in Bellingham, or what is currently happening in Virginia or Wisconsin. A group like that may help eliminate some of the immediate need for cash from the victim to acquire legal representation.

I also don't see the group as making statements "on behalf of people" or trying to do political persuasion. Maybe down the road, and only if it were needed. There are a lot of really well spoken people in Wa OCDO that have done a stellar job without a "WA CARRY" group. Again, I see it as a means to assist members in times of need.

 

[amlevin]

I have some questions as someone fairly new to OC. I have expressed my opinion earlier but perhaps I am ignorant of some needs and need some schoolin'.

What exactly is not working in the Washington State OC "movement"?

What would some form of organization do for us that isn't being done yet by concerned and involved OCers?

What would the goals be?

Is the current "Non Organization" able to provide you with a phone number to call if you are arrested and booked on a charge of "violation of RCW 9.41.270"? Is there a "fund" to assist with your defense? Is there a group of lawyers pre-identified as knowledgeable in the field of the firearms rights of the State's Citizens?

So far it is "hit and miss". An active organization would provide the means to collect funds and pay expenses incurred on a member's behalf by parties such as Olypendrew. If I recall correctly, he has expenses pending and there is no easy way to collect funds IN ADVANCE of the actual expenditure.

Those are only a couple of things that could work better than under the current "informal" approach.

Let's face it, there won't be a formal organization until your last question is answered. So far there has been no definitive answer as to what the group's goals would be.

 

[FMCDH]

Is the current "Non Organization" able to provide you with a phone number to call if you are arrested and booked on a charge of "violation of RCW 9.41.270"? Is there a "fund" to assist with your defense? Is there a group of lawyers pre-identified as knowledgeable in the field of the firearms rights of the State's Citizens?

So far it is "hit and miss". An active organization would provide the means to collect funds and pay expenses incurred on a member's behalf by parties such as Olypendrew. If I recall correctly, he has expenses pending and there is no easy way to collect funds IN ADVANCE of the actual expenditure.

Those are only a couple of things that could work better than under the current "informal" approach.

Let's face it, there won't be a formal organization until your last question is answered. So far there has been no definitive answer as to what the group's goals would be.

In answer to your first & third question, yes.
SAF Attorney Referral Service: 1-800-426-4302
http://www.saf.org/default.asp?p=mission

And that's just the one I know about, I am sure there are others I don't hosted by the NRA or GOA.

In answer to your second question, no.
Which is why I support such a not for profit, volunteer only organization to collect those dues and make those decisions about which cases will be assisted in.

Anything else the group needs to get involved in can be decided later when other existing "holes" in need for the state are identified, and to what degree.

Remember folks, its not as if OCDO members are out there alone trying to change civil rights issues for the better. We have a lot of respectable organizations in the state already. They may not go out of their way to promote OC specifically, but few condemn it, and most know that OC being an option is a level step between CC and ever nasty and irrational "printing" or "flashing" laws.

To borrow a horrible cliche...
To many want to jump in the deep pool and play with the big boys before they have grown up, or even learned to swim.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Olypendrew has said he would defend against criminal charges.

We have an organization already, it's the folks on the forum here. You post and people rally around you. I think this is the most effective and scares the "authorities" more than a "corporation". It also keeps the spirit of "freedom" and liberty in tact, when you can have people with all kinds of backgrounds, and walks of life, stand up for a cause they believe in.

I do think it would be a good idea though to network more, I have a few contacts on Blackberry messenger and in my contact list to phone when the SHTF.