Holy ****!

[JohnGalt]

imported post

zekester wrote:

I know this is late into this coversation....but if you have not read the 10th district court opinion along with the precendent of the Supreme Court....It is time to copy and take this with you.

Zekester - the case you mentioned is the St. John case from New Mexico. You can read my analysis of the case and its possible application with respect to Alabama actions in this thread: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum59/44464-3.html


My post is about 3/4 of the way down.

 

[zekester]

imported post

Thank you.....I now trully understand.....the in's and outs of of the District Courts in which I was not aware of.

I will be sure to include "persuasive" to the argument.

Thanks again.

Z

 

[Cypher]

imported post

DJDD wrote:

eye95 wrote:

I used to use the Central Alabama Gun Club west of Montgomery. It's about 30 min for me, so an hour for you. It's like $120 a year (maybe more) for an outdoor range, not that well kept. Lately, I have been buying daily passes at a park near Auburn, but that's even farther.

I read the other thread. Some people had constructive things to say. Some were just jerks. I am sorry you were treated like that. We all have ideas how to do some things better. We get better results when we share those in a respectful way.

So, I hereby order you to find something I did wrong at the mall, and tell me what that is.

On edit: A post intervened so it might not be clear that this was a reply to DJDD.

This is why I use my property. Nothing close is decent and nothing decent is close.



As for your mall escapade I can only find one thing wrong.......



You went to the mall.Seriously, mallsare so 1985. :celebrate

What's wrong with '85???

Things were cooler than they are now. Cool toons, cool tunes, & you could still hitch a lift on a freight to cross town without getting in trouble.


BTW, anyone know where I could get a jean jacket or parachute pants?

 

[merc460]

Wow!

I heard about this thread from one of your other posts, so I had to read it. All I can say is WOW!! I certainly am not looking forward to any encounter such as this, and hope it never happens. From what I have read you handled very well, much better than I could. (I'm still learning all the laws)

He then asked the fateful question: "Why are you carrying that?" gesturing to my pistol.
I had prepared for this moment, so I knew to appear to cooperate, while not really saying anything. So, I replied, "It's legal, isn't it?"

See this is what would get me, I have always said to myself my answer would be "I watch the news and I feel safer if I do." There is a lot of crime here near Charlotte, the news is full of shooting and armed robbery. Not so bad here, but it is moving this way slowly.
Not sure if that answer is a wise one though?

Anyways, I hope I have the composure you kept if it ever happens to me and Thank You for sharing this.

 

[eye95]

Thanks for the kind words.

And, thanks for resurrecting my favorite thread.

 

[Motofixxer]

As previously stated, I would not have asked questions of the officer like "It's legal isn't it?" Or stated that I would comply with him removing my sidearm. If I am in the situation I plan to keep it simple. Say minimal, don't answer questions. And don't add to their authority opinion by saying I don't consent but I won't resist. I believe those kinds of questions and statements continue to invoke their feeling of superiority over us "normal people". Best thing to do is hold your ground, and make confident statements with a legal basis.
Otherwise I think it was handled pretty well. It's always difficult to have the confidence when we are confronted by someone who can legally rob our property, assault us, and forcibly detain us all in the name of public safety.

 

[eye95]

Well, the only reason I'd handle it differently now is that what I chose to do worked. Montgomery has changed its policy on OC. I don't think the confrontational approach would've worked without an arrest and a lawsuit.

Not everything has to be a battle.

 

[MKEgal]

If an officer stops you, runs your s/n, holds you for 1-2 hours, checks you for warrants, he still would have no idea if you were about to go on a shooting spree.

Actually, having that humiliation & frustration might increase the chance of doing something irrational.

 

[Motofixxer]

It's a fine line what to do and when. Education is the best obviously, but what means to get there? If you question their authority and stand your ground on your rights. They will either be educated if they honestly don't know. Or they will start questioning, become more accepting and understanding. Or they will not push so hard and walk away to not have to deal with it. Regardless, we have rights that we can't allow to be trampled.
I have personally been researching a lot of legal stuff recently regarding our sovereignty as human beings. In some of that research I have debated with a peace officer that I know. This officer has mentioned that maybe they need a career change if they start finding out the truth in that info. I haven't even shared everything so as not to create a larger conscience conflict in their duties. But this is one of the good officer's, and may not be a reflection of LEO's in general.

 

[eye95]

My approach did question unlawful authority. It just did do non-confrontationally. If a LEA will not change, confrontation is the way to go. However, you can't know if the LEA will change until after that first encounter with a LEO.

Some folks, however, need to feel that they "win" that encounter. I'd rather the whole OC movement benefit from the positive outcome that came from my willingness to delay gratification for a few weeks.

 

[ExLipscombChief]

In response to Thundar, Alabama only requires one person in a phone conversation to know it is being recorded. Alabama is alo an un-licensed open carry state. The problem is we have a lot of educated and uneducated idiots working for the various law enforcement departments. Their entire agenda is to harass everyone they can because they think it's funny. I was in LE for over 10 years. My last 3 years as a Chief. My men knew, without a doubt, if they pulled a stunt like this on someone CC'ing with a permit or someone OC'ing , they would be getting their meals from a soup kitchen and looking/hoping they get a weekly unemployment check. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge but stupid is for life.

Mike

Deo Vindice

 

[eye95]

Got some unexpected feedback tonight. The subject of my stop came up, and the person I was with said she had mentioned it to an MPD officer she knew. The officer said that she had heard of the stop and that "we now know the rules."

Cool. Despite reports from others and the email I received from the department, I never really was confident that my stop had made a difference. I am beginning to think that it had some effect, just not sure if it was enough.

I guess I just need to hear more stories about OC encounters with MPD officers.

 

[Brimstone Baritone]

Awesome!

I wish we could get a hold of a copy of their policy, but the fact that they have one and it is OC friendly (or at least tolerant) is wonderful.

 

[Deleted_User]

I just happened upon this thread browsing and I must say this helps me as well. I've only been OC for about a month or so and I got a tad bit of confidence from this as well. I think it was handled beautifully. Now if WA State only handles things this "well." Tacoma Mall (Site of a shooting in the past) probably wouldn't be so receiving, being as they have a no carry sign, though only after you've entered the mall.

 

[eye95]

Bump for dhull520.

 

[ixtow]

I'd rather the whole OC movement benefit from the positive outcome that came from my willingness to delay gratification for a few weeks.

I'm not sure that's accurate.

The citizen is supposed to 'win' but not having to lose in the first place. I still cannot fathom how LEOs like that aren't hanged for Treason, but I'm a 'weirdo' who actually expects the same law to apply to them as does to me...

It's not a game, and I think far fewer people actually feel it is a contest than are labeled so. LEOs need to be put in their place. Had I my own way, violently, slowly, and fatally so, as they do unto us and our Constitution without care or consequence.

I know the difference between enforcing my opinion, as seen above, and what is acceptable. They don't. Yet the harsh words fall upon those of us who would point that out, instead of the aggressors......

 

[Sonora Rebel]

NavyLT wrote:
I am not so sure. The corporal continued to explain why they had to do what they did as he escorted me to my car.Anyway, in my effort to document the incident as the first step in encouraging MPD to develop a lawful policy and train its officers to follow it, I just tried to obtain the police report. The MPD told me that, unless I was arrested, which I was not, there would be no police report at all. O-o-o-o-ka-a-a-y. A LAC is detained for two hours, and no report is made of it????So, what documentation of my ordeal is there? I was sent to the communications department, a separate entity, where I could obtain a transcription of the 911 call and all of the radio traffic, which would indicate when the detention began, when it ended, and the disposition that meant no report would be filed.

The man there was extremely helpful. He took down the information and indicated that sometime today, tomorrow at the latest, I'd have an electronic copy either emailed to me or available for pickup on a CD. Great.

Just as I am about to turn into my neighborhood, a sergeant at the communications department calls me and says that he cannot fulfill my request. I have to go to the city attorney's office and fill out some paperwork.

*sigh* I have called them in the vain hope of not making another wasted trip. Had to leave a message.

I really DON'T want to sue. However, I am starting to get frustrated.

Anyway, I'll keep you all posted.

Escorted why? Were you trespassed? A two hour 'detention' (not free to go) is a technical arrest. Abuse of authority under color of law. OC is legit in AL... Permit required to carry in POV or Concealed. (I suppose it's considered concealed when doing so...?) AL recognizes the right to bear arms. Why is stuff like this still happening at all? Recommend obtaining legal council and SUE them! That's the only thing these LEA's (via Mayor & City Council) understand. No... they didn't 'have to' do what they did at all. 911 operators should also be aware of LAC's and not respond to hysterics. mall not posted... I don't care what's on their 'policy card'. They should either post it or shut up. I don't care about any 'movement'... RKBA is a right. There should be no self-conscious act of doing so. "Why are you carrying that?" type questions are indicative of professional ignorance and incompetance. 'Same reason cops do.. self defense. Under the same Constitutional right. LEO's are not soldiers... altho many may think they are. This sort of harrassment should not be happening.

 

[AZkopper]

Escorted why? Were you trespassed? A two hour 'detention' (not free to go) is a technical arrest. Abuse of authority under color of law. OC is legit in AL... Permit required to carry in POV or Concealed. (I suppose it's considered concealed when doing so...?) AL recognizes the right to bear arms. Why is stuff like this still happening at all? Recommend obtaining legal council and SUE them! That's the only thing these LEA's (via Mayor & City Council) understand. No... they didn't 'have to' do what they did at all. 911 operators should also be aware of LAC's and not respond to hysterics. mall not posted... I don't care what's on their 'policy card'. They should eiother post it or shut up. I don't care about any 'movement'... RKBA is a right. There should be no self-conscious act of doing so. "Why are you carrying that?" type questions are indicative of professional ignorance and incompetance. 'Same reason cops do.. self defense. Under the same Constitutional right. LEO's are not soldiers... altho many may think they are. This sort of harrassment should not be happening.

+1.
Since OC is Constitutionally legal (and you had your CWP to boot), the mall was not posted, and you were not contacted by mall security, you were doing nothing wrong. Had the mall been posted, or security told you to leave the weapon outside, and you didn't comply, you'd have a trespassing--and a legal detention thereof.

Now, you consented to going to the office. But (if memory serves from several pages back), you didn't consent to the seizing of your weapon, you didn't consent to the taking of your ID, and you were not free to leave, even though there was no law broken and no reasonable suspicion that a law was being broken.

The New Mexico case shows you could be the winner of $23,000!

 

[eye95]

I am fully aware of how my rights were violated. I also know that I have a good lawsuit were I to pursue it. However, I have been working with the deputy chief and the city attorney. I'd rather we fix things than I get a payday. And the city is fixing things. My more recent encounter was much less egregious, but the deputy chief was still responsive. So my approach is working. I won't be suing.

On being escorted out: I was given the option of leaving my gun in my car and returning. The officer escorted me out because the mall would not let me possess my gun on their premises. When the officer handed me my gun at my car, I checked it, loaded it, racked it, put the safety on, and holstered it. I shook the officers hand, got in my car, and left. I made it clear that I would not be shopping at the mall as long as they had a policy against firearms.

 

[Kirbinator]

Yes, but he illegally seized your firearm during your detainment and returned it when you reached your vehicle. He didn't have a right to take it in the first place and should have immediately returned it, not enforced the property owner's will on a public paycheck.