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Holy ****!

49er

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Messages
156
Location
Central Alabama
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I commend you for your courage to defend our constitutions from "all enemies, foreign and domestic".It is not necessarytogo half-way around the world andwear auniform to do that, as you have shown. At times, it is necessary at home.

If you choose to answer the question about how officers should respond to an informant's report of a man with a gun, keep in mind this citation from the case you referred to (St. John v Alamogordo):



[align=left]... Holding that the search violated Ubiles' Fourth Amendment rights, the court noted that the situation was no different than if the informant had told officers "that Ubiles possessed a wallet . . . and the authorities had stopped him for that reason."
Id.[/align]


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[align=left]Note:[/align]
[align=left]Ithink youwould be wisenot advertise your intentions to file ornot to file suit against those who were involved in this incident. Holding those who were involved personally responsible for their illegal actions in court, or letting them think you might do so,will gettheir attentionmore effectively than any of the other things you have done so far.[/align]

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Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
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smn quoted:
And Rehnquist concluded the opinion with the following:
The Fourth Amendment test for a valid consent to search is that the consent be voluntary, and "[v]oluntariness is a question of fact to be determined from all the circumstances," id., at 248-249.

Just to get a well-rounded perspective of search requests, here is something very interesting from Justice Marshall's dissent in Schneckloth vs Bustamonte:

I must conclude, with some reluctance, that, when the Court speaks of practicality, what it really is talking of is the continued ability of the police to capitalize on the ignorance of citizens so as to accomplish by subterfuge what they could not achieve by relying only on the knowing relinquishment of constitutional rights. 412 US 288 (this is apage number; just go to the link, and scroll down the page until you see that page number)

Just think that over for a few moments.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/412/218/case.html#243
 

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
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cowboy67 wrote:
This wasn't the guy was it? MPD officer arrested for theft... http://www.wtvm.com/global/story.asp?s=12392012



If so, one less bad guy off the streets.
Nope, not him. The officer I dealt with was professional and courteous. Absent proper training by the MPD, it is entirely possible to be professional, courteous, and wrong. I cannot imaging the officer I dealt with committing crimes.
 

kwikrnu

Banned
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May 14, 2008
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Brentwood, Tennessee
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What about this from Justice White in his disentof Terry v Ohio?

"To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment."
here
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
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49er,

I kept repeating to city officials that I did not intend to sue. While it was (and still is) true, that statement reminded them constantly that I could. They couldn't help but know they'd lose. I firmly believe that my making that statement was a big motivator for them to develop the policy and implement training.

I am still collecting the documentation from the city. While I currently still do not intend to sue (because the city is being so responsive), the option remains open should they choose to back-pedal or should a similar incident happen again.

I really don't think I ever will have to. I hope I won't. My goal was to change the way MPD handled OC. My method is achieving that goal. I'll choose effectiveness over confrontation every day.
 

SlackwareRobert

Regular Member
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Jun 10, 2008
Messages
1,338
Location
Alabama, ,
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cowboy67 wrote:
This wasn't the guy was it? MPD officer arrested for theft... http://www.wtvm.com/global/story.asp?s=12392012



If so, one less bad guy off the streets.
Amazingly I haven't heard one "PROFILING" scream from the illegals yet.:what:
Asking for their 'papers' is not the same as taking their money I guess.
Just one more BAD APPLE giving OC a bad name.:banghead::banghead:
One more reason not to let them disarm you till after you verify they can't harm you.
i.e. NEVER!!

Hopefully they charge him with the gun crimes like they shaft the border patrol men.
In this case it is warranted tho so probably won't happen.
With luck he will get the 'spanking' judge.
 

bomber

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Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
499
Location
, ,
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kwikrnu wrote:
1911's are threatening, next time try someing smaller or just conceal. It seems as if you are looking for a confrontation.

i dont think people generally get your sense of humor on stuff like this. i got it, and i laughed, but i've noticed that when you make these jokes people tend to miss the humor and get really defensive.
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
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Location
Richmond, VA
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eye95 wrote:
I repeatedly asked the "Am I free to go?" question. He repeatedly answered no. I followed up with "Am I being detained?" He answered yes each time. I don't think there was any doubt throughout this event that I was being held against my will. When he took my handgun, I specifically said that I did not consent to the seizure, but that I would not resist. He took it. I did not give it to him.

I don't think any lawyer, judge, or jury would think I consented to the seizure of me or my property.

Considering that I have received an apology and that the city has changed its policy as a direct result of my detention, I suspect that the city knew that I had not consented and that, therefore, my rights were unquestionably violated.
Eye,

I think you handled it great. No complaints on your demeanor. I would have been a bit hesitant as well to go to a backroom, away from the public eye. A lot can be insinuated, or fabricated in a little back room. The officer could have been lying, with no recourse, that there was a camera in the interview room too.



Now, knowing that the situation was not likely to come up, or be appropriately responded to without you walking into the mall lawfully minding your own business, would it be acceptable to say that attempting to correct this known issue without the confrontation necessary to limelight it, would be less likely to succeed?

Thanks Eye!
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
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Thanks for the kind words!

I don't know that I'd use the word "confrontation," but had the situation not happened, the Montgomery would not now be changing its policy or its training.

I don't know that your headed there, but in case you are, or in case someone is hoping you are: I don't think that setting up such a situation in order to bring about change is wise.

I am all for exercising OC and, when LEOs do something wrong, setting about fixing the situation, using court action only if the LEA refuses to recognize its wrongdoing or refuses to correct it.

We want OC to be a normal law-abiding activity. If we are prompting confrontations with LEOs, even if we are 100% in the right, we give the impression of spoiling for a fight, which, while not illegal, can give that appearance to those on the fence.

We are never going to convince the antis. We should be trying to convince the fence-sitters. We do that by not being rash.
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
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Messages
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Richmond, VA
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eye95 wrote:
Thanks for the kind words!

I don't know that I'd use the word "confrontation," but had the situation not happened, the Montgomery would not now be changing its policy or its training.

I don't know that your headed there, but in case you are, or in case someone is hoping you are: I don't think that setting up such a situation in order to bring about change is wise.

I am all for exercising OC and, when LEOs do something wrong, setting about fixing the situation, using court action only if the LEA refuses to recognize its wrongdoing or refuses to correct it....
Sorry for truncating. Your post is meaningful. Also, no problem on the compliment, you deserve it after dealing with that situation in the manner you described. I, likewise, would have dropped an entire freight train of expletives on the way home. I also would have been uncomfortable with the officer escorting me out to my car, and potentially passing my make, model, and plate to his buddies. I'm assuming this is why excessive attention was applied to driving home. I could certainly understand why.

That's all in hindsight though.

The point I am trying to bring up is that although I agree that we should follow a model of change which is both peaceful, and productive, the truth of the matter is, that some solutions can never be reached until the problem has been exposed.

Unfortunately, this is brought about at times, by blatant violation of our civil rights.

It is not until they see the wrong they are doing, that they acknowledge its existence. Sometime, they have to be forced into acknowledgment, after the fact.

So go the Kimberguys, and St. Johns of the world.

These, like it or not, were the major players that impacted the legal scope of things, and provide reference for run-ins like your own.

There is nothing wrong with being a law abiding gun owner, and these types of incidents prove it.

See what I'm saying?
 

codename_47

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Jun 16, 2008
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I told him that I did not consent to his taking it, but that I would not resist if he chose to seize it. I pointed to the buckle and move my hands up and out of the way. He unfastened my belt and removed it and the gun.

I would not have said that.

I don't understand why people say stuff like this or ask "am I legally required to show you my ID" or such nonsense. Just tell them to keep their hands to themselves.
 

eye95

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I don't recommend talking like that in a situation where you are not the one with the immediate power. I don't recommend standing in a crosswalk in the path of a speeding car, either. In both cases, you are in the right.
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
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kwikrnu wrote:
What about this from Justice White in his disentof Terry v Ohio?

"To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment."
here
I fell out of my chair when I read that a few years ago.

One thing it highlights is that, even though cops have been doing it for a long time, it was never held constitutional previously. Since police only came along in the 1830's, some forty years after the Bill of Rights, such police detentions could not have been contemplated by the common law nor the Bill of Rights.

Thus, the court basically made legal what the cops had been doing illegally. "Well, if the police can't follow the law, just change the law to accommodate what they been doing."

(Barf)
 

RussP

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Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
393
Location
Central Virginia
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eye95 wrote:
Thanks for the kind words!

I don't know that I'd use the word "confrontation," but had the situation not happened, the Montgomery would not now be changing its policy or its training.

I don't know that your headed there, but in case you are, or in case someone is hoping you are: I don't think that setting up such a situation in order to bring about change is wise.

I am all for exercising OC and, when LEOs do something wrong, setting about fixing the situation, using court action only if the LEA refuses to recognize its wrongdoing or refuses to correct it.

We want OC to be a normal law-abiding activity. If we are prompting confrontations with LEOs, even if we are 100% in the right, we give the impression of spoiling for a fight, which, while not illegal, can give that appearance to those on the fence.

We are never going to convince the antis. We should be trying to convince the fence-sitters. We do that by not being rash.
You handled the situation well, sir, setting a fine example of how resolution can be achieved.
 

Mississippi Man

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May 1, 2010
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Brandon, Mississippi, USA
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What a great story to share with the rest of us. I am certain that I would have ran into the same circumstances because I also look for the signs by the entrance doors to keep from encountering issues with law enforcement, but I don't know if I would have handled it as well as you did. I have to admit, I was so intrigued by the story that I read 5 pages of responses also! haha
 

eye95

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The advantage of posting our experiences is that we can learn from each other's actions, successful and unsuccessful.

Someone once told me that there are three ways to learn. First, you can listen as others relate their experiences and learn from their mistakes. Second, you can watch as others make mistakes and learn from their mistakes. Third, you can piss on the electric fence yourself.
 

RussP

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Sep 2, 2006
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393
Location
Central Virginia
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eye95 wrote:
The advantage of posting our experiences is that we can learn from each other's actions, successful and unsuccessful.

Someone once told me that there are three ways to learn. First, you can listen as others relate their experiences and learn from their mistakes. Second, you can watch as others make mistakes and learn from their mistakes. Third, you can piss on the electric fence yourself.
That's very true, eye95.
 

zekester

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Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
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Uvalde, Texas
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I know this is late into this coversation....but if you have not read the 10th district court opinion along with the precendent of the Supreme Court....It is time to copy and take this with you.

Relying on well-defined Supreme Court precedent, the Tenth Circuit and its sister courts
have consistently held that officers may not seize or search an individual without a specific,
legitimate reason. See Terry, 392 U.S. at 21; Fuerschbach,439 F.3d at 1204-6 (holding that a
seizure without a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity "would violate the most minimal
Fourth Amendment standard"); Jones v. Hunt, 410 F.3d at 1228 ("Where no legitimate basis
exists for detaining [an individual], a seizure is plainly unreasonable."); Duran, 904 F.2d at 1378
("If there is one irreducible minimum in our Fourth Amendment jurisprudence, it is that a police
officer may not detain an individual simply on the basis of suspicion in the air. No matter how
peculiar, abrasive, unruly or distasteful a person's conduct may be, it cannot justify a police stop
unless it suggests that some specific crime has been, or is about to be, committed or that there is
an imminent danger to persons or property
."); see also Lawrence Rosenthal, Second Amendment
Plumbing after Heller: Standards of Scrutiny, Incorporation, Well-Regulated Militias, and
Criminal Street Gangs, 41 Urb. Law. 1, 37 (2009) (“When applicable law does not ban carrying a
firearm, however, the Fourth Amendment does not permit a stop-and-frisk regardless of any
indication that a suspect is armed or potentially dangerous because there is no indication that the
suspect is violating the law
.”). For example, in Sorrel v. McGuigan, 38 Fed.Appx. 970, 973 (4th
Cir. 2002) (unpublished) the Fourth Circuit denied qualified immunity to an officer who seized
an individual for lawfully carrying weapon
. Noting that a state statute made the plaintiff's
Case 6:08-cv-00994-BB-LAM Document 48 Filed 09/08/2009 Page 12 of 16
13
concealed carrying of the weapon legal, the court found that, though "[q]ualified immunity
protects law enforcement officers from bad guesses in gray areas," the fact that the plaintiff's
actions were clearly permissible under the statute meant that the officer "was not in a gray area
."
Id. at 974.
The applicable law was equally clear in this case. Nothing in New Mexico law prohibited
Mr. St. John from openly carrying a firearm in the Theater. See N.M. Stat. § 30-7 et seq.
Because both New Mexico law and the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unjustified seizure
were clearly established, and a reasonable officer is presumed to know clearly established law,
see, e.g., Harlow, 457 U.S. at 818-9, qualified immunity does not protect Defendants.
Accordingly, Mr. St. John's motion for summary judgment is granted with regard to his Fourth
Amendment and New Mexico constitutional claims. Defendants' motion for summary judgment
is denied with regard to the same and with regard to qualified immunity.

I AM NOT A LAWYER...AND THIS IS THE " DECISION" OF THE 10TH DISTRICT COURT, BUT BASED ON SUPREMEME COURT PRECEDENT, IT SHOULD HOLD UP UNDER ANY COURT...
 
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