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Disarmed by VA Beach police in front of my own house on 04-26-2011

grylnsmn

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Gry,

You are missing my entire point, I disagree with YOUR PERSONAL BELIEF he was not dangerous (perspective of the first officer). If the OP was the actual suspect (very easily could have been) would you change your mind then? What is your personal definition of dangerous?

I never said just because he was armed made him dangerous, I said that since he is armed and given the type of crime (threatening/brandishing) makes him dangerous. (remember my comment on jaywalkin). If your theory was correct then Terry v Ohio would have been unlawful, that officer had no violence, or weapon seen, or even a report of criminal activity. I can tell you know just enough about laws to make an opinion but not fully enough to be correct.

I'm sorry, but the fact that someone reported a brandishing doesn't make someone on the scene more dangerous. That isn't a matter of perception, but your own assumptions about the situation.

In fact, you might want to go back and reread Terry again, because it clearly lays out the facts that led to the suspicion on the part of the officer. He specifically identified behaviors from the suspects that were out of the ordinary.
He testified that, after observing their elaborately casual and oft-repeated reconnaissance of the store window on Huron Road, he suspected the two men of "casing a job, a stick-up," and that he considered it his duty as a police officer to investigate further.
Officer McFadden had reason to suspect them on the basis of their actions after observing their behavior directly.

Tell me, what should Hendu have done to keep from being deemed "armed and dangerous" in your opinion? Can you identify any actions he could have taken that you wouldn't have decided made him suspicious (other than simply not being armed)? If not, then it all boils down to you would deem him dangerous merely because of the fact that he was armed, which goes well beyond Terry's allowable parameters.

You shouldn't be able to suspend someone's rights merely because you assume that they are dangerous. You need to actually observe something about their behavior that provides a reasonable basis for that assumption, something that an otherwise innocent person would not have done.

The test is very simple: if Hendu had been concealing his firearm instead of wearing it openly, and otherwise behaved the same (as described in his account), would you determine that there was a reasonable basis to detain and search him? Would you have reason to believe that he was dangerous if you didn't know that he was armed?

If your answer is no, then all of your excuses reduce down to an assertion that a person who is armed is inherently dangerous, regardless of the rest of the circumstances. That simply doesn't meet the standard described in Terry.
 

NovaCop

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Gry,
Yes I would have Terry frisked him most likely. I say most likely because the gun added suspicion before because the suspect had a gun (same if the suspect had on a red jersey and he had one too). You are stuck on the fact he was only stopped because he had a gun... I am pointing out that the gun doesn't matter for the stop except adds a lot of RAS that he now fits the suspect description.

Will you explain a situation that you believe would give an officer legal RAS to Terry stop and frisk?

I have been in similar situations like this and stopped people and have recovered guns, I have never had a stop challenged legally neither by the prosecutor or defense. If you know something that they don't or myself please explain so I can tell them.
 
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tcmech

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He was disarmed for a brandishing complaint with ras that he was a suspect. No search warrant needed for curtilige of a property so I don't know why you're so stuck on it being his property.

I do understand that people can cross the street, walk over to their neighbors etc, but when you state that he was disarmed with RAS I would like to know what that was. I understand that the officer could have had it but I personally believe they need to state it to the people to whom they are using it on. I don't think people who are committing a crime will stand outside and wait when they see the police approaching.

I disagree with you strongly on no search warrant needed, even though the courts may not feel the way I do. If I have identified myself, stated this is my property, you are looking for the person across the street. The officer needs to respect my rights as a citizen, ultimately his employer to whom he needs to answer.

I do care about the safety of all involved, and I understand being a cop is a tough and dangerous job, but your safety is no more important than mine, or any of my other rights.
 

NovaCop

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Tcmech,

I don't even know where to begin. Warrant to talk to an armed suspect standing in a yard? Respect that you verbally say it's your property and the suspect is across the street?

--Moderator deleted personal attack--

Read my posts 184 and 218 and the cases I provided if you want the RAS.
 

crazydude6030

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Post number 147
Don't let them discourage you, their posts are full of ignorance, disrespect, and immaturity. They won't be able to formulate any sort of intelligent response, so they resort to name calling (watch them do it to me in the next post or so).


Ok, I give up, this is useless trying to debate with such ignorant posters.
.

It's a bit offensive you resort to this level when you yourself commented how people do it to you. If you won't want mud in your eye then stop slinging it! People posting their opinion based on their experiences and supporting case law don't make them ignorant anymore than it does you. There have been valid points based off of case cite and you reach out with gems like this.
 

NovaCop

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I don't remember coming across any case law besides what I provided, and the Terry case a few members are interpreting themselves. I didn't mean to be offensive but if someone believes a search warrant is needed to speak to a possible armed suspect in a front yard then they don't have any grasp on law. I can't get into a discussion explaining ten pages of law about seizures and warrants. I didn't mean to come off as rude, just a little frustrated. I hope some legal classes are in order.

Ignorance is lack of knowledge, I don't think I was incorrect with that comment it was just saying the poster is showing a lack of knowledge. I'm ignorant to accounting.
 
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Hendu024

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Gry,
Yes I would have Terry frisked him most likely. I say most likely because the gun added suspicion before because the suspect had a gun (same if the suspect had on a red jersey and he had one too). You are stuck on the fact he was only stopped because he had a gun... I am pointing out that the gun doesn't matter for the stop except adds a lot of RAS that he now fits the suspect description.

Will you explain a situation that you believe would give an officer legal RAS to Terry stop and frisk?

I have been in similar situations like this and stopped people and have recovered guns, I have never had a stop challenged legally neither by the prosecutor or defense. If you know something that they don't or myself please explain so I can tell them.

Wait, are you saying you would have Terry frisked me even if I was CC'ing?? Or did I miss something?
 

Hendu024

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Well the OP stated that more officers arrived on scene during the interaction with the first. He also stated that the victim remained closed by as well. We can only guess to what happened after the gun was seized. I can guess and say that the other officers met with the victim and got a better description of the suspect and relayed over to the first officer it wasn't the guy. Or the victim actually was able to see the OP and say it wasn't him. Or some of you can guess that the first officer hates gun owners so much that he disregarded his own safety to seize a gun from an innocent person just for fun thus putting his own job and freedom at stake, then went to the real culprit's house. Regardless, I don't think debating that point is worth while since there are too many uknowns. I won't even get into the 3rd party comment by the officer who didn't really get a chance to explain his apparent comment.

Nope, when I was disarmed, the cop told me "you'll get this back when we're done". I got into a very short argument with the shift supervisor, and then they walked off next door. The time between him disarming me and them walking over next door was about 20-25 seconds max. They knew where they were headed.
 

papa bear

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this thread is like the one in the Washington forum.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?90159-Contacted-by-Kennewick-PD-on-my-own-street…
i find it interesting that this argument is going on in opposite ends of the nation.

Novacop10, i was wondering, you said that Hendu024 was suspicious because he was carrying a holstered firearm. sorry if i am not wording this right. do you think everyone that is openly holstering a firearm is suspicious and/or suspect of committing a crime? would you stop and disarm anybody that you saw OCing? no offense intended, just wondering

hendu024, so much reading i might have missed it. did you at least get a "Sorry, Mr. hendu we had to make sure you weren't the BG", as they hand you firearm back to you?
 

Jonesy

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Tell me, what should Hendu have done to keep from being deemed "armed and dangerous" in your opinion? Can you identify any actions he could have taken that you wouldn't have decided made him suspicious (other than simply not being armed)? If not, then it all boils down to you would deem him dangerous merely because of the fact that he was armed, which goes well beyond Terry's allowable parameters.

You shouldn't be able to suspend someone's rights merely because you assume that they are dangerous. You need to actually observe something about their behavior that provides a reasonable basis for that assumption, something that an otherwise innocent person would not have done.

This is simply not the law, a court after the fact determines if there is reasonable articuable suspicion sufficient for a Terry stop, this does not require that you observe something about the suspects behavior. Example, the police get a call of an armed robbery with a description of a suspect, if you are in the area and meet the description, a Terry stop is likely warranted, without any observations of the suspects behavior.

I can easily articulate RAS for a Terry stop here, and Novacop has done a decent job of exactly that. The fact that Hendu did not take any actions to further the RAS or act in a suspicous manner does not matter, just as the man meeting the description of the armed robber does not have to do anything suspicous for RAS to be present.

The circumstances alone here create RAS, call of man brandishing gun, threatening others, man in immediate area armed, signalling to officers. Good luck convincing any Virginia court that there is not RAS for a Terry stop, not gonna happen. A court will consider whether the officers could reasonably believe Hendu was armed and dangerous.

If you argue there is no RAS on the Constitutional Law exam, you will get a low grade.
 
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NovaCop

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Papabear,

No! No RAS just for Ocing. That's not what happened in this case.

Hendu,

Yes, Terry frisk, look it up.
 
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Hendu024

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this thread is like the one in the Washington forum.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?90159-Contacted-by-Kennewick-PD-on-my-own-street…
i find it interesting that this argument is going on in opposite ends of the nation.

Novacop10, i was wondering, you said that Hendu024 was suspicious because he was carrying a holstered firearm. sorry if i am not wording this right. do you think everyone that is openly holstering a firearm is suspicious and/or suspect of committing a crime? would you stop and disarm anybody that you saw OCing? no offense intended, just wondering

hendu024, so much reading i might have missed it. did you at least get a "Sorry, Mr. hendu we had to make sure you weren't the BG", as they hand you firearm back to you?


Nope, he said 'here you go' and walked off.
 

Hendu024

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Papabear,

No! No RAS just for Ocing. That's not what happened in this case.

Hendu,

Yes, Terry frisk, look it up.

Yeah Nova, I've looked it up before. Just wanted to make sure we were clear. You show up on scene, I'm CC'ing, we make contact, you walk over to my property, I tell you I called 911 and you would Terry frisk me?? And I've got the twisted view on the law? Whaaaatever.
 

TFred

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Yeah Nova, I've looked it up before. Just wanted to make sure we were clear. You show up on scene, I'm CC'ing, we make contact, you walk over to my property, I tell you I called 911 and you would Terry frisk me?? And I've got the twisted view on the law? Whaaaatever.
I think any little bit of credibility that he might have had left for this thread just went down the drain with this one... blurb, blurb, blurb...

Once you realize the truth of the observation I posted earlier, it really all gets lost in the weeds, so I've tried to not get too engaged in the details here... but yeah, this last claim strains credulity well beyond the limit.

TFred
 

Jonesy

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Yeah Nova, I've looked it up before. Just wanted to make sure we were clear. You show up on scene, I'm CC'ing, we make contact, you walk over to my property, I tell you I called 911 and you would Terry frisk me?? And I've got the twisted view on the law? Whaaaatever.

Hmmmm, without the hangun being visible, I am doubtful that there would be RAS for a Terry stop and frisk. Wanna articulate RAS without the gun Novacop?
 
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NovaCop

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Hmmmm, without the hangun being visible, I am doubtful that there would be RAS for a Terry stop and frisk. Wanna articulate RAS without the gun Novacop?

I stated that I might have frisked w/out the gun... the gun in this case really sets forth RAS to believe he was the one w/the gun, look at my previous post on the same page.

Jonesy,

Check out Scott v. Commonwealth of VA... cops did basically just that and it was upheld.
 
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Hendu024

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I stated that I might have frisked w/out the gun... the gun in this case really sets forth RAS to believe he was the one w/the gun, look at my previous post on the same page.


Hah wow. Typical response from a paranoid cop. Maybe you should go into a different profession. Or better yet Germany would be a good fit for you, the police state that it is.
 

NovaCop

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Yeah Nova, I've looked it up before. Just wanted to make sure we were clear. You show up on scene, I'm CC'ing, we make contact, you walk over to my property, I tell you I called 911 and you would Terry frisk me?? And I've got the twisted view on the law? Whaaaatever.

I said I most likely would have frisked you, this being after asking if you had weapons or seeing a bulge. Absence that, I don't want to speculate, depends on what info I was given (maybe if you match other descriptors).

Hendu, did you tell the dispatcher you had a gun on your or that you would be outside waiting for police?

On a side note, I agree that the Police should have offered you an explanation before they left.

Hendu,
You call the police because a nearby neighbor threatens someone with a handgun, which is pretty serious stuff. You contact police and go outside with a holstered gun. When the officer is walking on the street, you waive at his direction, then you complain when they reasonably suspect you might be the one brandishing. Look up VA self defense laws and you will see that if that neighbor came back outside, you will be in heat for not going inside if you choose to use that weapon. You show poor decision making skills combined with legal knowledge.

You are focusing in on me being paranoid for wanting to be safe? Yet I think everyone can agree your tactics were extremely dumb to stand in the line of fire of a potentially dangerous armed neighbor in your front yard with a holstered gun.
 
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Grapeshot

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Hmmmm, without the hangun being visible, I am doubtful that there would be RAS for a Terry stop and frisk. Wanna articulate RAS without the gun Novacop?

I stated that I might have frisked w/out the gun... the gun in this case really sets forth RAS to believe he was the one w/the gun, look at my previous post on the same page.

There is a fundamental difference between "might have" and "would have."

From post #283
Yes I would have Terry frisked him most likely.
 
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