Chesterfield Man arrested for open carrying NEAR a school

[user]

Good point, PM70002; one of my pet peeves for a long time has been people's thinking that their mailing address is where they're actually located. Most people still don't realize that the "city, state, zip" information in their mailing address is the location of the post office that their mail goes through. So there are folks in Bristol who aren't sure whether they're in Virginia or Tennesee, and people in Fairfax County who think they're in Falls Church or Alexandria. Drives me nuts.

 

[wylde007]

Thanks Wylde! I was hoping you'd chime in.
My GPS (not a navigator) was expensive and I have no idea what it uses to determine location but when I checked it against a Topo Map while it was n a tripod, it was very close.

Are you using a Trimble, Sokkia, Leica?

I' may PM you about this because I still have to find an accurate plat to find the points triangulate from. This has to be very close. I know the rangefinder is accurate because I can calibrate it to a tape.

At your leisure. If you can tell me the municipality I can probably get you what you need or get you in touch with the right people.

The problem is that most plats of record do not have physical features shown on them. Property pins/monuments are generally buried in the ground and are not practical for use with a "rangefinder" unless you construct a target directly above them, something you could fabricate with a plumb bob and bicycle reflector... and some help from a friend.

Good point, PM70002; one of my pet peeves for a long time has been people's thinking that their mailing address is where they're actually located.

My wife has family who live in Kinston but their mail is delivered from Trenton, NC.

 

[Blk97F150]

You know, it just occurred to me. Given all the dangers associated with schools, as recited in the federal statute, I have become convinced that the risks outweigh the benefits of schools. They are clearly too dangerous to society and cause all sorts of harms to children. Since schools cause so much harm to children, we should clearly outlaw schools. I've become an advocate for school-control.

Education begins at home....

 

[abechira]

Well, actually, yes he can. Looking like a joint is RAS enough for the arrest.

The better question is: can you be convicted because it was "close enough"?

The cops who arrested the young man who was not on school property but "close enough" ought to be found not to have had RAS -- but the probability of that may be slim.

stay safe.

Did you mean RAS or Probable Cause... I believe RAS is for detaining you and Probable Cause is for arresting you... 'Nothing but the facts mam.'

 

[paramedic70002]

...

Now before you start the ...Oh you'll find out when you need us...

A few years ago I got appendicitis. It was deer season so I put it off for a few days and it burst.
I didn't dial 911. Went to the hospital, had them take it out and checked myself out a few hours later...and went hunting.

Same thing with a heart attack, gunshot, two broken legs and a finger nearly severed.
Some people live their lives on their terms...not the governments.

I will never need or want you! (In a professional sense, you're always welcome otherwise:lol

First let me say I appreciate your unwillingness to call 911. I can put you in touch with a few folks in my area that need to be indoctrinated into your philosophy.

I also learned a long time ago that I cannot save someone from themselves. If a man is obviously in need of emergent medical care, yet is competent to refuse treatment, once I do my legal duty to explain "competent refusal of EMS" particularly that we offered to take you to the ED and you might get worse or die, and I get your signature to that effect against my recommendation that you go with us, I'm gone.

I HOPE you never need me (or the fire dept, or the police). Never is a pretty strong word, and it lasts forever.

Even if you repel home invaders all by yourself, the police need to be called to clean up the mess. I don't recommend the shoot-shovel-shut up method.

You never know when lightning is going to set your house on fire.

You may one day have a visitor that wants 911 response for THEIR emergency.

I am curious why you have such disdain for EMS. What does this have to do with "the government?" Hospitals are heavily regulated by the government. You had your heart attack, broken legs, fingers, and gunshot treated at a hospital, by a physician. EMS is just an extension of that care. In my position, I work for a hospital, but I ride on an ambulance that is owned by a volunteer rescue squad. The only government involvement is that the County pays my hospital for my services under contract. Even if you are served by a city agency I don't get it.

Are you aware (I'm not being sarcastic, many people aren't) that EMS provides quite thorough first line treatment for a myriad of ailments, not just a fast ride to the hospital?

I can administer several drugs to treat your heart attack, including aspirin to dissolve clots; nitroglycerine and morphine to alleviate pain, ease cardiac stress, and reduce cardiac workload; oxygen to maximize oxygenation of cardiac tissue which is dying because of a cardiovascular clot.

I can interpret your 12 lead ECG, diagnose a "STEMI" and summon a helo to fly you to the most appropriate cardiac surgery center. Time is heart tissue.

I can identify a stroke and summon a helo to fly you to the most appropriate stroke center. Time is brain.

I can administer drugs and electricity that can stabilize a quivering, too fast or too slow heart rate that will kill you.

I can put on a CPAP mask and fix your inability to breathe due to pulmonary edema within a minute.

I can staunch a life threatening blood loss before you bleed out.

I can breathe for you if you go into respiratory arrest.

As an uninvolved party, I can see important things about your condition that you may overlook.

And all this can be done BEFORE you ever get to the Emergency Department in a car, IF you arrive alive. What if you pass out while driving yourself to the ED?

 

[peter nap]

We've strayed way too far OT now Paramedic.
You asked about 911 addresses and now you know that I don't have one.

I'll be happy to tell you privately about my dislike for government services and that includes volunteer services sometime. Just PM me.

You did say this though..

and I get your signature to that effect against my recommendation that you go with us, I'm gone.

That situation came up about 30 years ago. I did sign it and caused a ton of problems so it won't ever happen again. I hope others realize that they don't have to sign anything and don't. You're gone anyway!

Anyway...back OT.

 

[Skeptic]

Good point, PM70002; one of my pet peeves for a long time has been people's thinking that their mailing address is where they're actually located. .

The area I live in has intersection of 4 or 5 zip codes in a 1/2 radius or so - not that unusual I suppose until you find out that most of these zip codes stretch for 20 miles and some for 40 miles or more. One of the zip codes stretches from part of Goochland all the way up to Spostylvania county, while neighbor 3 houses over is in another zip code that stretches a different direction.

Needless to say there is a lot of confusion with the mail there, not to mention getting other deliveries, repair men, etc. At least the people there generally know where they live even if others have issues (I know one of them had problems at the voting booth because the inspector insisted that they lived in another county)


Anyhow back On Topic.. I hope we hear more about this case soon - real facts not media supposition. I am starting to wonder if I should be avoiding schools now

 

[user]

... Anyhow back On Topic.. I hope we hear more about this case soon - real facts not media supposition. I am starting to wonder if I should be avoiding schools now

My view is that enforcement of the federal statute is generally a non-issue to anyone who isn't arrested for possession of drugs, engaged in kidnapping, etc. They use that statute as a bargaining chip in plea deals, and for "enhanced penalties" where someone is actually caught while engaged in some other criminal conduct. I wouldn't worry about it.

I wonder what would happen if, on one particular day, at a particular time, everyone who is in otherwise lawful possession of a firearm were to avoid entering any "gun free school zones". Traffic would have to stop dead at a point a thousand feet from the perimeter of every school on every road in the area. I wonder what it would be like if that happened on a national scale? And it wouldn't be a "demonstration", because everyone involved would be simply obeying a federal law. I'm thinking of a "work to the rule" action, to put it in Union terms.

 

[peter nap]

My view is that enforcement of the federal statute is generally a non-issue to anyone who isn't arrested for possession of drugs, engaged in kidnapping, etc. They use that statute as a bargaining chip in plea deals, and for "enhanced penalties" where someone is actually caught while engaged in some other criminal conduct. I wouldn't worry about it.

I wonder what would happen if, on one particular day, at a particular time, everyone who is in otherwise lawful possession of a firearm were to avoid entering any "gun free school zones". Traffic would have to stop dead at a point a thousand feet from the perimeter of every school on every road in the area. I wonder what it would be like if that happened on a national scale? And it wouldn't be a "demonstration", because everyone involved would be simply obeying a federal law. I'm thinking of a "work to the rule" action, to put it in Union terms.

From what I've found so far, and that's not much, this doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Federal GFZ.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this arrest, Dan.
It just doesn't make sense.

 

[user]

This isn't just misinformed it is flat out wrong.

You DO NOT own the sidewalk in front of your house nor do you have any responsibility to it.

In the Commonwealth of Virginia we are a "colonial" land state. That means all lands can be traced back (adversed) to the original land grants from the King of England. Roadways in Virginia are not "easements" which grant someone permission to traverse property on a public thoroughfare while the underlying fee (ownership) remains to the adjacent owner, leased to the state.

In Virginia, right-of-ways are owned 100% by the city or county. School property does not protrude into the right-of-way. They are separate, specific entities which do not overlap. You are either in the street or you are on school property. Not withstanding the conundrum of straddling the right-of-way line (which would place you legally ON school property) you cannot be in two places at once.

If anyone ever got sued for the sidewalk in front of their house I would like to hear about it. The sidewalks and streets are the responsibility of the municipality - not the adjacent private citizens.

As much as I like Wylde007, I don't think I can endorse any part of the ideas expressed here.

 

[user]

From what I've found so far, and that's not much, this doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Federal GFZ.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this arrest, Dan.
It just doesn't make sense.

Don't know enough about it. I've sent his attorney an email (in which I did not ask for any privileged or strategic information), so we'll see whether he'll tell me anything. One thing is certain, because of the comments made in this thread about the vague nature of the definition of "grounds", the statute is badly written, and I would argue unconstitutionally so. If the average Wal-Mart Shopper can't look at the statute and be able to obey it then it's too vague to be enforced. If you have to know whether or not the county owns the real estate that the road is on, or whether it has a mere right of way such that the adjacent landowners own the fee-simple interest to the center of the roadway in order to determine whether or not you're apt to be prosecuted for a crime, then that statute is defective.

 

[wylde007]

As much as I like Wylde007, I don't think I can endorse any part of the ideas expressed here.

Why?

They're 100% true and factually accurate.

 

[architect]

...
...Went to the hospital, had them take it out and checked myself out a few hours later...and went hunting.

You didn't remove it yourself? Wimp.

 

[user]

Why?....

The problem is that the term, "property" is an abstraction. "Property" is a synonym of "characteristic", not "land". An interest in property inheres in the person having the interest, not in the land. So there are all sorts of properties of which a person might be "seized and possessed" which are different in both time and space. Several persons may have interests in the same dirt simultaneously - rights of way, easements, fees simple subject to conditions subsequent or precedent, reverters and possiblies of reverter, inchoate dower and curtesy interests, remainders both vested and unvested, equitable interests, legal interests, etc. Moreover, property interests may vary and shift over time. So let's say the school in question owns the land out to the center of the road subject to an easement for the roadway; can you tell from that whether the schools interest is a trust subject to open? a contingent remainder? an estate for the life of some other person ("pur autre vie")? My objection is really as to the categorical nature of the statements; unless I've gone and researched the land records, myself (I do not rely on title insurance companies' reports), I take the position that I just plain can't tell spit about any particular piece of dirt. (The central reason why the statute under consideration here, and specifically, paragraph "B" of that statute, is unconstitutionally vague.)

So, while title to all land in Virginia can be traced back to some grant by an English sovereign, but, while you cannot physically be in two places at once, you can intrude on two or more property interests at once.

 

[wylde007]

So let's say the school in question owns the land out to the center of the road subject to an easement for the roadway; can you tell from that whether the schools interest is a trust subject to open?

Except that it does not generally work that way in Virginia. A road is either "public" and owned, maintained and operated by the state/locality or it is "private" and maintained by otherwise.

Of course, I have seen sidewalk (pedestrian) easements about property in some instances, but the act of transiting them does not invoke trespass onto the private property which they traverse does it? No, of course not.

unless I've gone and researched the land records, myself (I do not rely on title insurance companies' reports), I take the position that I just plain can't tell spit about any particular piece of dirt.

Ah, but then neither could the officer, right? The burden rests on him to prove you WERE in violation.

So, while title to all land in Virginia can be traced back to some grant by an English sovereign, but, while you cannot physically be in two places at once, you can intrude on two or more property interests at once.

For some instances, yes, but rarely (if ever) for REAL PROPERTY, which I thought was what we were discussing.

 

[Grapeshot]

Real property law has more twists and turns in it than most realize - and more snakes than Medusa's head.

Title companies are insurance companies - they look to satisfy/protect their interest through marginally performed research - they are playing the actuary's odds. They don't guarantee anything, just promise to help you.

User makes a good case and is easy to follow.

 

[user]

And, back to the matter at hand, I've had a bit of email with Mr. Alkabily's attorney, Peter Baruch. He doesn't want to talk about it, even with another attorney. I told him there are people who might be willing and able to help him with the case, and that there's a group of dedicated and interested people watching the case carefully. He's not interested. One thing we agreed on is that neither of us knows the other. So I'll be as interested as everyone else to watch that case carefully. I pointed out to him why I think that statute is unconstitutionally vague, but no response - I wonder whether, as a former prosecutor, he regards such arguments as "technicalities".

The next hearing date is July 13 at 1:00 p.m., which looks like the preliminary hearing to me, in the Chesterfield Co. General District Court. I'm hoping that some folks will be able to go there, listen to the statements of witnesses in support of the probable cause basis, and tell us what they said.

 

[peter nap]

He's not interested.
Pretty much the impression I got.

I'm hoping that some folks will be able to go there, listen to the statements of witnesses in support of the probable cause basis, and tell us what they said.
I think you can count on that.

Thanks Dan!

 

[2a4all]

...

Now before you start the ...Oh you'll find out when you need us...

A few years ago I got appendicitis. It was deer season so I put it off for a few days and it burst.
I didn't dial 911. Went to the hospital, had them take it out and checked myself out a few hours later...and went hunting.

Same thing with a heart attack, gunshot, two broken legs and a finger nearly severed.
Some people live their lives on their terms...not the governments.

I will never need or want you! (In a professional sense, you're always welcome otherwise:lol

A hunting we will go, a hunting we will go, hi ho the derio, a hunting we will go! The after effects of anesthesia be damned. Did you also drive in this condition? At least Rooster Cogburn let his horse do the navigating.

 

[peter nap]

A hunting we will go, a hunting we will go, hi ho the derio, a hunting we will go! The after effects of anesthesia be damned. Did you also drive in this condition? At least Rooster Cogburn let his horse do the navigating.

You must be a dog hunter. They're the only ones that drive.