CADL seeks to outlaw OC in Michigan

[PDinDetroit]

It was still Legally a pistol at the time of Huntington Woods.

10/22 was bought from an FFL as a long arm, converted to and registered as a MI Pistol with an aftermarket folding stock, but i bought a 16" threaded barrel, and to keep it from becoming an SBR i had to switch the stock again, i switched it from a side folder to a Collapsible(Archangel 556),which made the overall length be over 30 inches.(I want to confirm that i had not assembled the 16" barrel and the folding stock together even for a few seconds, i measured everything before, to avoid constructing an SBR for even a few seconds)

I contacted the MSP and explained that i had converted it back to a "long arm" configuration and had sold the items(side folding stock) which could turn it back into a Michigan Pistol(Or SBR, depending on which barrel was in) and i ended up bringing it into the MSP Headquarters for the Firearms records division to have them confirm it in person, long story short it was effectively unregistered as a pistol, as referenced by a letter shown in the below picture.

Thanks for coming to this thread, posting, and clarifying what the 10/22 was at that time.

From Ruger's Website, the shortest barrel that they sell on the Compact Model is 16.12". Please see the following link for details:

http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Compact/specSheets/1168.html

What was the side folder that was used to make it a MI Pistol?

For the Michigan Pistol that I created, I used the 10/22 Carbine Model which came with an 18.5" Barrel and replaced the Standard Wood Stock with an ATI 6 Position Side Folder which ended up at 26.25" OAL. I was very careful to check out the specs before even buying the replacement stock. If I had a 16" barrel with this configuration, it would have been an SBR and currently illegal in MI (hopefully changing soon!).

I do find it interesting that you were able to take it from Pistol back to Rifle Configuration and get the MSP to issue that document (a better scan may be helpful to others, blanking out personal information). Since I could find no MI Law on it and the Federal Laws always considered it a Long Gun/Rifle, I could see that what you did was completely legal. I just hope that you took this information to the LPD as well to ensure that the "Agency Copy" has been amended as well (no need for yourself or others to get "jammed up" legally if LPD still has it on their records as a Pistol).

 

[autosurgeon]

No way to unregister a pistol. So at any point it is between 26 and 30 inches it is again treated as a pistol. No need to reregister it.

I find it ironic that people that do not fully understand the situation and who were not directly involved with Tyler are arguing about this on the side of Tyler.

Finally let's not lose sight of the fact that we are in the fight now and moaning about how we got here does not help win the fight. HOW WE GOT HERE IS IRRELEVANT!!!!!!

Sent from my Inspire 4G via Tapatalk flying mail monkeys

 

[Yance]

I agree with what you said, you are responsible for every round fired from your gun, assault rifles will go through and through possibly hitting someone on the other side, a shotgun will spray with shot, but also you can miss with a handgun, ricoche a round, or if you have FMJ it will go through and hit someone on the other side. Its something that you have to think about no matter what you carry, from a self defense stand point I would say Ocing a long gun for an SD situation is a little pushing the envelope, not because of what youre carrying but how its carried. A pistol on your waist is a lot easier to access than a long gun strapped over your shoulder when someone has a gun in your face or a knife to your stomach.

Edited

 

[stainless1911]

I find it ironic that people that do not fully understand the situation and who were not directly involved with Tyler are arguing about this on the side of Tyler.

Finally let's not lose sight of the fact that we are in the fight now and moaning about how we got here does not help win the fight. HOW WE GOT HERE IS IRRELEVANT!!!!!!

I argued this point, and any other, based on the information that is available to me.

Irrelevant? Sorta, An accurate history of events does help to sort out the whats and whys of how things happen.

IMO this is the single most important thread on the Michigan forum.

 

[Yance]

it is definitely the one that will have the most important result in the end.

 

[PDinDetroit]

Isn't possession of the parts to assemble an illegal firearm also considered constructive possession?

I have seen conflicting information on this from the ATF depending upon which area of the Federal Firearms Laws being discussed, I am not aware that MI Firearm Law has any statements about "constructive possession" for SBR/SBS. From MI Firearm Laws:

Definitions
...
(b) “Barrel length” means the internal length of a firearm as measured from the face of the closed breech of the firearm when it is unloaded, to the forward face of the end of the barrel.
...
(i) “Short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
...
(k) “Short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having 1 or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-222

750.224b Short-barreled shotgun or rifle; manufacture, sale, or possession as felony; penalty; exceptions; applicability to collector's item.

Sec. 224b.

(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

(3) This section does not apply to the sale, offering for sale, or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun which the secretary of the treasury of the United States of America, or his or her delegate, under 26 USC, sections 5801 through 5872, or 18 USC, sections 921 through 928, has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece, or collector's item not likely to be used as a weapon, but only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the firearm has also fully complied with section 2 or 2a of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422 and 28.422a.

Section 20 of chapter 16 of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 776.20, applies to this subsection.

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-224b

I have done several Saiga Conversions and had to meet 18 USC 922 (r) Compliance when moving from the Sporter Configuration to an AK-Type Configuration (10 or less Imported Parts). At least with these conversions, "constructive possession" does not appear to come into play and only counts as to what the Rifle/Shotgun is Actually Assembled From.

Some resources on this:

http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/forum/65-saiga-922r-compliance-the-law/

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/18530-parts-count-on-saiga-shotguns-and-rifles/

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rParts

 

[michhunter]

I agree with what you said, you are responsible for every round fired from your gun, assault rifles will go through and through possibly hitting someone on the other side, a shotgun will spray with shot, but also you can miss with a handgun, ricoche a round, or if you have FMJ it will go through and hit someone on the other side. Its something that you have to think about no matter what you carry, from a self defense stand point I would say Ocing a long gun for an SD situation is a little pushing the envelope, not because of what youre carrying but how its carried. A pistol on your waist is a lot easier to access than a long gun strapped over your shoulder when someone has a gun in your face or a knife to your stomach.

Edited

I understand all that is being said, and know why we need to fight with Lil and not against him but not only do I think that some that shouldn't be hurt around when the shotgun goes off is not far to them. Not to mention that IMO trying to get a long gun off your shoulder if ever in a tight stop or fast in emergncy type situation could do more harm then good.

I will back Lil as much as possible just for 2A and OC but not with a long gun. For one I also feel that it could put yourself in a very bad spot too. Just to say you OC and if he is under the age to a pistol from a licensed dealer there are ways around that...............

 

[Yance]

If I read your post right, youre saying that if the shotgun goes off...Id say it has the same probability of "just going off" as an OCd handgun does. I do not agree that OC with a LG is necessary but I will still help to preserve the right to OC a LG, because if you outlaw the right to LGOC, soon the right to OC a pistol will be soon be following behind it.

 

[michhunter]

You read it right that is exactly what I am saying............ not necessarily saying that it would just go off I was saying that when/if you need to use it.

 

[stainless1911]

I dont want to get into the LGOC topic as its against the forum rules. The mods have let us a good bit of slack on this thread due to these particular circumstances.

I have to respond on this one point. A pistol is a very effective defensive weapon, but its range is very limited. About 25 yards, with regular practice. Almost everywhere you go, os going to involve significantly greater distances. Malls, Kmart, Krogers, Big box stores, parks, playgrounds, parking lots. All are places where a LG would vastly exceed the handgun for effective self defense.

That said, LGOC does, at least at this time, cause more harm than good socially and politically, which is why we are supposed to avoid the topic.


I really dont want to see this thread getting locked, so lets please chill out here.

 

[lil_freak_66]

I agree Stainless,no reason to get the thread locked, only reason i agreed to discuss it was to put some things to rest that people were unsure about, and i think that has been sufficiently accomplished.

just a thought...since CADL has a designated nuclear fallout shelter in at least one of the branches(downtown lansing) could that make it subject to preemption somehow, or some other law we could use to our advantage? i know when a state of emergency is declared, the government cannot disarm the law abiding populace.

 

[stainless1911]

Interesting angle. That might be worth bringing up. Everyone knows that if the shoe was on the other foot, that they would try to use something like that to thier advantage.

 

[Yance]

Well I guess we have to try and use every angle and advantage we can get, sounds like a good starting point.

 

[Yance]

I know the weather is getting colder, but would anyone be interested in an OC demonstration at the capitol or courthouse to show that we are upset with the way the case is going and to show support for OC...and at the very least that the OC community isnt going down silently.

 

[TheQ]

I'm in for an outside protest in front of the Hall of Justice (where the appeals court is). That being said, I'll defer to the MOC lawyers/board if they say it's a bad idea.

 

[Yance]

I'm all in as well, if it can be seen as a good idea. I feel the need to get out and do something to show support for the OC community, all that I've done, aside from an email, is discuss it on here and I think its time we get out and show that "we the people" arent happy about it. If we can get a rather large turnout I think it will make a good impression.

 

[1ADAM12]

I'm all in as well, if it can be seen as a good idea. I feel the need to get out and do something to show support for the OC community, all that I've done, aside from an email, is discuss it on here and I think its time we get out and show that "we the people" arent happy about it. If we can get a rather large turnout I think it will make a good impression.

To make the proper point however, and since the weather is colder and windy, the protest should be done with shotguns. Afterall, that is the weapon of choice that prompted the CADL unlawful actions.

 

[stainless1911]

CADL doesnt like any guns, not SG HG Rifle AT-4, or Airsoft.

 

[Yance]

To make the proper point however, and since the weather is colder and windy, the protest should be done with shotguns. Afterall, that is the weapon of choice that prompted the CADL unlawful actions.

How does that go...obvious troll is obvious..

But no, to be smart about it lets stick to hand guns, LGOC got us in the situation and it certainly isnt going to be what gets us out.

 

[Hyperion]

I'm in for an outside protest in front of the Hall of Justice (where the appeals court is). That being said, I'll defer to the MOC lawyers/board if they say it's a bad idea.

It's a bad idea.