• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Radio Commercial has libs going crazy

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
Many main stream Christians believe that Obama is the antichrist and that a lot of tragedies happen because of the wrath of god. Christians believe that god hates homosexuality and a host of other things, the WBC has taken that to the extreme and applied that hatred to the "sinner" as well.

1.) I've never heard of any other Christian church, or individual Christian person, profess that Obama is the anti-christ. A lot of people don't like him, or support his policies, but the idea that Obama is the anti-christ spoken of in Revalation is certainly NOT a mainstream Christian idea.

2.) although individual Christians may have different ideas about what is/is not God's wrath, there is not a single 'mainstream' Christian faith that I'm aware of that believes God is killing soldiers in Iraq with IED's, causing coal mine collapses and natural disasters because of the USA's tolerance of homoselxual lifestyles.

3.) God hates all sin, but God loves all mankind. Being able to separate the 'hate the sin, love the sinner' is a cornerstone of all mainstream Christian faiths, and by changing that simple understanding takes a person out of the realm of Christianity and into something entirely different.
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
NotSureIfSerious.jpg

I lol'd
 

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
#1 The 700 Club
#2 Hence why I said taking it to the extreme.

Just because its on the 700 club doesn't make it 'mainstream' Christian doctrine. That's just one preacher with a TV show, and like most Evangelicals they hold beliefs that are on the fringe of Christianity. Pat makes at least one comment a month that causes controversy inside the Church.

Just out of curiosity, do you got a link showing the 700 club declaring Obama to be the antichrist? I did a google and youtube, but came up with nothing.

on no 2, it might seem semantic, but by morphing 'God hates sins' into 'God hates sinners' you are no longer taking a Christian doctrine to the extreme, you are now creating a completely new doctrine that merely seems similar, and it goes down a completely different road. That is why I say they completely breach mainstream Christian doctrine instead of simply taking doctrines to the 'extreme'. Nothing that I've seen from the Westboro church can be taken as Christian beliefs, as they directly contradict and/or purposefully twist the Bible.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
Just because its on the 700 club doesn't make it 'mainstream' Christian doctrine. That's just one preacher with a TV show, and like most Evangelicals they hold beliefs that are on the fringe of Christianity. Pat makes at least one comment a month that causes controversy inside the Church.
article-1337561-0C62CAEF000005DC-535_634x404.jpg

There you go moving the goalposts again.

If not Pat Robertson's 700 club, what about Falwell's repeated comments about the causes of various ills in America?

on no 2, it might seem semantic, but by morphing 'God hates sins' into 'God hates sinners' you are no longer taking a Christian doctrine to the extreme, you are now creating a completely new doctrine that merely seems similar, and it goes down a completely different road. That is why I say they completely breach mainstream Christian doctrine instead of simply taking doctrines to the 'extreme'. Nothing that I've seen from the Westboro church can be taken as Christian beliefs, as they directly contradict and/or purposefully twist the Bible.
It's taking a more literal view of the Bible, and less of the happy watered down view that has become so popular with Christians because it hides the more disgusting elements of their belief system. The only difference is that you (plural) seem unwilling to recognize it in your own faith system, yet are willing to paint with a mile-wide paint brush when it comes to a different belief system. Both Christianity and Islam have their disgusting bits, but you special snowflake your own system out of that. What was it about looking at a spec of sawdust in someone else's eye while ignoring the plank in your own? Farking hypocrites.
 

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
There you go moving the goalposts again.

The day that a televangelist becomes the 'goalpost' for mainstream Christian beliefs is the day I nail my door shut and wait for 3 other horsemen to come riding.

If you really think that "Obama is the anti-christ" is a Mainstream belief held by the majority of Christians then I really have nothing else to say other than to ask where you get your drugs. :p

If not Pat Robertson's 700 club, what about Falwell's repeated comments about the causes of various ills in America?

Again, we're talking about mainstream Christianity, ie the majority of Christian men and women and local churches of whatever denomination. I have no idea what Falwell thinks about the ills of America, THAT's how 'mainstream' Falwell is. Aside from the fact that his first name is Jerry and a vague recollection that he's a Baptist/Evangalist, I have no idea who he is or what he preaches. Nor would most Christians unless they're Baptists who watch his program.

It's taking a more literal view of the Bible, and less of the happy watered down view that has become so popular with Christians because it hides the more disgusting elements of their belief system. The only difference is that you (plural) seem unwilling to recognize it in your own faith system, yet are willing to paint with a mile-wide paint brush when it comes to a different belief system.

No, it isn't taking a more literal view of the Bible. It's taking the Bible and twisting it to meet their needs. Where in the Bible does it state "God loves IED's" or that "God hates faggots" as the Westboro people often put on signs?

IT DOESNT.

Some literal interpretation....
 

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
What was it about looking at a spec of sawdust in someone else's eye while ignoring the plank in your own? Farking hypocrites.


Well, since you asked: (MATT 7:1 - 7:5)

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye
 
Last edited:

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
It's taking a more literal view of the Bible, and less of the happy watered down view that has become so popular with Christians because it hides the more disgusting elements of their belief system.

And what are the 'disgusting elements' of basic Christianity?

-Love thy neighbor
-Christ died for the sins of mankind and rose again on the 3rd day to redeem all sinners
-Everyone has an opportunity to be saved and ushered into heaven
-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
-Don't be a hypocrite
-Have faith in Christ and do good works for mankind
-Take care of widows, orphans, and those who cannot take care of themselves
-Tithe 10% to the needy
-Live life according to the teachings of Christ

Different denominations have different views on certain things, but these are the hallmarks of all branches of Christianity. I'm not seeing how these things rate as 'disgusting elements' of our belief system.
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
+2 to everything frommycolddeadhands has said. I've often noticed that those who do not believe in a particular religion (Christianity, for example) are always the first to tell us exactly what we believe, and we'd better not contradict them, dangit.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
The day that a televangelist becomes the 'goalpost' for mainstream Christian beliefs is the day I nail my door shut and wait for 3 other horsemen to come riding.

If you really think that "Obama is the anti-christ" is a Mainstream belief held by the majority of Christians then I really have nothing else to say other than to ask where you get your drugs. :p
"a lot of tragedies happen because of the wrath of god." was the other part of the initial claim. The part of yours I quoted was that mere expression from a mainstream Christian source doesn't make it a mainstream belief, which I called moving the goalposts, because you said that "there is not a single 'mainstream' Christian faith that I'm aware of that believes God is killing soldiers in Iraq with IED's, causing coal mine collapses and natural disasters because of the USA's tolerance of homoselxual lifestyles." If having a megachurch that proclaims it, a television show and network that supports it, and a representative of the group interviewed which says it isn't mainstream, what is?

I have to either go with moving the goalposts or no true scotsman, because you've set up a definition that is totally bogus. You've essentially used "mainstream" as a weasel word that allows you to call anybody doing anything you disagree with as "well, they don't count, they're not mainstream." At the same time, you flip around and support the notion that a different belief has to play by a different rulebook, because dammit, you said so.

Again, we're talking about mainstream Christianity, ie the majority of Christian men and women and local churches of whatever denomination. I have no idea what Falwell thinks about the ills of America, THAT's how 'mainstream' Falwell is. Aside from the fact that his first name is Jerry and a vague recollection that he's a Baptist/Evangalist, I have no idea who he is or what he preaches. Nor would most Christians unless they're Baptists who watch his program.
This proves my point that "mainstream" is a word without meaning as you're using it, because you can exclude any group that might reflect poorly upon you simply by claiming they're not "mainstream".


No, it isn't taking a more literal view of the Bible. It's taking the Bible and twisting it to meet their needs. Where in the Bible does it state "God loves IED's" or that "God hates faggots" as the Westboro people often put on signs?

IT DOESNT.

Some literal interpretation....

The literal interpretation of the bible would be one that still supports slavery and beating of servants, based on Luke 12 or 1 Timothy 6. Then there are things like condemning homosexuality because it was "the sin of Sodom" or some such nonsense. In fact, Ezekiel 16:49 makes it very clear that the "sin of Sodom" was not taking care of their poor! There are many other examples where you can find where two different sects of the same religion can find entirely different meaning. This is the base of why claiming "mainstream" as a meaningful distinction is bogus.

"Twisting it to meet their needs" applies to you as well, when something is said that you don't like, you say "oh, that was OT law" or "that's not applicable to the mainstream" or some such nonsense. You want to know where they get that belief? Things like Psalm 5:5 ([God] hates all that do iniquity) and Proverbs 6:16-17 (...the Lord hates... hands that shed innocent blood). I mean, geez, you can just go to their page and read where they get their beliefs from. The fact is that they are taking a very literal view of the Bible, which to my nonbelieving eyes is no more or less selective in its systematic beliefs than your expressed views. The only thing is that I don't think they're trying to claim that they are "mainstream" to prove their correctness.
 

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
+2 to everything frommycolddeadhands has said..

Thanks for the support.

+I've often noticed that those who do not believe in a particular religion (Christianity, for example) are always the first to tell us exactly what we believe, and we'd better not contradict them, dangit.

I've noticed the same. That's why I always attempt to put the real message out there. Hopefully it will educate foks (both Christian and non-Christian) what the Bible is really all about. There are a LOT of strange ideas floating around these days about what Christians are all about. Not enough people crack the good book open and just read it IMHO.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
+2 to everything frommycolddeadhands has said. I've often noticed that those who do not believe in a particular religion (Christianity, for example) are always the first to tell us exactly what we believe, and we'd better not contradict them, dangit.

I'm actually doing the opposite. I'm saying that you are picking and choosing what you believe, and it's dishonest to somehow say that your particular choices of parts you like versus parts you ignore is no different than another group who chooses a different set of parts to follow. I'm saying it is YOU who cannot exclude others from the "christian" group because they contradict your particular set of assumptions.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington

Jack House

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
I80, USA
+2 to everything frommycolddeadhands has said. I've often noticed that those who do not believe in a particular religion (Christianity, for example) are always the first to tell us exactly what we believe, and we'd better not contradict them, dangit.
Are you suggesting I do not believe in Christianity?


Posted using my HTC Evo
 

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
If having a megachurch that proclaims it, a television show and network that supports it, and a representative of the group interviewed which says it isn't mainstream, what is?

One pastor at one mega-church who makes one asinine statement on TV does not automatically make something doctrine for all of the Christian faith.

I'm still waiting for confirmation that he even said such a thing, as I could not find anything after a google or youtube search.

Again, if you think that "Obama is the anti-christ and he's in kahoots with Pope Benedict to bring about armageddon" is a doctrine that runs throughout Christendom, you are mistaken. I don't care what the Gospel according to Pat says. LOL.

Christians follow the teachings of Christ. Not the rantings of every preacher with a microphone. They're humans, they make mistakes just like the rest of us.

This proves my point that "mainstream" is a word without meaning as you're using it, because you can exclude any group that might reflect poorly upon you simply by claiming they're not "mainstream".[/QUOTE]

Actually, you're right. If you look hard enough you'll find a group of Christians who believe that dinosaur bones were put into the Earth by the devil just to befuddle mankind. You can probably find another group of Christians who believe that all crazy people are truly possessed by demons. You can find them, they're out there, but I'm saying they don't count because these beliefs are not tenents of most Christian beliefs. That's what I mean by 'mainstream'. I'm talking about values that MOST Christians hold to (Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Baptists, etc).


The literal interpretation of the bible would be one that still supports slavery and beating of servants, based on Luke 12 or 1 Timothy 6. ".
Luke 12 regarding the slave is Jesus relating a pariable to his Disciples to illustrate the point that "much will be expected of those who are given much responsibility". It was not a command or permission to beat up a servant. Christians are the servants of Christ, and as such much more will be expected of them than from a non-believer. THAT was the point he was making. He wasn't supporting the beating of anyone. He was telling a story to make a point. That's what a pariable is.
Then there are things like condemning homosexuality because it was "the sin of Sodom" or some such nonsense.
I don't consider condemning the act of homosexuality to be a 'disgusting practice'. Sorry, I don't care what the politically correct world thinks. And it isn't wicked because it was the 'sin of Sodom'. It was already a sin BEFORE Sodom, as it is considered an abomination. Men simply were not meant to lay with other men. Pretty cut and dry. I'm sure you'll disagree.

In fact, Ezekiel 16:49 makes it very clear that the "sin of Sodom" was not taking care of their poor! There are many other examples where you can find where two different sects of the same religion can find entirely different meaning. This is the base of why claiming "mainstream" as a meaningful distinction is bogus..
Check Genesis, chapter 18 I believe. It states that the people in Sodom were performing sexual immoralities of all kinds. (This likely goes way beyond just homosexuality. It likely includes beastiality and pedophilia, but that's just my interpretation.) Later two angels are nearly raped as they go to visit Lot. They had to strike the population blind in order to keep this from happening.

Perhaps Sodom didn't take care of it's poor, but the sexual sins of the city are in fact an integral part of their judgement.


"
 
Last edited:

Brion

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
160
Location
Goldsboro, NC
I will not tell this man he can't say what has been said. In fact, just like Wesboro Baptist church, I might disagree, but I will never tell them they can't do what they do. I will defend the right this man has exercised till death.
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
I'm actually doing the opposite. I'm saying that you are picking and choosing what you believe, and it's dishonest to somehow say that your particular choices of parts you like versus parts you ignore is no different than another group who chooses a different set of parts to follow. I'm saying it is YOU who cannot exclude others from the "christian" group because they contradict your particular set of assumptions.

Hell, I'd get behind that. If people had the critical thinking skills and sat down and read through the Bible from end to end, perhaps an annotated one, maybe there would be fewer Christians running around talking about how their belief is perfect and not full of evil things (while often being self-contradictory).

I really hate getting dragged into off topic rants that further nothing beyond frustration and keyboard commandos, but I have an issue with the above statements that I can't dismiss.

Some people do pick and choose, but to paint everyone with the same brush is silly. You don't know what faith I am, or what I believe or how I live. I could repeat that last sentence for every individual you are judging. I don't think frommycolddeadhands is excluding people; rather he is trying to explain to you that they do not represent everyone who considers themselves Christian.

Now, are there dark things in the history of Christianity? Yes. There are evils in the history of everything , because man is involved, and man is fallible, man is temptable. That does not invalidate a belief system. I've never claimed my faith is or was perfect; only God is perfect. Human kind is well known to muck things up. And when they do, just because they do it the name of religion (insert here) does not mean their actions are sanctioned or condoned by that faith or those who follow it.

To get back on topic; this man has the right to refuse business, just as everyone else has the right to refuse giving him business. Now that his "policy" is public, people can make an informed decision when they are looking for training.
 

SovereignAxe

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
And what are the 'disgusting elements' of basic Christianity?

-Love thy neighbor
-Christ died for the sins of mankind and rose again on the 3rd day to redeem all sinners
-Everyone has an opportunity to be saved and ushered into heaven
-Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
-Don't be a hypocrite
-Have faith in Christ and do good works for mankind
-Take care of widows, orphans, and those who cannot take care of themselves
-Tithe 10% to the needy
-Live life according to the teachings of Christ

Different denominations have different views on certain things, but these are the hallmarks of all branches of Christianity. I'm not seeing how these things rate as 'disgusting elements' of our belief system.

He didn't say basic Christianity, he just said elements of Christianity. And what are they? How about:

-Vilifying atheists, science, gays, etc
-Picking and choosing elements of the Bible to follow; the parts about homosexuals and masturbation are mostly found in the Old Testament, but the Old Testament is way to archaic to consider stoning to death our friends and family if they attemp to have us worship another god.
-Claiming one cannot be moral without the Bible. The Bible makes no mention of Slavery being immoral, but we've obviously moved on from that.

Granted, not all Christians are like this (except for picking a choosing-every Christian is guilty of this and you pretty much have to be), and even the ones that are have really good intentions. But even those with good intentions can ruin lives. Christian parents with homosexual children often put them through absolute hell on Earth thinking they can "cure" them of homosexuality. Same with atheist kids. And good luck to those kids that are gay and atheist with oppressive Christian parents.
 
Top