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Then shoot me... If I'm stealing your money by threat of force then shoot me...

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Income Tax is a tax on the fruits of your hard labor, plain and simple. Do you voluntarily pay this tax? No, you do not, you pay out of fear fear that armed agents of the government will come and arrest you and then incarcerate you for not letting the government steal the fruits of your labor.

Sheep follow the system, sheep live in fear and sheep want everyone to live in fear so that they are not considered sheep. They want to be considered good law abiding citizens while threatening non sheep with violence.

More to follow.

CCJ

Many sheep are excused from paying taxes on the fruit of their labor, and there are those that get money back they never paid in on the fruits of others labor. It is no surprise that these are the sheep who agree with income taxes.

Careful folks some will think you are extremist for speaking truth and your mind.....

after all they (the government) will always need willing sheep to execute the tyrannical orders....(line someone up on the side of the ditch and pull a trigger)
 

Primus

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Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
Ok so someone help me out... your position is NO taxes? If that's the case how does the .gov fund anything? From streets, to construction, to employees (RMV, EMS, Fire, Police, Education, etc. etc.).

Is the position more closely that you don't agree how the money is being spent? If that's the case then change the guys who are spending it.

I'm just looking for an alterior method of running the .gov, whether it be a town, county, state, or the Feds. Last I checked, even the "Founding Fathers" weren't against taxes, they were against taxes without having a say where they go.

Please make your position a little clearer if possible.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Import, export taxes, or tariffs, ya know like the gov used to fund necessary gov functions. NOW gov is taking money to perform functions that was never intended by our founders. We would be just fine with 10% of the present government.
 

Primus

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Messages
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Import, export taxes, or tariffs, ya know like the gov used to fund necessary gov functions. NOW gov is taking money to perform functions that was never intended by our founders. We would be just fine with 10% of the present government.

Please cite bolded.

I'm under the impression that there already is import and export taxes, but it's not enough to fund just the military never mind anything else. For example, this chart says 1.25 % of Revenue. I understand it's not in dollar amount, but I'm pretty certain 1% isn't enough to fund the Military. So where do you get the rest of the money?

http://www.orkii.com/united-states/government-taxes-on-international-trade-percent-of-revenue
 
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Primus

Regular Member
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Oct 24, 2013
Messages
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United States
Also, that would be the Fed. taking money from trade. So where do the state and local .govs get their funding?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Ok so someone help me out... your position is NO taxes? If that's the case how does the .gov fund anything? From streets, to construction, to employees (RMV, EMS, Fire, Police, Education, etc. etc.).

Is the position more closely that you don't agree how the money is being spent? If that's the case then change the guys who are spending it.

I'm just looking for an alterior method of running the .gov, whether it be a town, county, state, or the Feds. Last I checked, even the "Founding Fathers" weren't against taxes, they were against taxes without having a say where they go.

Please make your position a little clearer if possible.

I am against taxes being taken by force and not paid voluntarily. The founders were not necessarily as I covered before not just against taxation without representation (which we don't get) they were against taxing without consent, they were for government of consent.

The ironic thing is if you were arguing for minarchy and our government was minarchist, anarchy would not be gaining the popularity it is now. It is the statist who are leading to their own downfall.

I can live with a gas tax as a use tax, but even that is too high and mismanaged, my state will tax itself on projects funded by the gas tax up to 50% making the cost of these 1/3 more to commit fraud on it's citizens so they can take more taxes into the general fund that were not approved.

The other problem with your theory of representation, is there is no protection for the minority because it means either the stronger party (not necessarily the majority party) or the majority party wins and that the rest must capitulate to their demands. These are things the constitution were to restrict and why as brought out by WW, taxes were to be by other means than directly upon the people.

Your assumption that because government has pirated so many of the items mentions that these wouldn't occur or would be worse is a false premise. Please read Bastiat's What is seen and what is unseen.

Madison vetoed a roads bill as unconstitutional, he thought it was a good idea but would require a constitutional amendment. Proactive policing to a group of people who just fought a war partly due to the unconstitutional proactive policing of the Crown and his peons the redcoats, would be a repugnant notion. But Dale Brown in Detroit is a shining example where you do not need police paid for by force. 70% of U.S.'s firefighters are volunteer now. Why change that it works great. The government should not be funding construction. I will repeat again though the assumption these would not occur because the government funds much of it now is faulty in logic.

If a government was to exist under natural law, and the theory of justice one may make an argument it exists to 1)protect rights 2) provide defense 3) provide a system for arbitrating disputes (civil and criminal) 4) and my least favorite provide a form of policing to protect our rights. Yet this is rarely the argument put forth by those who worship at the alter of the state. In jingoistic nationalism they put the state above people and create for themselves and force it upon others a top down unnatural system which then provides a rationalization for them to treat others as heretics for not sharing in their city on the hill vision of the state.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
Also, that would be the Fed. taking money from trade. So where do the state and local .govs get their funding?

I'll answer your question with a question, who built the roads and provided the services before they were provided by federal or local govs?

Another question do you think business would not have a vested interest in paying for a way for people to get their goods, for making it safe for people, that individuals wouldn't see a need and donate to charity or to projects being done. In my town the original library was built by Carnegie and maintained by voluntary donations.

The military is an overbloated welfare recipient as it stands now. If we were to get rid of Income taxes, the budget for the feds would be the same as it would be under Clinton if I recall the figures right. Reduce the waste and and bloat, you now have something that wouldn't need to steal a persons life.
 

Primus

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
I am against taxes being taken by force and not paid voluntarily. The founders were not necessarily as I covered before not just against taxation without representation (which we don't get) they were against taxing without consent, they were for government of consent.

We beat the force/voluntary thing to death we will not see eye to eye, so no point in wasting space.

The ironic thing is if you were arguing for minarchy and our government was minarchist, anarchy would not be gaining the popularity it is now. It is the statist who are leading to their own downfall.

I'm not arguing for anything. You keep saying MY represenation or theories. I asked a question for clarification of YOUR stance. This is YOUR thread on how how YOU feel. My only "theory" has been without ANY taxes then the entire country would collapse. No more no less. I never said how much or who should get it or how it should be spent.

I can live with a gas tax as a use tax, but even that is too high and mismanaged, my state will tax itself on projects funded by the gas tax up to 50% making the cost of these 1/3 more to commit fraud on it's citizens so they can take more taxes into the general fund that were not approved.

The other problem with your theory of representation, is there is no protection for the minority because it means either the stronger party (not necessarily the majority party) or the majority party wins and that the rest must capitulate to their demands. These are things the constitution were to restrict and why as brought out by WW, taxes were to be by other means than directly upon the people.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the same system is in place that has been since they scrapped the the Articles of Confederation. This system of representation wasn't just developed last week....was designed and signed into law with all the rest of the things you do like.

Your assumption that because government has pirated so many of the items mentions that these wouldn't occur or would be worse is a false premise. Please read Bastiat's What is seen and what is unseen.

Madison vetoed a roads bill as unconstitutional, he thought it was a good idea but would require a constitutional amendment. Proactive policing to a group of people who just fought a war partly due to the unconstitutional proactive policing of the Crown and his peons the redcoats, would be a repugnant notion. But Dale Brown in Detroit is a shining example where you do not need police paid for by force. 70% of U.S.'s firefighters are volunteer now. Why change that it works great. The government should not be funding construction. I will repeat again though the assumption these would not occur because the government funds much of it now is faulty in logic.

I appreciate you giving a good example as a jumping off point. How do you propose it gets funded then? If an interstate highway needs work, who pays for it? Even if you say the States, well it's still a .gov that has to put out the money. How else do you propose the construciton company gets paid? The .gov is merely the representing body of all (majority) of the people who will use it. Hence, States taxes go to state road projects. I wouldn't expect a guy in Texas to pay for my street. But I don't see a problem with other residents of the city paying for the street with me. Also, Volunteer Fire Fighters still get paid my friend....

If a government was to exist under natural law, and the theory of justice one may make an argument it exists to 1)protect rights 2) provide defense 3) provide a system for arbitrating disputes (civil and criminal) 4) and my least favorite provide a form of policing to protect our rights. Yet this is rarely the argument put forth by those who worship at the alter of the state. In jingoistic nationalism they put the state above people and create for themselves and force it upon others a top down unnatural system which then provides a rationalization for them to treat others as heretics for not sharing in their city on the hill vision of the state.

I've attempted to respond in bold. Not to emphasize or scream, but only to make it easier to read.
 

Primus

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Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
3,939
Location
United States
I'll answer your question with a question, who built the roads and provided the services before they were provided by federal or local govs?

Another question do you think business would not have a vested interest in paying for a way for people to get their goods, for making it safe for people, that individuals wouldn't see a need and donate to charity or to projects being done. In my town the original library was built by Carnegie and maintained by voluntary donations.

The military is an overbloated welfare recipient as it stands now. If we were to get rid of Income taxes, the budget for the feds would be the same as it would be under Clinton if I recall the figures right. Reduce the waste and and bloat, you now have something that wouldn't need to steal a persons life.

So you propose the businesses just get together and "donate" to the construction company? If a business decides not to, do they not get to use the road? If they decide to pay less, are they restricted on when they can use it? Who negotiates the contracts? 45 different businesses? Isn't the .gov just the representative of said businesses and bargains for them and collects and gives the money to the contractor?
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
So you propose the businesses just get together and "donate" to the construction company? If a business decides not to, do they not get to use the road? If they decide to pay less, are they restricted on when they can use it? Who negotiates the contracts? 45 different businesses? Isn't the .gov just the representative of said businesses and bargains for them and collects and gives the money to the contractor?

Did you know that Walmart and other companies build public access roads all the time. Every time Walmart builds a new store roads are upgraded or built, on Walmart's pocket book. And it is not just stores, every industry pays either impact fees or pays for projects in place of them. Businesses have even built daycare centers and other projects not even related to the business.
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
My family owns land which is only accessible via a road that is privately owned, and is actually split across property lines. All of the road is on private property, but property line runs down the center of the road. There is also 3rd party property further down the road which is only accessible via this road. There are also entire towns in the US which are completely privately owned, including the roads. The feasibility of privately owned roads is not really debatable in today's world.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Please cite bolded.

I'm under the impression that there already is import and export taxes, but it's not enough to fund just the military never mind anything else. For example, this chart says 1.25 % of Revenue. I understand it's not in dollar amount, but I'm pretty certain 1% isn't enough to fund the Military. So where do you get the rest of the money?

http://www.orkii.com/united-states/government-taxes-on-international-trade-percent-of-revenue

It is pretty easy to cite. The federal government was ceded 18 specific powers by the States and the People in the Constitution that created it. Furthermore, the Constitution explicitly states that powers not granted the feds or prohibited the States are retained by the States and the People. Therefore the feds can constitutionally only do what the Constitution says they may do--and no more. They do many things NOT in the Constitution.

QED.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

WalkingWolf

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Messages
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North Carolina
I believe Nixon at one time put a 10% import tax on China during his term. Just think how much revenue that would bring today.

Eye my mistake, I thought everybody knew that the country was run on revenue from tariffs up until the 19th century. I would have primus would know this also.

I believe it was the Tariff Act of 1789. I wonder if he knows we did not have a income tax until 1913.
 
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Primus

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I appreciate all the examples of private roads, but it doesn't really answer my question. My question was about PUBLIC roads. So if you own a private road... it isn't public. Meaning you can keep me off of it.

Now Wal-Mart may CHOOSE to put money into a road, its a choice that they feel will benefit them. As I said before, if the other businesses don't choose that what do you do?

Better yet, when the road gets crappy and needs to be repaved, who decides that? Do all the businesses hold a town meeting and vote on what needs to be repaired? Sounds awful like a .gov....

This actually ties into OCDO... so if I own a road in front of my house, I repair it, I pay for it. Can I post it as a Gun Free zone? Since it's private? Can I make my street a gun free zone, but then you make yours a pro gun zone, but the one in the middle might be something else? Please tell me you guys are getting what I'm saying.

Again, no one has given me an ALTERNATIVE. That's all I'm looking for and am open to it.
 

Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
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I believe Nixon at one time put a 10% import tax on China during his term. Just think how much revenue that would bring today.

Eye my mistake, I thought everybody knew that the country was run on revenue from tariffs up until the 19th century. I would have primus would know this also.

I believe it was the Tariff Act of 1789. I wonder if he knows we did not have a income tax until 1913.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011...-of-americans-personal-spending-goes-to-china

This says that less then 3 percent of Personal spending goes to China. So if you took 10% of 3% would that be alot? I don't think so...
 

Primus

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Messages
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It is pretty easy to cite. The federal government was ceded 18 specific powers by the States and the People in the Constitution that created it. Furthermore, the Constitution explicitly states that powers not granted the feds or prohibited the States are retained by the States and the People. Therefore the feds can constitutionally only do what the Constitution says they may do--and no more. They do many things NOT in the Constitution.

QED.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Ok, so then that means that the local .govs can control the construction? Since that power would be retained by the state and the people in it? I agree with this point, but it's still a .gov that is involved and needs the money to do it.
 

WalkingWolf

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Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Ok, so then that means that the local .govs can control the construction? Since that power would be retained by the state and the people in it? I agree with this point, but it's still a .gov that is involved and needs the money to do it.

Duhhhh~~gov already controls construction with fees and regulation.:uhoh:
 

Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
Messages
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My family owns land which is only accessible via a road that is privately owned, and is actually split across property lines. All of the road is on private property, but property line runs down the center of the road. There is also 3rd party property further down the road which is only accessible via this road. There are also entire towns in the US which are completely privately owned, including the roads. The feasibility of privately owned roads is not really debatable in today's world.

Please cite. I looked into it and the towns I found were just a big piece of land with buildings on it. No residents. So like a wild west stage town. Please cite an Active town that actually has residents that live there and work there, that is completely private, including the roads.
 
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