18yo CPL carry INTRODUCED!

[kschmadeka]

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Gray Peterson wrote:

Speaking of which, anyone up for a trip to the State Legislative Archives? I need to do a little research on the upping of the age from 21 to 18 and back up again.

I might be going down this week sometime. Got asked to do some testifying. What is it you're looking to research? I wasn't aware of it being 18 previously.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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If I recall correctly on my previous searching of the law, either the law was originally 18, and then moved up to 21 in the 1980's, or it was 21 until the early 1970's, reduced to 18 when the drinking age and stuff was moved down to 18, and then raised up to 21 again in the mid 80's.

What are you testifying on?

 

[kschmadeka]

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Two of Val Stevens's bills are supposed to be heard, the Firearms Freedom Act and Right To Protection bills. Nothing on the legislative website yet though. Could be just a token hearing Kline is giving her so we can't say nothing of ours got heard, but don't know yet.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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Gray Peterson wrote:

If I recall correctly on my previous searching of the law, either the law was originally 18, and then moved up to 21 in the 1980's, or it was 21 until the early 1970's, reduced to 18 when the drinking age and stuff was moved down to 18, and then raised up to 21 again in the mid 80's.

What are you testifying on?

I remember my freind getting his Concealed weapons permit before he was 21 and it was around the mid '80's . But I thought I was mistaken, I could still be.

And him having his weapon stopped what could have been a very volatile situation.

 

[kschmadeka]

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

I remember my freind getting his Concealed weapons permit before he was 21 and it was around the mid '80's . But I thought I was mistaken, I could still be.

And him having his weapon stopped what could have been a very volatile situation.

Are you still in touch with this friend? Stories like this are helpful, even if they're from the eighties. This was in Washington, right?

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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kschmadeka wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

I remember my freind getting his Concealed weapons permit before he was 21 and it was around the mid '80's . But I thought I was mistaken, I could still be.

And him having his weapon stopped what could have been a very volatile situation.

Are you still in touch with this friend? Stories like this are helpful, even if they're from the eighties. This was in Washington, right?

No he moved to Canada.:banghead::banghead::banghead:
He actually called a couple of years ago.
Like I said I might be mistaken about his age. He is a few years older than me but I don't think he was 21 yet at the time.

And I was there when he pulled the gun out, a guy on a golf course was angry my buddies were playing slow, (in Oak Harbor) and he wouldn't play through, he grabbed a club and menacingly headed toward us. My friend pulled his little .25 (I think) out and said when they guy was fairly close, "you take another step and I will consider it self defense".

The man and his clan left. Golf suddenly didn't seem that important to him anymore.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=6850

According to this it looks like the age was 21 in 1983. It was then 9.41.070 (b).

I read an article in my search by Cramer for shotgun news that stated that in 1961 if you could legally possess a firearm you could get a concealed permit.

Feel free to contradict me or dissect this. I am still searching.

It doesn't seem to have an age requirement here.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/Opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=8846

Hmmm and shows The attorney's belief that the second ammendment applies even within the states, interesting.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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sudden valley gunner wrote:

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=6850

According to this it looks like the age was 21 in 1983. It was then 9.41.070 (b).

I read an article in my search by Cramer for shotgun news that stated that in 1961 if you could legally possess a firearm you could get a concealed permit.

Feel free to contradict me or dissect this. I am still searching.

It doesn't seem to have an age requirement here.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/Opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=8846

Hmmm and shows The attorney's belief that the second ammendment applies even within the states, interesting.

Doing my own research, I was able to narrow down a few factors to this 18-21 situation.

First, RCW 9.41.240 was changed in 1994 significantly. In that law, the language seemed to apply that to anyone under 16, and then it got changed to 18-21 year olds by the "Youth Violence Prevention Act of 1994", which also put in the case and carry law (which was later repealed).

This session law was 1994 Special Session Law Chapter 7. That was the most significant rewrite of the criminal law in Washington in over 25 years.

So we know that open carry by 18-21 year olds was possible until 1994. it was 21 for getting a CPL as of 1983, which means the law likely changed beforehand.

In the Washington Legislative RCW's section, there is a guide at the bottom of each statute of every session law which touched the RCW.

 

[gogodawgs]

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Gray,

I would be interested in helping you research this information. I studied Constitutional Law in college, I might be a bit rusty but would enjoy the challenge.

 

[OrangeIsTrouble]

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Well, I'll just stick to targeting young adults for exposure of the bill since I am no researcher.

 

[gogodawgs]

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Poo,

Stop into Staples again soon....

 

[OrangeIsTrouble]

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Haven't gone anyway close down there that's why I haven't stopped there. Usually I just troll around tukwila and seattle. But I will make sure to swoop by.

 

[Ajetpilot]

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Is that the one at 33320 9th Ave S Ste 210, Federal Way?

 

[gogodawgs]

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there is no staples in Fdub

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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Gray Peterson wrote:

sudden valley gunner wrote:

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=6850

According to this it looks like the age was 21 in 1983. It was then 9.41.070 (b).

I read an article in my search by Cramer for shotgun news that stated that in 1961 if you could legally possess a firearm you could get a concealed permit.

Feel free to contradict me or dissect this. I am still searching.

It doesn't seem to have an age requirement here.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/Opinion.aspx?section=archive&id=8846

Hmmm and shows The attorney's belief that the second ammendment applies even within the states, interesting.

Doing my own research, I was able to narrow down a few factors to this 18-21 situation.

First, RCW 9.41.240 was changed in 1994 significantly. In that law, the language seemed to apply that to anyone under 16, and then it got changed to 18-21 year olds by the "Youth Violence Prevention Act of 1994", which also put in the case and carry law (which was later repealed).

This session law was 1994 Special Session Law Chapter 7. That was the most significant rewrite of the criminal law in Washington in over 25 years.

So we know that open carry by 18-21 year olds was possible until 1994. it was 21 for getting a CPL as of 1983, which means the law likely changed beforehand.

In the Washington Legislative RCW's section, there is a guide at the bottom of each statute of every session law which touched the RCW.

I remember seeing my friends CPL, maybe he wasn't truthful getting according to the AG opinion you did not have to produce I.D. etc. to get your permit. Or the time frame. But bringing back open carry isn't that bad of an idea either.

I'll let you and Gogodawgs do the research you folks seem to be more fruitful/have the knowledge of what to look for too. It was fun reading a bunch of cases though.

 

[kschmadeka]

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Knowing exactly when the age limits for oc/cc went up to 21, what prompted it and who was behind it is what could prove useful.

Something else that would help would be self-defense stories involving young adultsfrom the states with 18 y/o cc now.

And one other thing we could use, the number of murders committed by 18-20 year olds was brought up, but not the number of victims who were also 18-20. (Most killers kill within their own social group.) As with every other case, the disarmament lawsdon't seem to bestopping the killers from being armed, only the victims.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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kschmadeka wrote:

Knowing exactly when the age limits for oc/cc went up to 21, what prompted it and who was behind it is what could prove useful.

Something else that would help would be self-defense stories involving young adultsfrom the states with 18 y/o cc now.

And one other thing we could use, the number of murders committed by 18-20 year olds was brought up, but not the number of victims who were also 18-20. (Most killers kill within their own social group.) As with every other case, the disarmament lawsdon't seem to bestopping the killers from being armed, only the victims.

I gathered from my research that it was the bills introduced in '94 but that was only by context clues in things dealing with other cases.

It seems like Gray might have been more successful. I got tired of looking but I finally found a short cut, Kinda was typing in years and reading the state AG letters to questions posed about firearms.

That is how I concluded that it seemed that any one legal enough to own a gun cold get a permit in the '60's. There is no age requirement on the Shall issue orders in the RCW. And owning a gun was legal under 21, it looked like to 16, but I may be wrong on that. That all seemed to change around '83 and again '95 but the laws were passed in '94. With my limited legal knowledge I don't want to make to much speculation especially without copies of the full RCW's of those time eras.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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I went to the Snohomish County Law Library and went all the way back to 1971's session laws. In 1971, the license went from a 1 year license to a 2 year license. At that point, besides what was then RCW 9.41.240 (which prohibited under 14 year olds from carrying outside of the home), there was no age restriction in the law. If you wanted to get technical, a 16 year old could have walked into a police station and applied for a license under the state statute.

This isn't to say this was the reality on the ground, as I'm sure some police agencies which have just flat out refused to issue the license, or contact the parents somehow and let them know what's going on, and they could have put a stop to it if they chose to.

Also, in 1982, students were prohibited for possessing firearms on school property under state statute, period under RCW 9.41.280.

In 1983, the law was rewritten pretty significantly. The first weaker version of our preemption statute passed that year in separate legislation, and they added the 21 age limit into RCW 9.41.070 with a pretty significant rewrite of the statute, plus changing the license from 2 to 4 years. The licenses passed beforehand were valid, so those licenses issued to under 21's would have been valid until mid-1985, when the new preemption statute took hold. I am not sure if there were any local statutes prohibiting 18-21 year olds from possessing firearms.

Something I also found out after posting all of this:


RCW 9.41.080
Delivery to ineligible persons.


No person may deliver a firearm to any person whom he or she has reasonable cause to believe is ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm. Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony, punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

Apparently, pre-1994, it was worded differently. See this AG opinion:

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/opinion.aspx?section=topic&id=8528

We note, however, that there are significant statutory limitations upon the sale to and use by minors of firearms. For example, RCW 9.41.240 limits the circumstances under which minors under the age of fourteen may have possession and use of any firearm. Also, RCW 9.41.080 prohibits delivery of a pistol to anyone under the age of twenty-one. Finally, RCW 9.41.070(1)(b) specifically prohibits the issuance of a concealed weapon permit to a person under the age of twenty-one. [[Orig. Op. Page 5]]

So before, you couldn't give a person a pistol under the age of 21. Not sure if there was any exemptions for gifts from family members or anything like that in the statute. I can't believe I missed it at the beginning or in the law library, or I would have had the exact wording. If you were 18 and moved into the state, though, since that's not a "delivery to someone", it would be legal.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

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Gray Peterson wrote:

In 1983, the law was rewritten pretty significantly. The first weaker version of our preemption statute passed that year in separate legislation, and they added the 21 age limit into RCW 9.41.070 with a pretty significant rewrite of the statute, plus changing the license from 2 to 4 years. The licenses passed beforehand were valid, so those licenses issued to under 21's would have been valid until mid-1985, when the new preemption statute took hold. I am not sure if there were any local statutes prohibiting 18-21 year olds from possessing firearms.

Something I also found out after posting all of this:


RCW 9.41.080
Delivery to ineligible persons.


No person may deliver a firearm to any person whom he or she has reasonable cause to believe is ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm. Any person violating this section is guilty of a class C felony, punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

Apparently, pre-1994, it was worded differently. See this AG opinion:

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/opinion.aspx?section=topic&id=8528

We note, however, that there are significant statutory limitations upon the sale to and use by minors of firearms. For example, RCW 9.41.240 limits the circumstances under which minors under the age of fourteen may have possession and use of any firearm. Also, RCW 9.41.080 prohibits delivery of a pistol to anyone under the age of twenty-one. Finally, RCW 9.41.070(1)(b) specifically prohibits the issuance of a concealed weapon permit to a person under the age of twenty-one. [[Orig. Op. Page 5]]

So before, you couldn't give a person a pistol under the age of 21. Not sure if there was any exemptions for gifts from family members or anything like that in the statute. I can't believe I missed it at the beginning or in the law library, or I would have had the exact wording. If you were 18 and moved into the state, though, since that's not a "delivery to someone", it would be legal.

My friend must have fell into this highlighted catagory.

The linked AG opinion was in '87 wonder if his cite was an '83 RCW that changed in '94. The non delivery to under 21, maybe a obscure RCW that was to conflicted with the rest, or thought to be to overboard.

Some good work there Holmes. :lol:

 

[Gray Peterson]

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Ok, does anyone here have a copy of Chapter 9 of the RCW's from 1993? Can anyone go to a law library and find it, and print out a copy and then scan it in?

King and Snohomish have law libraries in their courthouses, and there's also the state archives in Olympia. I believe they are open until 4:30 or 5.