2 young local cops just CONFISCATED my revolver...

[WalkingWolf]

That's why you NEVER let cops touch your gun.

Wonder how expensive the airline pilots holsters are? See police approaching put padlock on holster, they then need a warrant to get the gun from the holster.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

Wonder how expensive the airline pilots holsters are? See police approaching put padlock on holster, they then need a warrant to get the gun from the holster.

http://www.lapolicegear.com/desantis-fdo-holster-wlock.html

52 bucks +-

WW, that is brilliant....I think. You wouldn't need a lock large enough to secure a skid loader, just large enough to close and "secure the weapon". And your assertion that a warrant would be needed to go further seems like sound reasoning. I'd appreciate discussion on this method. Combination lock, of course, because if the "officer" found a key in your possession, he'd have the firearm. I'm trying to think how the cop could compel you to reveal the combination without a warrant. If I figured out a means of securing my belt so that it would require cutting my belt off to get at the firearm.....

I would think I'd need to be formally arrested before they could legally remove my weapon.

 

[WalkingWolf]

View attachment 9505

WW, that is brilliant....I think. You wouldn't need a lock large enough to secure a skid loader, just large enough to close and "secure the weapon". And your assertion that a warrant would be needed to go further seems like sound reasoning. I'd appreciate discussion on this method. Combination lock, of course, because if the "officer" found a key in your possession, he'd have the firearm. I'm trying to think how the cop could compel you to reveal the combination without a warrant. If I figured out a means of securing my belt so that it would require cutting my belt off to get at the firearm.....

I would think I'd need to be formally arrested before they could legally remove my weapon.

Well considering the gun is not accessible the officer safety excuse is right out the window. There would be no reason to remove belt unless the person was under arrest.

 

[Citizen]

The open carry version of a "chastity belt".

Not going to say anything so as to avoid angering a certain moderator who's shown a willingness to lock a thread when he gets angry at one poster and prevents the rest from continuing their own conversation.

 

[WalkingWolf]

The open carry version of a "chastity belt".

That's one way to look at it. I am not sure it is such a good idea for pilots though. A terrorist is banging on the cockpit door and the pilot is frantically trying to unlock his holster.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

That's one way to look at it. I am not sure it is such a good idea for pilots though. A terrorist is banging on the cockpit door and the pilot is frantically trying to unlock his holster.

I'm thinking of throwing a small lock in my pocket, and applying it to the holster if police trouble approaches. Doing so in a manner that doesn't get me gunned down might be worth working out. I'd think a half turn away from inquiring eyes and a discreet application of the lock.....I need to get eyes on a pilots holster and see what needs to be modified to make this work without giving up my broke in and comfortable holsters. New holsters suck.

ETA: I contend this is ON TOPIC, as it involves devising means of avoiding the situation the OP got into, having your weapon illegally removed and confiscated with little effort. If your firearm gets cut off you without cause, I'd think it would enhance your position that wrongdoing took place against you.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

I see two problems with the lock on the holster idea.

1. Cop sees your hands nearing your holster (assuming the lock is not in place prior to his approach, which, honestly, why would it be?) and shoots you.

2. Locking the gun into the holster may prevent the police from running the S/N, but the holster may still be removed from your belt. They've still seized your weapon, and police have done weirder things than buying bolt cutters...

 

[Citizen]

I'm thinking of throwing a small lock in my pocket, and applying it to the holster if police trouble approaches. Doing so in a manner that doesn't get me gunned down might be worth working out. I'd think a half turn away from inquiring eyes and a discreet application of the lock.....I need to get eyes on a pilots holster and see what needs to be modified to make this work without giving up my broke in and comfortable holsters. New holsters suck.

ETA: I contend this is ON TOPIC, as it involves devising means of avoiding the situation the OP got into, having your weapon illegally removed and confiscated with little effort. If your firearm gets cut off you without cause, I'd think it would enhance your position that wrongdoing took place against you.

You will want to give consideration also to something else.

The OPer had his gun seized during a traffic stop. You should see how many appellate cases include "furtive movements" during a traffic stop. I'm betting all that lock-and-holster manipulation causes the cop to gleefully think, "Great! Some 'furtive movements'. Now, I got reason to remove him from the car and search the car. He was prolly trying to hide either a weapon or drugs. Yahoo! Easy car seach, coming right up!"

 

[bushwacker]

probably gonna catch hell here for saying this but for what its worth here we go the first thing that I do is ask what seems to be the problem officer (establish the reason for the stop) but when asked to get out I always leave my gun in the car..(put it away before stopping but be cool with the away you move don't want to alarm anyone)when I get out I always lock my door and close it right behind me,don't let them get the chance to get between you and open door they may state that as consest. never consent to search. never had a problem with this tatic except once, they tried to play the waiting game ..didn't work cause like I told them , i got all weekend and this is only friday after around 45 minutes they let me go cause the drug dog was too busy or high to come out. humm drug dog for traffic stop.. anyway ...45 minute wait and free to go with my gun in car.but if I told them that i was in a hurry they would have played the waiting game longer. so maybe the place where you got the gun still has record of the sale mite get proof there if so then you mite want to go back to the station and report it stolen cause the ones that took it didn't have proof that it wasn't yours which is their burden

 

[WalkingWolf]

You will want to give consideration also to something else.

The OPer had his gun seized during a traffic stop. You should see how many appellate cases include "furtive movements" during a traffic stop. I'm betting all that lock-and-holster manipulation causes the cop to gleefully think, "Great! Some 'furtive movements'. Now, I got reason to remove him from the car and search the car. He was prolly trying to hide either a weapon or drugs. Yahoo! Easy car seach, coming right up!"

Wow those cops in your area must have superman vision that they can see small movements through a trunk, back seat, and the front seat. The above is just silly. Others have had this discussion, not only can movements such as unbuckling a seat belt, putting a car in neutral, reaching for the dome light switch NOT be seen from a moving patrol car, they would not lend RAS to a search. If you have cites other than TV shows, I would be happy to see them.

 

[Citizen]

Wow those cops in your area must have superman vision that they can see small movements through a trunk, back seat, and the front seat. The above is just silly. Others have had this discussion, not only can movements such as unbuckling a seat belt, putting a car in neutral, reaching for the dome light switch NOT be seen from a moving patrol car, they would not lend RAS to a search. If you have cites other than TV shows, I would be happy to see them.

OK. Wanna be combative? Fine. I'll be combative.

Cites, yeah. Just spend some time reading the case quotes and summaries at John Wesley Hall's Fourth Amendment dot com.

I doubt the cops have x-ray vision. We're talking here about when you're stopped and the cop is about to get out of his car the first time or is walking towards you. But, I like how you limit it to a moving patrol car. Like an OCer is gonna try to put a lock on his holster while he's driving but sees the cop car behind him or do a U-turn to come after him.

And, we're talking about motions that could involve hiding contraband or a weapon, not turning on a dome light. Nice misdirection, buster.

I'm betting they see the shoulder and upper arm motions.

And, I wasn't talking about probable cause for a search Mr. Deep Thinker. I was talking about furtive movements for hiding a weapon which opens the door to an officer safety search which becomes a pretext for plain view discovery of any contraband. I'm sorry, I guess I should have realized you wouldn't be able to string together that logic.

And, guess what, Mr. Know it all, what do you think can happen when Mr. Eager-to-Search Cop discovers or is told about the locked gun? Ever read Michigan vs Long about where in a car a cop can search for weapons for officer safety? Oh, but he already found the gun? Wrong. All he has to do is think or ask the magic question, "Are there any other weapons in the car?" Wanta place bets whether a court will gig him for searching for a second weapon? Its little different from the cop who finds a gun hidden in a belt during a Terry pat-down, and continues frisking for the knife in the boot.

And, best of all, was your complete idiocy in thinking I was talking about the law. I was talking about what a cop might be thinking and how he can use loopholes in the case law. Go pound sand for cite demand; I wasn't making any declarations of law.

Yeah, abuse of loopholes. You report a dome light not being RAS; you're right its not. Would you believe that a court actually had to rule that reaching to the console for a license and registration is not a furtive gesture? You can find it at Fourth Amendment dot com; it was posted just in the last couple days. A court actually had to tell the damn police that. So, no, cops don't have to be superman with x-ray vision; they just need a dollop of willingness to twist the case law.

Nice try, Mr. Argumentative.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

You will want to give consideration also to something else.

The OPer had his gun seized during a traffic stop. You should see how many appellate cases include "furtive movements" during a traffic stop. I'm betting all that lock-and-holster manipulation causes the cop to gleefully think, "Great! Some 'furtive movements'. Now, I got reason to remove him from the car and search the car. He was prolly trying to hide either a weapon or drugs. Yahoo! Easy car seach, coming right up!"

I think I covered that in the admission

SNIP~
"Doing so in a manner that doesn't get me gunned down might be worth working out. I'd think a half turn away from inquiring eyes and a discreet application of the lock.....I need to get eyes on a pilots holster and see what needs to be modified to make this work without giving up my broke in and comfortable holsters."

I'm not roping a calf here, I'm slipping a small lock through a hole and snapping it shut. Discreetly remove the locking hand in a manner that is non threatening. I'm rarely in a situation I am sneaked up on. I'm usually aware of my surroundings, and can't recall the last time a cop surprised me in a situation that mattered. It wouldn't work if the cop was on you, but if you were aware of their presence, and the likelihood of an encounter, it might improve my chances of retaining my weapon, or improve my path of pursing an abuse of authority. Maybe not. Maybe it's just inviting trouble. Resistance can be fatal. Outwitting seems to be the remaining avenue when dealing with police and retaining my property. Maybe this isn't it. Please don't banish me for trying.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

OK. Wanna be combative? Fine. I'll be combative.

Cites, yeah. Just spend some time reading the case quotes and summaries at John Wesley Hall's Fourth Amendment dot com.

I doubt the cops have x-ray vision. We're talking here about when you're stopped and the cop is about to get out of his car the first time or is walking towards you. But, I like how you limit it to a moving patrol car. Like an OCer is gonna try to put a lock on his holster while he's driving but sees the cop car behind him or do a U-turn to come after him.

And, we're talking about motions that could involve hiding contraband or a weapon, not turning on a dome light. Nice misdirection, buster.

I'm betting they see the shoulder and upper arm motions.

And, I wasn't talking about probable cause for a search Mr. Deep Thinker. I was talking about furtive movements for hiding a weapon which opens the door to an officer safety search which becomes a pretext for plain view discovery of any contraband. I'm sorry, I guess I should have realized you wouldn't be able to string together that logic.

And, guess what, Mr. Know it all, what do you think can happen when Mr. Eager-to-Search Cop discovers or is told about the locked gun? Ever read Michigan vs Long about where in a car a cop can search for weapons for officer safety? Oh, but he already found the gun? Wrong. All he has to do is think or ask the magic question, "Are there any other weapons in the car?" Wanta place bets whether a court will gig him for searching for a second weapon? Its little different from the cop who finds a gun hidden in a belt during a Terry pat-down, and continues frisking for the knife in the boot.

And, best of all, was your complete idiocy in thinking I was talking about the law. I was talking about what a cop might be thinking and how he can use loopholes in the case law. Go pound sand for cite demand; I wasn't making any declarations of law.

Yeah, abuse of loopholes. You report a dome light not being RAS; you're right its not. Would you believe that a court actually had to rule that reaching to the console for a license and registration is not a furtive gesture? You can find it at Fourth Amendment dot com; it was posted just in the last couple days. A court actually had to tell the damn police that. So, no, cops don't have to be superman with x-ray vision; they just need a dollop of willingness to twist the case law.

Nice try, Mr. Argumentative.

You've made your point. I withdraw the suggestion that this was brilliant, and the moronic idea this may possibly be a means of retaining my weapon from a rogue police officer, or help in establishing an abuse of authority.

 

[Citizen]

You've made your point. I withdraw the suggestion that this was brilliant, and the moronic idea this may possibly be a means of retaining my weapon from a rogue police officer, or help in establishing an abuse of authority.

As long as we understand I wasn't attacking you, but the other guy.

Also, just to think further for any who may still be considering a locking holster, I'm not sure how discreet one can really be, if right-handed, about locking a gun in a holster with a seat-belt in the way. Or, even lets say the holstered gun is on the passenger seat, or in a holster hot-glued to the transmission hump. First a fella has to reach for the lock where ever that is, then he has to move the lock to the holster, then he has to fish the lock shackle through the hole.

Now all this furtive gesture discussion has me wondering whether there is any case law on cops calling for a drug-sniffing dog because of furtive gestures. I think I recall that courts have ruled that a dog-sniff is not a search requiring probable cause or warrant, and that as long as the wait for the dog does not unreasonably prolong the stop it does not violate the 4A. Of course, this may all be federal circuit and state court stuff, meaning it may or may not apply in any given jurisdiction even if I am recalling correctly, so don't get too worried just yet. I'm betting the cop might be able to call in a drug dog if he sees furtive movement on the pretext of possibly hiding contraband. If I'm right, that opens the door to false-alerts from the dog which get your car searched--they don't know it was a false alert until after the search that finds nothing. Hmmmmm. I'm curious now. I think I'll have to read more on this, see what I can find.

 

[WalkingWolf]

As long as we understand I wasn't attacking you, but the other guy.

Also, just to think further for any who may still be considering a locking holster, I'm not sure how discreet one can really be, if right-handed, about locking a gun in a holster with a seat-belt in the way. Or, even lets say the holstered gun is on the passenger seat, or in a holster hot-glued to the transmission hump. First a fella has to reach for the lock where ever that is, then he has to move the lock to the holster, then he has to fish the lock shackle through the hole.

So this is a personal thing with you. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I guess some people never learned to chew gum, and walk. :lol:

 

[FordDave]

According to NRAILA.org

QUICK REFERENCE CHART

Rifles and Shotguns Handguns
Permit to Purchase No No
Registration of Firearms No No
Licensing of Owners No No
Permit to Carry No Yes

This is a synopsis as of Feb 2010. I havent been able to keep up to see if its changed.

 

[FordDave]

Link

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/articles/2010/compendium-of-state-firearms-laws.aspx

 

[FordDave]

Updated link

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/pennsylvania.aspx