lil_freak_66
Regular Member
imported post
that looks strikingly similar to a ruger 10/22
that looks strikingly similar to a ruger 10/22
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.22LR For SD??
- Thread starter American Boy With a Gun
- Start date
Wglide90
Regular Member
imported post
OK, I'm gonna get drawn into this one only to dispel anyone's notion that the 22lr should be recommended for SD. Maybe a boot back up or something but never recommend for your primary.
AMBOY, I'm sure you read your long threat just a while ago where everyone here chimed in on what caliber and bullet was the best. I know you know no one mentioned the 22lr. We all talked about energy, penetration, expansionand all the factors of powerful enough rounds. 22lr ain't it.
I see things from the failure mode perspective, not from the perspective that if it worked once for someone in some circumstance that it's OK. Try checking on how many tales of how the 22lr had failed. Failure mode perspective says to me if it fails once I need to know why anfd fix it. Carry rounds proven to protect. Do 9s, 40s,45s and so one have failure modes as well sure but no on the scale of the 22lr in SD mode.
I don't think anyone here in SD can guarantee a perfect shot to make the 22lr work. In SD you are not even thinking, you're not aiming, you just react to being attacked and if you shoot it is reactionary with no precision that you would require to guarantee a SD kill. Sure you can train and train and traina nd be the best, but you just can't guarantee the great shots, check all the LEO stories of all the misses. The hits you get need to do as much destruction as possible.
I just can't advocate using22lr for SD. Hey if that's all there is.... work on getting something better asap.
OK, I'm gonna get drawn into this one only to dispel anyone's notion that the 22lr should be recommended for SD. Maybe a boot back up or something but never recommend for your primary.
AMBOY, I'm sure you read your long threat just a while ago where everyone here chimed in on what caliber and bullet was the best. I know you know no one mentioned the 22lr. We all talked about energy, penetration, expansionand all the factors of powerful enough rounds. 22lr ain't it.
I see things from the failure mode perspective, not from the perspective that if it worked once for someone in some circumstance that it's OK. Try checking on how many tales of how the 22lr had failed. Failure mode perspective says to me if it fails once I need to know why anfd fix it. Carry rounds proven to protect. Do 9s, 40s,45s and so one have failure modes as well sure but no on the scale of the 22lr in SD mode.
I don't think anyone here in SD can guarantee a perfect shot to make the 22lr work. In SD you are not even thinking, you're not aiming, you just react to being attacked and if you shoot it is reactionary with no precision that you would require to guarantee a SD kill. Sure you can train and train and traina nd be the best, but you just can't guarantee the great shots, check all the LEO stories of all the misses. The hits you get need to do as much destruction as possible.
I just can't advocate using22lr for SD. Hey if that's all there is.... work on getting something better asap.
PDinDetroit
Regular Member
imported post
I have a Browning Buckmark Pistol in .22 LR (Camper Model) that is a blast to shoot and great for practice (cheap too!). I have seen a 9 yo load and fire mag after mag with this type of pistol with little to no trouble. I guess it could be used for SD, but I would not consider it a main carry pistol unless it was all I had. The most effective pistol you have is the one you will carry and can shoot well!
I feel most comfortable with my S&W M&P Full-Size 9mm for daily OC (2 - 17 round mags of Speer GDHP 124 Gr +P). I replaced the standard sear with the Apex Tactical Drop-In Replacement Sear which SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED ACCURACY (down to 4.25 lbs trigger pull, breaks like glass). With this setup, the perceived recoil feels very similar to the Browning Buckmark Pistol. I like the 9mm as ammo would be available in SHTF (military-type round, although 9 mm NATO is closer to 9 mm +P).
I also carry my S&W M&P 9c for daily CC (2 - 12 round mags of Winchester PDX1 JHP 124 Gr +P). I will also carry my S&W M&P 45 for OC from time to time, although I keep it more for home protection. Both of these are setup with the same replacement sear, which has increased accuracy. All of these pistols fit my Serpa and Fobus holsters, although I need to invest in a mag holster and maybe a left-handed holster to carry one of these as a BUG.
Out in the MI Woods, I feel most comfortable with my Ruger GP100 in .357 mag (Speer GDHP 158 Gr).
Variety is the spice of life! Thank God for calibers of all sizes!
I have a Browning Buckmark Pistol in .22 LR (Camper Model) that is a blast to shoot and great for practice (cheap too!). I have seen a 9 yo load and fire mag after mag with this type of pistol with little to no trouble. I guess it could be used for SD, but I would not consider it a main carry pistol unless it was all I had. The most effective pistol you have is the one you will carry and can shoot well!
I feel most comfortable with my S&W M&P Full-Size 9mm for daily OC (2 - 17 round mags of Speer GDHP 124 Gr +P). I replaced the standard sear with the Apex Tactical Drop-In Replacement Sear which SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED ACCURACY (down to 4.25 lbs trigger pull, breaks like glass). With this setup, the perceived recoil feels very similar to the Browning Buckmark Pistol. I like the 9mm as ammo would be available in SHTF (military-type round, although 9 mm NATO is closer to 9 mm +P).
I also carry my S&W M&P 9c for daily CC (2 - 12 round mags of Winchester PDX1 JHP 124 Gr +P). I will also carry my S&W M&P 45 for OC from time to time, although I keep it more for home protection. Both of these are setup with the same replacement sear, which has increased accuracy. All of these pistols fit my Serpa and Fobus holsters, although I need to invest in a mag holster and maybe a left-handed holster to carry one of these as a BUG.
Out in the MI Woods, I feel most comfortable with my Ruger GP100 in .357 mag (Speer GDHP 158 Gr).
Variety is the spice of life! Thank God for calibers of all sizes!
sevenplusone
Regular Member
imported post
Sure, a .22 will work. That said, itjust does not deliver the level of energy I want in an SD round. For me .38 special or 9mm is the minimum. When you look at the energy, penetration, and expansion numbers .22 is found wanting.
I personally could not find justification for carrying a .22 when there are so many other better options out there.
Sure, a .22 will work. That said, itjust does not deliver the level of energy I want in an SD round. For me .38 special or 9mm is the minimum. When you look at the energy, penetration, and expansion numbers .22 is found wanting.
I personally could not find justification for carrying a .22 when there are so many other better options out there.
Glock9mmOldStyle
Campaign Veteran
imported post
A 22lr is a poor choice compared to many but if it is what is available when needed then so be it.
Given the choice between one 45 (235gr) round vs 10x36gr (360gr) 22lr I'll go with the 22lr. Something we also forget is ammo choice their are many fine choices in 22lr. that can increase stopping power. CCI jhp do well and hey when not needed for defense you can bag a rabbit or a squirrel and feed yourself
I've tried that with a 45 (yuck) very messy:shock:
A 22lr is a poor choice compared to many but if it is what is available when needed then so be it.
Given the choice between one 45 (235gr) round vs 10x36gr (360gr) 22lr I'll go with the 22lr. Something we also forget is ammo choice their are many fine choices in 22lr. that can increase stopping power. CCI jhp do well and hey when not needed for defense you can bag a rabbit or a squirrel and feed yourself
I've tried that with a 45 (yuck) very messy:shock:choover
Regular Member
imported post
Not the best of calibers for SD but I will say I can empty my walther P22 in just a couple seconds and they are all in a fist sized area, would be nasty to have 10 little 22 Mini Mag hollow points in the chest in a heart sized area :lol:
Not the best of calibers for SD but I will say I can empty my walther P22 in just a couple seconds and they are all in a fist sized area, would be nasty to have 10 little 22 Mini Mag hollow points in the chest in a heart sized area :lol:
malignity
Regular Member
imported post
I worked at St. John Main hospital's Emergency Room for 2 years in Detroit, and we got shooting victims nearly every night, sometimes multiple victims.
I can say that .22 rounds are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, and from a medical perspective, I can tell you why.
Their ability to under penetrate. What is this, you might be asking? Case in point, 2 real life scenarios that happened:
.22LR to the eye.
Bullet did not travel through the skull like a normal caliber. It entered the skull, entered the brain, and ricocheted off the back of the skull, re-entering the brain on another separate path, in which it ricocheted at least two to three more times, causing this man's brain to turn into giant swiss cheese.
He was dead on arrival.
Second case:
22LR to the upper chest. Ricocheted off the right clavicle, went diagonally down, through the heart and lower left lung, part of the liver, and exited near the top of the left buttock.
This man was treated in the ER from the OTHER gunshots he received (we did not even notice the .22 bullet hole because it was so small) and came to us alive. He died in surgery, from the .22LR.
That being said:
A .22LR is MUCH more effective than your fist, and/or a legal sized pocket knife. Would I choose it as a primary self defense caliber? Probably not, however, if it was the only recoil that my wife-to-be could only handle and she were to get her CPL, I would rather her have that than nothing at all. Ultimately, we've all agreed at one point in time that shot placement is key, not caliber size. Though in the majority of situations you will probably not be thinking about shot placement as much, I do know from personal experience that they can be effective.
Also, I know this was mentioned before, but check out the .22 Magnum if you're set on .22; especially the Charter Arms Pathfinder. It's a SWEET little revolver, comfortable, and cheap to shoot. A good buddy of mine has one, and I love shooting that little cannon. Not to mention it's small enough to fit in your pocket, and costs around $250.
I worked at St. John Main hospital's Emergency Room for 2 years in Detroit, and we got shooting victims nearly every night, sometimes multiple victims.
I can say that .22 rounds are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, and from a medical perspective, I can tell you why.
Their ability to under penetrate. What is this, you might be asking? Case in point, 2 real life scenarios that happened:
.22LR to the eye.
Bullet did not travel through the skull like a normal caliber. It entered the skull, entered the brain, and ricocheted off the back of the skull, re-entering the brain on another separate path, in which it ricocheted at least two to three more times, causing this man's brain to turn into giant swiss cheese.
He was dead on arrival.
Second case:
22LR to the upper chest. Ricocheted off the right clavicle, went diagonally down, through the heart and lower left lung, part of the liver, and exited near the top of the left buttock.
This man was treated in the ER from the OTHER gunshots he received (we did not even notice the .22 bullet hole because it was so small) and came to us alive. He died in surgery, from the .22LR.
That being said:
A .22LR is MUCH more effective than your fist, and/or a legal sized pocket knife. Would I choose it as a primary self defense caliber? Probably not, however, if it was the only recoil that my wife-to-be could only handle and she were to get her CPL, I would rather her have that than nothing at all. Ultimately, we've all agreed at one point in time that shot placement is key, not caliber size. Though in the majority of situations you will probably not be thinking about shot placement as much, I do know from personal experience that they can be effective.
Also, I know this was mentioned before, but check out the .22 Magnum if you're set on .22; especially the Charter Arms Pathfinder. It's a SWEET little revolver, comfortable, and cheap to shoot. A good buddy of mine has one, and I love shooting that little cannon. Not to mention it's small enough to fit in your pocket, and costs around $250.
ElectricianLU58
Regular Member
imported post
malignity, yuck. a bullet can sure make a mess of the human body.
boy with a gun, while you obviously CAN use a .22lr for self defense, it is pretty underpowered. with so many options to choose from (still in production to long out of production), you could find something a lot more fitting to the job.
while i would say, and a lot of people agree, .38 and 9mm is a good starting point for a defensive handgun.
that having been said, there are a lot of fun handguns that would not make that cut. a seecamp lws in .380 would be a fun gun to have. a walther ppk in .380 would be a nice gun as well.
on top of the handguns still in production, you could look at out of production small handguns. a colt 1908 hammerless pistol in .380 would be a very cool gun (and i bet it would get a lot of attention).
malignity, yuck. a bullet can sure make a mess of the human body.
boy with a gun, while you obviously CAN use a .22lr for self defense, it is pretty underpowered. with so many options to choose from (still in production to long out of production), you could find something a lot more fitting to the job.
while i would say, and a lot of people agree, .38 and 9mm is a good starting point for a defensive handgun.
that having been said, there are a lot of fun handguns that would not make that cut. a seecamp lws in .380 would be a fun gun to have. a walther ppk in .380 would be a nice gun as well.
on top of the handguns still in production, you could look at out of production small handguns. a colt 1908 hammerless pistol in .380 would be a very cool gun (and i bet it would get a lot of attention).
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
While certainly not ideal, I would not feel undergunned with a clean and well oiled Ruger MK 1-3 and 6+ magazines filled with CCI Stingers.
While certainly not ideal, I would not feel undergunned with a clean and well oiled Ruger MK 1-3 and 6+ magazines filled with CCI Stingers.
lil_freak_66
Regular Member
imported post
remember everyone,his poll says CAN a .22LR be used for SD,not SHOULD it be!
i still would reccomend at least 9x19mm though....
remember everyone,his poll says CAN a .22LR be used for SD,not SHOULD it be!
i still would reccomend at least 9x19mm though....
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
lil_freak_66 wrote:
I don't think that's a fair statement. It's extremely broad and non specific andsuch statements tend to be riddled with innaccuracy.An old woman who doesn't like recoil or noise would do very well with a .22, particularly if she learned to fire accurately. She might however flinch badly with a 9mm, and worse yet maybe even hesitate to fire out of fear of recoil and noise. But she also might take a .22 out and shoot 2000 rounds per month and be extremely good at shooting it to the point of reliable fast head shots at 20 yards, making it arguably the perfect gun for her.
Selecting a combat firearm is an extremely individual decision with many individual factors to consider. My preference for 10mm and complete dissatisfaction for anything with less kenetic energy than 45 ACP means little to someone who needs a tiny hideout gun, or someone who can't carry because of laws and has a 12 gauge for HD, or someone with a badly damaged hand who can't handle anythingbeyond a 380 Beretta with one of those oddball top opening barrels.
lil_freak_66 wrote:
I don't think that's a fair statement. It's extremely broad and non specific andsuch statements tend to be riddled with innaccuracy.An old woman who doesn't like recoil or noise would do very well with a .22, particularly if she learned to fire accurately. She might however flinch badly with a 9mm, and worse yet maybe even hesitate to fire out of fear of recoil and noise. But she also might take a .22 out and shoot 2000 rounds per month and be extremely good at shooting it to the point of reliable fast head shots at 20 yards, making it arguably the perfect gun for her.
Selecting a combat firearm is an extremely individual decision with many individual factors to consider. My preference for 10mm and complete dissatisfaction for anything with less kenetic energy than 45 ACP means little to someone who needs a tiny hideout gun, or someone who can't carry because of laws and has a 12 gauge for HD, or someone with a badly damaged hand who can't handle anythingbeyond a 380 Beretta with one of those oddball top opening barrels.
1245A Defender
Regular Member
imported post
lil_freak_66 wrote:
AND he just baught his first and ONLY gun, a glenfield mod 25 22 cal rifle!
22 is the caliber he has for self defence!
a bunch of 22s out of a rifle will mess you up!!
lil_freak_66 wrote:
besides all the caliber questions,, remember ABWG just turned 18!
AND he just baught his first and ONLY gun, a glenfield mod 25 22 cal rifle!
22 is the caliber he has for self defence!
a bunch of 22s out of a rifle will mess you up!!
B
Bikenut
Guest
imported post
I'm going to catch hell for this... but hey, won't be the first time.
All the wonderful graphs and charts with numbers up the wazoo about which caliber has the most velocity, the most "knock down power", the biggest wound channel, don't mean squat. What matters is very simple...
Only holes stop attackers...
Only hits make holes...
Little holes are better than big misses that make no holes....
So..... to make it simple...
If a person is acceptably accurate under stress with a .22 but can't get reliably accurate hits with anything bigger then the .22 is the best choice for them.
Now... take that sentence and instead of where I said .22 insert what ever caliber you wish for a real world practical way of judging which caliber YOU should be using.
I'm going to catch hell for this... but hey, won't be the first time.
All the wonderful graphs and charts with numbers up the wazoo about which caliber has the most velocity, the most "knock down power", the biggest wound channel, don't mean squat. What matters is very simple...
Only holes stop attackers...
Only hits make holes...
Little holes are better than big misses that make no holes....
So..... to make it simple...
If a person is acceptably accurate under stress with a .22 but can't get reliably accurate hits with anything bigger then the .22 is the best choice for them.
Now... take that sentence and instead of where I said .22 insert what ever caliber you wish for a real world practical way of judging which caliber YOU should be using.
coderdude
Regular Member
imported post
I would have to agree with Bikenut. Even though I wouldn't choose a 22, I would definitely recommend it to someone that could not shoot a 9mm accurately.
22 is a favorite of snipers because of its accuracy.
You should just care the biggest caliber that you can successfully save your life with.
I would have to agree with Bikenut. Even though I wouldn't choose a 22, I would definitely recommend it to someone that could not shoot a 9mm accurately.
22 is a favorite of snipers because of its accuracy.
You should just care the biggest caliber that you can successfully save your life with.
SuperSneakySteve
New member
imported post
Hey everyone. First post here. I just wanted to say that a good .22 pistol with CCI Stingers will be able to put a lot of round into a small area very quickly.
There's a lot of cheap crappy .22 ammon on the market so if you want something reliable and powerful go with the Stingers.
Hey everyone. First post here. I just wanted to say that a good .22 pistol with CCI Stingers will be able to put a lot of round into a small area very quickly.
There's a lot of cheap crappy .22 ammon on the market so if you want something reliable and powerful go with the Stingers.
steve
Regular Member
imported post
Use what you can afford, .22 is better than nothing. I carry a walther p22 because it's what I have.
If you really want to go .22 maybe a .22 magnum? Anywho like I said .22 is better than nothing at all.
Use what you can afford, .22 is better than nothing. I carry a walther p22 because it's what I have.
If you really want to go .22 maybe a .22 magnum? Anywho like I said .22 is better than nothing at all.
stainless1911
Banned
imported post
Ive shot a walther, and loved it. My only 2 problems with a .22 is the possibility of winter clothes stopping the rounds, and the feeding of the rounds through the guns themselves. .22s can be a little picky. Other barriers can be an issue too. the last time I was at the pit, I shot the car door inside out with a 10 22, at about 6 feet, twice,and only one of the rounds made a dent in the door.
Ive shot a walther, and loved it. My only 2 problems with a .22 is the possibility of winter clothes stopping the rounds, and the feeding of the rounds through the guns themselves. .22s can be a little picky. Other barriers can be an issue too. the last time I was at the pit, I shot the car door inside out with a 10 22, at about 6 feet, twice,and only one of the rounds made a dent in the door.
Wglide90
Regular Member
imported post
OK, guys. I would hope that some of you guys would get a little more serious about SD. Although I have not ever shot a human and hope never to do, I have hunted and seen animals not drop unless some conditions are met. You have to hit vitals with dilibating force to induce instant knock down results.
Attacking humans will be either moving toward you forcefully or already too close, you need stopping power not bleed out holes. You can not let that METH head get in contact with you, he will hurt you before you can shoot enough 22s in him.
There is absolutely no expert that will advocate 22lr as a realiable SD caliber. All of the support expressed here have flawed justifications due to the context of the situations as compared to SD. None of them are SD situations.
As far as accuracy and the only cal you can handle, I think that you would be shooting at very close range you must be able to hit the target with any reasonable sized cal., will most likely be only a few feet at most.
If 22 is only cal you can handle right now work on 38 or 9mm on guns that are made to reduce recoil and return to target quickly. Gun tech is very good in this area today. You'll get it evetually and will feel much more secure.
There are many revolvers and new gen autos that shoot very softly with more effective loads.
Pleas just don't encourage it's use for SD, and if that is your current cal, think about working on getting somehing more proven.
JMHO, and due diligence to express my concerns.
OK, guys. I would hope that some of you guys would get a little more serious about SD. Although I have not ever shot a human and hope never to do, I have hunted and seen animals not drop unless some conditions are met. You have to hit vitals with dilibating force to induce instant knock down results.
Attacking humans will be either moving toward you forcefully or already too close, you need stopping power not bleed out holes. You can not let that METH head get in contact with you, he will hurt you before you can shoot enough 22s in him.
There is absolutely no expert that will advocate 22lr as a realiable SD caliber. All of the support expressed here have flawed justifications due to the context of the situations as compared to SD. None of them are SD situations.
As far as accuracy and the only cal you can handle, I think that you would be shooting at very close range you must be able to hit the target with any reasonable sized cal., will most likely be only a few feet at most.
If 22 is only cal you can handle right now work on 38 or 9mm on guns that are made to reduce recoil and return to target quickly. Gun tech is very good in this area today. You'll get it evetually and will feel much more secure.
There are many revolvers and new gen autos that shoot very softly with more effective loads.
Pleas just don't encourage it's use for SD, and if that is your current cal, think about working on getting somehing more proven.
JMHO, and due diligence to express my concerns.
marshaul
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Wglide90 wrote:
Wglide90 wrote:
"Stopping power", as differentiated from bleed-out holes, is a myth.
1245A Defender
Regular Member
imported post
you guys are all just dinking around the bush,,, yea thats made up,,
Cause all he has to shoot at the present time is his 22 cal rifle!!
The real and only question is,,, if a bad guy tries to put the hurt on him?
in a self defense situation? should ABWG shoot the bad gut with his
only firearm, his 22 cal rifle????:banghead::banghead::banghead:
now ill answer,, heII yes!!! shoot the bad guy,,, ALOT.
a very many people will stop doing bad things at the mere sight of a gun!!
a very many people will fall over, ready to meet their maker, just cause they have been shot.
im sure ABWG will getting more, and better, and bigger guns in the near future!
you guys are all just dinking around the bush,,, yea thats made up,,
Cause all he has to shoot at the present time is his 22 cal rifle!!
The real and only question is,,, if a bad guy tries to put the hurt on him?
in a self defense situation? should ABWG shoot the bad gut with his
only firearm, his 22 cal rifle????:banghead::banghead::banghead:
now ill answer,, heII yes!!! shoot the bad guy,,, ALOT.
a very many people will stop doing bad things at the mere sight of a gun!!
a very many people will fall over, ready to meet their maker, just cause they have been shot.
im sure ABWG will getting more, and better, and bigger guns in the near future!