.380 FMJ for personal defense?

[stainless1911]

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Shot placement is essential,you may have to pass throughseveral layers of clothing, a windsheild, door, or something the BG has picked up as a sheild, could be a board, backpack, small dog, whatever.

 

[John B]

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I really believe we get hung up on "throw weight" and horsepower here in the US. The standard round for police in most of Europe for almost a hundred years was the 7.65mm, AKA .32acp. For the militarythey use the 9mm. So does our military.The .380 is right between the .32acp and 9mm and is an effective round. As with any round, it's all about hitting the target. I've seen a 350 pound bengal tiger stopped dead by a 22-250.*



*True story; details if interested.

 

[John B]

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I don't have a Laser on my SD gun... butI do on a Walther CP99 BB pistol I practice with. . It's all about pointing.

That's a really great idea! I have a .22 Walther PP for practice and a .380 PPK/S for CC, but the air gun iseven betterfor practice! Thanks! Now I don't have to sound-proof the basement...

 

[Alexcabbie]

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Whatever. I will agree that FMJ is the way to go with a .380 weapon. But I really gotta say, the guys who call .380 a "mouse gun" are wayyy off base. I wouldn't even disparage the .25 as a "mouse gun". These so-called "mouse" calibers are one hell of a lot better than nothing, and they have turmed both two-legged and four-legged rats into fertilizer often and reliably.

It all depends on a number of factors. What you want to carry, how you wnt to carry it, need for deep concealment, etc. go int the mix with "stopping power" etc. A reliable .380 is good for 99.9 % of the situations ayour average schmoe is likely to find himself faced with.

But yes, with .380 and under, FMJ or solid lead is the way to go because in those calibers, the main issue is penetration.

But that is just MY opinion, and I could be wrong.....

 

[John B]

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It is interesting that the French made a sumachine gun in .25ACP that was used in many wars, including Vietnam (though not by us). As for me, I'd rather be hit by a .25 than a .22, but for CC I'd rather have the more dependable center- fire .25.

It's all about shot placement. I am reminded of when the Russian princes gave Rasputin cyanide in his wine and it didn't faze him. They emptied a revolver into him and he was still standing, so they dragged him to the nearby river and held his head under water until he was finally dead. I suspect the princes were not very good marksmen, but I wasn't there...

There are countless war stories of men getting hit by 30-06s and 8mm and still go on shooting; and plenty of stories of people dropping stone dead from a single .22* round. It's very important to hit the right spot. On that subject, a question: why would the solar plexus not be the spot to aim for? Even with a ballistic vest it should incapacitate the person. Or?



*The choice of professional assassins with silencers.

 

[Dreamer]

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Every time I see someone parrot that old saw that you need "12 inches of penetration to be an effective handgun round" I cringe...

In an average, healthy adult male, the CENTER of the heart is less than 5" from the surface of the skin of the chest. Same goes for the lungs, and the intestines. The Liver and pancreas are behind the intestines, so they are a few inches deeper. The brain is less than 1" from the surface of the skin on the skull--from ANY angle, except where the eyeballs and mouth are, as are all the major limb arteries (brachial, femoral).

Twelve inches of penetration in ballistic gel is going to get most of the way (if not ALL the way) through an average human. If the assailant is thin (or malnourished, like a crack or meth addict) then overpenetration with such a round is pretty much guaranteed.

Unless you are defending against an attacker who is built like rapper Biggie Smalls or "Fat Bastard" from the Austin Powers movie, or Rosie O'Donnell, you are NEVER going to need FBI-criteria-meeting penetration, and in almost EVERY situaion, if you DO use such ammo, you are probably going to have a high chance of overpenetration.

And over-penetration (a through-and-through shot) is NEVER a good thing for a myriad of reasons, the mot important of which is innocent bystanders...

 

[Alexcabbie]

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Dreamer wrote:

Every time I see someone parrot that old saw that you need "12 inches of penetration to be an effective handgun round" I cringe...

In an average, healthy adult male, the CENTER of the heart is less than 5" from the surface of the skin of the chest. Same goes for the lungs, and the intestines. The Liver and pancreas are behind the intestines, so they are a few inches deeper. The brain is less than 1" from the surface of the skin on the skull--from ANY angle, except where the eyeballs and mouth are, as are all the major limb arteries (brachial, femoral).

Twelve inches of penetration in ballistic gel is going to get most of the way (if not ALL the way) through an average human. If the assailant is thin (or malnourished, like a crack or meth addict) then overpenetration with such a round is pretty much guaranteed.

Unless you are defending against an attacker who is built like rapper Biggie Smalls or "Fat Bastard" from the Austin Powers movie, or Rosie O'Donnell, you are NEVER going to need FBI-criteria-meeting penetration, and in almost EVERY situaion, if you DO use such ammo, you are probably going to have a high chance of overpenetration.

And over-penetration (a through-and-through shot) is NEVER a good thing for a myriad of reasons, the mot important of which is innocent bystanders...

Will you PLEASE refrain from making any references to penetrating Rosie O'Donnell? I mean, Gak. Bleah. ulp. urp. HEEAAAAVE!.

 

[GLOCK21GB]

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380, weak under powered round. If your being attacked you want to make sure your attacker goes down and stays down. 9mm 115 grain +P Hollow points at a Minimum. Anything else is a complete waste of money. Learn the art of the double tap.

Most self defense situations that involve you defending yourself with a gun, happen at distances of less that 12 feet. If an attacker is coming at you fast with a knife, they can cover the 12 feet in 2 -3 seconds ....shooting him with a 380 probably would not even slow him down.... unless you got that lucky shot in the heart...

 

[deepdiver]

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Dreamer wrote:

Every time I see someone parrot that old saw that you need "12 inches of penetration to be an effective handgun round" I cringe...

In an average, healthy adult male, the CENTER of the heart is less than 5" from the surface of the skin of the chest. Same goes for the lungs, and the intestines. The Liver and pancreas are behind the intestines, so they are a few inches deeper. The brain is less than 1" from the surface of the skin on the skull--from ANY angle, except where the eyeballs and mouth are, as are all the major limb arteries (brachial, femoral).

Twelve inches of penetration in ballistic gel is going to get most of the way (if not ALL the way) through an average human. If the assailant is thin (or malnourished, like a crack or meth addict) then overpenetration with such a round is pretty much guaranteed.

Unless you are defending against an attacker who is built like rapper Biggie Smalls or "Fat Bastard" from the Austin Powers movie, or Rosie O'Donnell, you are NEVER going to need FBI-criteria-meeting penetration, and in almost EVERY situaion, if you DO use such ammo, you are probably going to have a high chance of overpenetration.

And over-penetration (a through-and-through shot) is NEVER a good thing for a myriad of reasons, the mot important of which is innocent bystanders...

Will you PLEASE refrain from making any references to penetrating Rosie O'Donnell? I mean, Gak. Bleah. ulp. urp. HEEAAAAVE!.

LMAO!!

 

[sevenplusone]

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Dreamer wrote:

Every time I see someone parrot that old saw that you need "12 inches of penetration to be an effective handgun round" I cringe...

In an average, healthy adult male, the CENTER of the heart is less than 5" from the surface of the skin of the chest. Same goes for the lungs, and the intestines. The Liver and pancreas are behind the intestines, so they are a few inches deeper. The brain is less than 1" from the surface of the skin on the skull--from ANY angle, except where the eyeballs and mouth are, as are all the major limb arteries (brachial, femoral).

Twelve inches of penetration in ballistic gel is going to get most of the way (if not ALL the way) through an average human. If the assailant is thin (or malnourished, like a crack or meth addict) then overpenetration with such a round is pretty much guaranteed.

Unless you are defending against an attacker who is built like rapper Biggie Smalls or "Fat Bastard" from the Austin Powers movie, or Rosie O'Donnell, you are NEVER going to need FBI-criteria-meeting penetration, and in almost EVERY situaion, if you DO use such ammo, you are probably going to have a high chance of overpenetration.

And over-penetration (a through-and-through shot) is NEVER a good thing for a myriad of reasons, the mot important of which is innocent bystanders...

How wide are you from shoulder to shoulder? I bet more than 12 inches. I bet from your right shoulder to the center of your chest is pretty close to 10...not to mention all of the bones between your CNS and your shoulder. 12 inches seems like a pretty reasonable number if you consider the fact that the BG might not be perfectly facing you...especially if he has adopted the classic one hand on the auto gangster style stance. Then for fun throw in an over stuff or carhart style coat and it's pretty easy to imagine rounds not reaching their intended target (CNS).

A lack of penetration is a lot more scary to me than overpenetration. Your misses are a lot more dangerous to bystanders than your hits, and if you are abiding by even basic gun safety you should always know your target and what is beyond.

If there are people directly behind where you would be taking the shot you shouldn't be shooting no matter what caliber you have end of story.

 

[John B]

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You would let the BG take the first shot at you if there are people behind him?

 

[The Wolfhound]

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Alexcabbie wrote:

Whatever. I will agree that FMJ is the way to go with a .380 weapon. But I really gotta say, the guys who call .380 a "mouse gun" are wayyy off base. I wouldn't even disparage the .25 as a "mouse gun". These so-called "mouse" calibers are one hell of a lot better than nothing, and they have turmed both two-legged and four-legged rats into fertilizer often and reliably.

It all depends on a number of factors. What you want to carry, how you wnt to carry it, need for deep concealment, etc. go int the mix with "stopping power" etc. A reliable .380 is good for 99.9 % of the situations ayour average schmoe is likely to find himself faced with.

But yes, with .380 and under, FMJ or solid lead is the way to go because in those calibers, the main issue is penetration.

But that is just MY opinion, and I could be wrong.....

Will you PLEASE refrain from making any references to penetrating Rosie O'Donnell? I mean, Gak. Bleah. ulp. urp. HEEAAAAVE!.


Mouse gun is not usually meant as a knock. For lots of us it just means a pocket gun.

Your Rosie comment was spectacular sir!:lol:

 

[sevenplusone]

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John B wrote:

You would let the BG take the first shot at you if there are people behind him?

Can you promise me you have never missed a target?

If there is a crowd of people behind a BG, under no circumstances will I be pulling the trigger....and neither should you...regardless of what caliber/platform/etc you are using. I could see it *maybe* if you were within muzzle to skin distance. If there is any distance longer than that, nope, I will be moving and running for cover.

The Wolfhound wrote:

Mouse gun is not usually meant as a knock. For lots of us it just means a pocket gun.

I agree, it's not a knock...it's just a small caliber small gun.

 

[John B]

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I am probably even less politicaly correct; I call them "pop guns" but I ownsix of them: Taurus PT-22, Taurus PT-25, Beretta Tomcat, Ruger LCP, Walther PPK/S, and an RG-22 (the original $12 "Saturday Night Special"). A small caliber in your pocket/purse is better than a .44magnum in your safe at home. If I'm open carrying, which I haven't done yet, I'll carry my Glock 19.

 

[sevenplusone]

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John B wrote:

I am probably even less politicaly correct; I call them "pop guns" but I ownsix of them: Taurus PT-22, Taurus PT-25, Beretta Tomcat, Ruger LCP, Walther PPK/S, and an RG-22 (the original $12 "Saturday Night Special"). A small caliber in your pocket/purse is better than a .44magnum in your safe at home. If I'm open carrying, which I haven't done yet, I'll carry my Glock 19.

I hate that saying about the small gun in your pocket....

You should be dedicated enough to carrying to carry somethingbigger. I have never had to go somewhere I couldn't at least bring an SP101 .357 mag. A .38 J-Frame is the absolute minimum in my opinion and that is pushing it. I carry a 1911 .45 95% of the time without issue whether it be OC, CC, or otherwise.

 

[1245A Defender]

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i gotta take exception to your measure of "the original saturday night special"
i am the not so proud owner of a 1976 RAVEN ARMS 25 auto,, 39.95 plus tax.
only a couple of boxes of ammo thru it thru the years,,
it has NEVER FAILED!!
got a clip screwed to the side of it,, hangs at the top of my left front pocket.
no matter what,, at least that will be with me,, even on the counter while i shower.
look up wikapedia saturday night special,,,,, thats my gun!!




800 posts wooo wooo wooo

 

[John B]

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I don't see any value in a debate over this. It is believed that both Bobby Kennedy and Reagan were shot with a POS RG-22. Google "RG-22 Saturday night special". I don't really know. I bought the RG 40 years ago for my elderly mother who was throwing firecrackers out the window to run tresspassers/yard burglars away as the demographics in her neighborhood began to change for the worse. It was loaded with rat shot in the first two cylinders and HP in the rest. I told her if they started to come at her instead of running away to keep shooting and she would finally get their attention. The RG is simple, just pull the trigger, no safety.

You may well be right about the origin of the "Sat Night Special" title, but I would caution against accepting Wiki for anything without other verification. Anybody can post or modify anything there.

 

[John B]

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sevenplusone said:


"I hate that saying about the small gun in your pocket....

You should be dedicated enough to carrying to carry somethingbigger. I have never had to go somewhere I couldn't at least bring an SP101 .357 mag. A .38 J-Frame is the absolute minimum in my opinion and that is pushing it. I carry a 1911 .45 95% of the time without issue whether it be OC, CC, or otherwise."



You are obviously a big gun kind of guy! To each his own. I prefer my concealed carry piece to be really hard to detect, and so comfortable that even I forget that I have it on me.

Before I go further, let me admit that I have never open carried. OC is a fairly new trend and I have to get used to the idea. When I do, it will be my Glock 19 for it's large capacity magazine. I have a really beautiful 1911 that I inherited from my father, but I wouldfeel better withmore than eight rounds.

 

[sevenplusone]

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John B wrote:

sevenplusone said:


"I hate that saying about the small gun in your pocket....

You should be dedicated enough to carrying to carry somethingbigger. I have never had to go somewhere I couldn't at least bring an SP101 .357 mag. A .38 J-Frame is the absolute minimum in my opinion and that is pushing it. I carry a 1911 .45 95% of the time without issue whether it be OC, CC, or otherwise."



You are obviously a big gun kind of guy! To each his own. I prefer my concealed carry piece to be really hard to detect, and so comfortable that even I forget that I have it on me.

Before I go further, let me admit that I have never open carried. OC is a fairly new trend and I have to get used to the idea. When I do, it will be my Glock 19 for it's large capacity magazine. I have a really beautiful 1911 that I inherited from my father, but I wouldfeel better withmore than eight rounds.

I understand the capacity arguement...but that doesn't really hold up if you're comfortable carrying a small .380.

Furthermore, the comparison I always make is that lots of people feel comfortable caryring an M&P45. That is only 2 rounds more than what I carry in my 1911. 10+1 rather than 8+1 in the 1911. It's also much more slim and comfortable than any other full-size frame handgun (Glock, M&P, XD, etc).

Take it a step fruther, I carry two back up magazines. That gives me 25 rounds of .45acp at my disposal. That's a lot of firepower when it comes to handguns. I have nothing against hi-cap duty-style firearms, but they are just to big to carry in my opinion.

 

[jihadthis]

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For those of us who have no choice but to CC (Texas) and being a female, in the winter season my 40 is my cc and my 380 is my BUG. Come summer time, the clothing simply does not permit me to wear the 40 for CC

I agree with the people here who say shot placement is very important. I guarantee you that as long as the BG is not so high they can't feel it, they will cease and desist after I put a 380 round into the head and or crotch area.

I don't call 911 :lol: