• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

711 and hats

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
imported post

"Hats off in 7/11" is not a case of courtesy, or of a snooty employee. It is a plain matter of allowing good surviellance camera footage; nothing more, nothing less. Any points in discussion of courtesy or insult is a red herring.
 

hsmith

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
1,687
Location
Virginia USA, ,
imported post

wrightme wrote:
"Hats off in 7/11" is not a case of courtesy, or of a snooty employee. It is a plain matter of allowing good surviellance camera footage; nothing more, nothing less. Any points in discussion of courtesy or insult is a red herring.
And the whole idea 7/11 wants you to take off your hat is STUPID, because, just like gun laws, criminals WILL NOT FOLLOW THE RULE.
 

virginiatuck

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
787
Location
Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
imported post

hsmith wrote:
wrightme wrote:
"Hats off in 7/11" is not a case of courtesy, or of a snooty employee. It is a plain matter of allowing good surviellance camera footage; nothing more, nothing less. Any points in discussion of courtesy or insult is a red herring.
And the whole idea 7/11 wants you to take off your hat is STUPID, because, just like gun laws, criminals WILL NOT FOLLOW THE RULE.
It's not just like gun laws. With the rule, 7/11 will have people leave if they do not follow the rule. Someone there to rob the place at gunpoint isn't going to leave right away, but a shoplifter probably will leave or at least while they're there they will be less likely to shoplift with their face exposed.

so you're right, a confrontational criminal will not follow the rule. However, a non-confrontational criminal will either follow the rule or leave. So the rule probably accomplishes something. Granted, however, the amount they lose in business because of this draconian rule will probably exceed the amount they lose to shoplifters. But that's *their* problem.

I'm just waiting for a moderator to jump in and kill this thread because for the most part it's OT.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
imported post

Odd-job had a hat that he threw and could cut the head off a porcelain statue.

He wore it on his head. OC.

There. Nice and tidy and back OT.:lol:
 

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
imported post

This is a terrible policy, and it's spreading like cancer around the country.

The mentality behind it should be obvious from this article:

Credit union says ‘take off your hat'

Carolina Federal to make those in hats, hoods or sunglasses go to special teller to deter robbers.

By Clay Barbour
cbarbour@charlotteobserver.com
Posted: Sunday, Feb. 22, 2009

In an effort to deter bank robbers, an area credit union will become among the state's first financial institutions to restrict their customers from wearing hats, hoods or sunglasses.

Officials with the Carolina Federal Credit Union said last week that beginning March 2, it will institute new regulations requiring customers remove head coverings before entering their buildings.

Those who refuse will not be turned away, but won't be able to conduct business with the regular tellers. Instead, they will be monitored and served at a location near the front of the branch.

“This program will provide a safer environment for members and employees,” said Donna Beringer, CFCU president. “The simple act of removing hats, hoods, and sunglasses in the credit union will not only help deter would-be robbers, it makes it much easier to identify and capture anyone that chooses to perpetrate fraud.”

The policy's concession is aimed at customers who wear religious headgear, such as Jewish men wearing yarmulkes or Muslim women wearing hijabs. But they too would only be helped at the front.

So we will be separate but equal,” said Rose Hamid, head of the Muslim Women of the Carolinas. “That is absolutely unacceptable. I would find that offensive and I would do everything I could to make sure it does not go through.”

Bank robberies are common. And according to experts, they tend to go up during times of economic hardship. Though, oddly, this year bank robberies have dropped.

Hundreds of banks and credit unions across the country have instituted the “No hats, no glasses, no hoods” policy, including agencies in California, Massachusetts, Missouri, Oklahoma and Florida.

This month, a Muslim woman was denied service at the Community Bank of the Bay in Oakland, Calif., where officials had recently instituted the policy. The ensuing controversy forced the bank to release an official apology.

“We understand what is behind this,” said Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. “But this is such a broad and vague policy that it will inevitably lead to problems.”

The council, based in Washington, D.C., is the country's largest Muslim advocacy group. Hooper said officials there have just recently started hearing about the “no hats” policy. He said it fails to address several issues, such as what to do about cancer victims wearing scarves, nuns wearing habits or blind people wearing glasses.

Will they cordon them all off,” he said.

CFCU's Security Officer, Erin Williams, said the program is meant to assist law enforcement officers in their investigations of robberies, as well as cases of fraud and forgery.

Anyone who walks into the office and does not abide by this policy will be watched more closely and know that they are being watched,” she said.
 

hsmith

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
1,687
Location
Virginia USA, ,
imported post

virginiatuck wrote:
hsmith wrote:
wrightme wrote:
"Hats off in 7/11" is not a case of courtesy, or of a snooty employee. It is a plain matter of allowing good surviellance camera footage; nothing more, nothing less. Any points in discussion of courtesy or insult is a red herring.
And the whole idea 7/11 wants you to take off your hat is STUPID, because, just like gun laws, criminals WILL NOT FOLLOW THE RULE.
It's not just like gun laws. With the rule, 7/11 will have people leave if they do not follow the rule. Someone there to rob the place at gunpoint isn't going to leave right away, but a shoplifter probably will leave or at least while they're there they will be less likely to shoplift with their face exposed.

so you're right, a confrontational criminal will not follow the rule. However, a non-confrontational criminal will either follow the rule or leave. So the rule probably accomplishes something. Granted, however, the amount they lose in business because of this draconian rule will probably exceed the amount they lose to shoplifters. But that's *their* problem.

I'm just waiting for a moderator to jump in and kill this thread because for the most part it's OT.
Sorry, but this is as feel good as any anti-gun legislation, to think otherwise is foolhardy. It won't stop crime, it simply groups GOOD PEOPLE with BAD and disallows law abiding people from going about their business. It is the SAME EXACT THING as a company putting up a "NO GUNS" sign - it stops the law abiding, it doesn't do a thing for the criminal.

It is a stupid, absolutely stupid policy and should be ignored.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
imported post

No, it is not "feel good" policy or legislation. It effectively makes sure that security cameras can record images of customers. It does not affect the rights of anyone, and does not hamper law-abiding citizens from exercise of any rights.

hsmith wrote:
virginiatuck wrote:
hsmith wrote:
wrightme wrote:
"Hats off in 7/11" is not a case of courtesy, or of a snooty employee. It is a plain matter of allowing good surviellance camera footage; nothing more, nothing less. Any points in discussion of courtesy or insult is a red herring.
And the whole idea 7/11 wants you to take off your hat is STUPID, because, just like gun laws, criminals WILL NOT FOLLOW THE RULE.
It's not just like gun laws. With the rule, 7/11 will have people leave if they do not follow the rule. Someone there to rob the place at gunpoint isn't going to leave right away, but a shoplifter probably will leave or at least while they're there they will be less likely to shoplift with their face exposed.

so you're right, a confrontational criminal will not follow the rule. However, a non-confrontational criminal will either follow the rule or leave. So the rule probably accomplishes something. Granted, however, the amount they lose in business because of this draconian rule will probably exceed the amount they lose to shoplifters. But that's *their* problem.

I'm just waiting for a moderator to jump in and kill this thread because for the most part it's OT.
Sorry, but this is as feel good as any anti-gun legislation, to think otherwise is foolhardy. It won't stop crime, it simply groups GOOD PEOPLE with BAD and disallows law abiding people from going about their business. It is the SAME EXACT THING as a company putting up a "NO GUNS" sign - it stops the law abiding, it doesn't do a thing for the criminal.

It is a stupid, absolutely stupid policy and should be ignored.
 

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

wrightme wrote:
No, it is not "feel good" policy or legislation. It effectively makes sure that security cameras can record images of customers. It does not affect the rights of anyone, and does not hamper law-abiding citizens from exercise of any rights.

hsmith wrote:
virginiatuck wrote:
hsmith wrote:
wrightme wrote:
"Hats off in 7/11" is not a case of courtesy, or of a snooty employee. It is a plain matter of allowing good surviellance camera footage; nothing more, nothing less. Any points in discussion of courtesy or insult is a red herring.
And the whole idea 7/11 wants you to take off your hat is STUPID, because, just like gun laws, criminals WILL NOT FOLLOW THE RULE.
It's not just like gun laws. With the rule, 7/11 will have people leave if they do not follow the rule. Someone there to rob the place at gunpoint isn't going to leave right away, but a shoplifter probably will leave or at least while they're there they will be less likely to shoplift with their face exposed.

so you're right, a confrontational criminal will not follow the rule. However, a non-confrontational criminal will either follow the rule or leave. So the rule probably accomplishes something. Granted, however, the amount they lose in business because of this draconian rule will probably exceed the amount they lose to shoplifters. But that's *their* problem.

I'm just waiting for a moderator to jump in and kill this thread because for the most part it's OT.
Sorry, but this is as feel good as any anti-gun legislation, to think otherwise is foolhardy. It won't stop crime, it simply groups GOOD PEOPLE with BAD and disallows law abiding people from going about their business. It is the SAME EXACT THING as a company putting up a "NO GUNS" sign - it stops the law abiding, it doesn't do a thing for the criminal.

It is a stupid, absolutely stupid policy and should be ignored.
Of course it's feelgood policy. In Virginia, it's a felony to wear a mask in public. But if I were interested in robbing banks or 7-11s, I imagine I would probably blow that law right off.

Shoplifters? Easy. Ignore the clerk telling you to remove your hat. Walk down the aisle, grab whatever you want, and run out the door. Try not to bump into the honest customer with the bare head on the way out.

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f8f8f8"
 

hsmith

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
1,687
Location
Virginia USA, ,
imported post

wrightme wrote:
No, it is not "feel good" policy or legislation. It effectively makes sure that security cameras can record images of customers. It does not affect the rights of anyone, and does not hamper law-abiding citizens from exercise of any rights.

hsmith wrote:
virginiatuck wrote:
hsmith wrote:
wrightme wrote:
"Hats off in 7/11" is not a case of courtesy, or of a snooty employee. It is a plain matter of allowing good surviellance camera footage; nothing more, nothing less. Any points in discussion of courtesy or insult is a red herring.
And the whole idea 7/11 wants you to take off your hat is STUPID, because, just like gun laws, criminals WILL NOT FOLLOW THE RULE.
It's not just like gun laws. With the rule, 7/11 will have people leave if they do not follow the rule. Someone there to rob the place at gunpoint isn't going to leave right away, but a shoplifter probably will leave or at least while they're there they will be less likely to shoplift with their face exposed.

so you're right, a confrontational criminal will not follow the rule. However, a non-confrontational criminal will either follow the rule or leave. So the rule probably accomplishes something. Granted, however, the amount they lose in business because of this draconian rule will probably exceed the amount they lose to shoplifters. But that's *their* problem.

I'm just waiting for a moderator to jump in and kill this thread because for the most part it's OT.
Sorry, but this is as feel good as any anti-gun legislation, to think otherwise is foolhardy. It won't stop crime, it simply groups GOOD PEOPLE with BAD and disallows law abiding people from going about their business. It is the SAME EXACT THING as a company putting up a "NO GUNS" sign - it stops the law abiding, it doesn't do a thing for the criminal.

It is a stupid, absolutely stupid policy and should be ignored.
Since when do criminals follow laws or policies of stores? If the policy is not to steal, does it matter much? This does nothing to stop crime, I am flabbergasted people actually think this is a good idea :banghead:

Do you really think a crook will walk in with their hoodie on and be like "oh shoot I have my hoodie on" - take it off, then stick a gun in the clerks face? Really?
 

markand

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
512
Location
VA
imported post

Was it a black hat? Its widely known those are worn by bad guys, gang bangers and such. Perhaps you should switch to a lighter color. The 7-11 folks would probably be much more at ease with a lighter color chapeau.

Ok, you caught me, the above was a lame attempt at humor.

In all seriousness its easily understood why they are concerned about the hats. It hides features from both the human clerks and the video security system. Making people take them off seems a little over the top (ha - another lame attempt at humor).

There is no constitutional right I am aware of to wear a hat. Might be able to stretch the first amendment to cover it, but the right to bear arms IS so enshrined in the constitution. Perhaps a letter to the editor of local newspaper(s), laying out this story and pointing out what many will see as the irony, and stupidity, of being asked to take off your hat, while being perfectly fine with your gun. And all this so the store operators will feel more secure. Might be an opportunity to educate on open carry while making the point about the absurdity of the "hats off" directive.

Food for thought in any case (and on to page 4!!)
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
imported post

ProShooter wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
How many more pages do you think we can fill talking about wearing a hat in 7-11?
I don't know, how many pages before you stop checking back?:lol:
I have to check back..there's money riding on it. I got "5 pages" in the pool.
Tweeeet! Flag! You can't keep posting messages then, to artificially inflate the page count! 10 yard penalty!

;)

TFred
 

buster81

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
1,461
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
imported post

wrightme wrote:
No, it is not "feel good" policy or legislation. It effectively makes sure that security cameras can record images of customers. It does not affect the rights of anyone, and does not hamper law-abiding citizens from exercise of any rights.
What would be a better plan would be tomake everyone enter the bank (or store)and strip. That way, the cameras would be able to see tattoos,scars and other identifying features. You would really be able to find the robbers if you knew what their face looked like, and that they had a big dragon tattoo on their back, and that the had a pierced... well you get the idea.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
imported post

buster81 wrote:
wrightme wrote:
No, it is not "feel good" policy or legislation. It effectively makes sure that security cameras can record images of customers. It does not affect the rights of anyone, and does not hamper law-abiding citizens from exercise of any rights.
What would be a better plan would be tomake everyone enter the bank (or store)and strip. That way, the cameras would be able to see tattoos,scars and other identifying features. You would really be able to find the robbers if you knew what their face looked like, and that they had a big dragon tattoo on their back, and that the had a pierced... well you get the idea.
Mandatory use of Real ID to gain entrance will soon be reality. The ID will be linked to biometrics, so don't worry. Big brother will fix this problem like all other problems.
 

wylde007

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
3,035
Location
Va Beach, Occupied VA
imported post

Except that VA General Assembly refuses to comply with federal Real ID.

A national citizen registry and clearinghouse has been rejected by a great number of states.

Lessons from Hitler:

Take away private firearms
National Registry
Socialize and nationalize trade and industry
Eliminate all dissenters and opponents
Wage total war
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
imported post

virginiatuck wrote:
Look up 'hat etiquette'.  Like most salutations and customs, they have evolved over many generations.  Less so now, but it used to be rather disrespectful to wear a hat indoors.

I generally don't consider a public store to be one of the places I must remove my hat, but I do in restaurants, visiting people's homes, and when I'm visiting a client's office.  In my own office, I sometimes leave my hat on.

It may be that the owner is feebly trying to restore some order and a sense of respect in his community.

And not all thieves who enter the 7-11 are confrontational.  If 7-11 in fact wants a nice picture for the camera, they could be looking for shoplifters and not just armed robbers.
I doubt it. Much more likely a vain attempt at crime control

In my own opinion, the rule of etiquette by which hats are not to be worn indoors has about as much value as the former rule of etiquette by which blacks were not supposed to mingle with whites. Etiquette should reflect our desire to live in a nonaggressive, peaceful society. "No wearing hats!" is just one person imposing his aesthetic values on another, and is more often an act of aggression (in, say, schools) than is merely wearing a hat.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
imported post

Neplusultra wrote:
virginiatuck wrote:
Look up 'hat etiquette'.  Like most salutations and customs, they have evolved over many generations.  Less so now, but it used to be rather disrespectful to wear a hat indoors.

I generally don't consider a public store to be one of the places I must remove my hat, but I do in restaurants, visiting people's homes, and when I'm visiting a client's office.  In my own office, I sometimes leave my hat on.
I never did understand the reasoning behind this social custom.  My father once got angry with me because I didn't take of my baseball cap inside a Chesapeake Bay Seafood restaurant.  I said, "Dad, look around".  There was at least 7 or 8 others wearing their caps too.

What's the deal with taking off your hat?
Some people believe "custom" is important, but reason is valueless. :quirky
 
Top