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A questions as to your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
First of all, this has been debated by far greater minds that myself but here's my take on it.

As citizens of the U.S.A. we are all meant to have the right to own a firearm (the general populace is meant to be the "militia"). I think that to understand the 2nd amendment you have to look backwards and try to put yourself into the authors' shoes. You have just won a revolution against a tyrannical government in which you had to fight to break free. In trying to set up a new government, you try to think of every angle to keep the same from happening again. One of the major components is arming every citizen against foes both foreign and domestic. If I were to write a constitution to form a "free/democratic" country I would come to the same conclusion along with free speech, etc... If a government oversteps it's bounds, to the point of trampling the rights of the individual citizen, you want the ability of the average citizen to "rise up" and displace the corrupt government with one that functions within the original intent of the constitution.

{snipped to save the lives of innocent electrons]

I think you bring up some good points and as you this is only my thought on 2A. Not only had they just won a war with England but were now facing the chore of defending not only a rebelion within but defending a border that was not that much less distance than what we have now. The argument against a standing army was not only political but a practical one that due to the limited availablilty of travel at that time a standing army to be effective would have been too much of a burden on the country.

With this thought it was that the same way the revolution was one was the way to defend the country and all parts it. That method was a militia of all able bodied men or whoever else was needed. Each person was expected to defend his part of the border as part of that militia. The well regulated part was that all were expected to be well trained in fighting and to come to the aid of their neighbor if needed.

Much of the arme used in the revolution including ships and cannons were privately owned and the writers understood that for a militia or army to be effective they would have to be armed with more than just knives, bows and rifles. They understood this and meant to include ALL ARMS in writing 2A. Ther was no thought to having it only apply to personal arms or handguns. It meant all arms, the private citizen was the military so anything that the military uses was also to be part of the private citizen's (militia's) arsenal. The opinion nowdays that the National Guard replaces the militaty is BS as the National Guard is just a part of the standing army.

The right of self-defense for a citizen was a given right that was so ingraned into their thinking that it was not felt that there was any need to even consider that as a specified right. If a citizen could defend themselves from invaders such as the Indians or French surely they could also defend themselves from a robber. They were the one and same.

Fast forward 200 years and we should still have that same right and responsibility as the average citizen should be allowed to defend ourselves from the invasion from Mexico and the Middle East. However we are restricted because the militia has been effectively disbanded because of our standing army, INS, FBI, SS, BATF and all the other alphabet agencies. Sadly we are also prohibited from the internal revolution that the writers saw that a country may need one day.

We also fast forward 200 years and now should the average person be allowed to keep a nuke in his garage or possible walk around with it across his back? We all realize that these weapons are so devastating that we even try to prohibit countries from having them. With that we realize that maybe there should be some limits on 2A due to the massive danger that these weapons possess. Not that anything in 2A prohibits them but common sense says that a line should be drawn somewhere.

But where is that line drawn is the problem. 2A is about the defense of the country and the individual. It does not say anything about the right to own a handgun, shotgun or rifle as long as they are not automatic. It is about the right to defend yourself and your country and in order to do that you may be armed. You have the right to KEEP and to BEAR those arms. But when and where?

The SCOTUS got it right when they said that you had the right to be armed in your home. You also have the right to be armed on your property and you are defending your property. The writers said Yes, you have the responsibility to defend your home, your property and yourself. And you have the right to do that with the arms you need.

With all of this we have to go back to the thought of the nuke and where is the line drawn? With some there should be no line at all. Maybe from a legal technical point they are correct and I cannot actually disagree with them. From a practical standpoint I think that a line is needed as you cannot contain the effects of an exploding nuke or the release of a biological weapon to your property. So we have to look at how a weapon will affect others when we use it. If it only affects the bad guys or invaders then we are good but innocent bystanders are different. When you fire your gun does the bullet stay on your property or does it travel to your neighbors?

Some want the line drawn to where there are no weapons but that goes against 2A and common sense. To me 2A applies to much more than handguns and the right to walk around with a 1911 strapped on your hip. Many choose to completely ignore the first part of 2A but it provides the whole meaning of the remainder of it. 2A says that we have the right to be armed to protect our home, property and ourselves. Whereever we may be we have the right to be armed protect ourselves. If one wants to argue when an where the line is drawn then go ahead. To me 2A says that we should be able to have fully automatic weapons on our own property or wehn we are fighting off invaders. We should also be able to have cannons on our property if we think they will be needed.

I do not think that 2A applies just to handguns and I don't think that 2A or the writers felt that prisoners in jail should be allowed to have weapons to protect their jail Will you need a weapon to protect yourself in a police station, Wal-Mart, courthouse, or school and what kind of weapon will you need. This is where the line is. I think that 2A was meant to be interpreted and any kind of weapon at any time and any place that it was needed, but not as a right to carry any kind of weapon you want to anyplace you want to. There is a line that meets the intent of 2A. To ignore the first part of 2A is wrong and to think that 2A only applies to certain types of weapons is wrong. I am not sure where that line should be but I am sure that very few if anyone is or will be hapy about it.

[My opinion only an to be taken as such]
 

wrightme

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They did use the home as an example. They were also clear that the example did not limit the right to the home.

I assume that's how he got that bit of misinformation from the ruling.
It is also an excellent example of how disinformation spreads quickly through misunderstanding of the underlying ruling.
 

rushcreek2

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The federal judiciary has constituted power to DECIDE CASES arising under the Constitution. The DECISIONS in the Heller and McDonald cases held that Heller and McDonald did have a right protected under the provisions of the 2A to keep and bear firearms including handguns under circumstances SUCH AS IN THE HOME.

This is WHAT the Court DECIDED- not what the majority OPINED in support of the DECISION.

The foundational holding upon which The Heller/McDonald DECISIONS were based clearly implied that the right is not restricted to the HOME - but the Constitutional POWER of the SCOTUS is to DECIDE CASES arising under the Constitution. The POWER of the Court was exercised when it DECIDED that Heller and McDonald could not be barred by the City governments of D.C., and Chicago from keeping & bearing particular firearms IN THEIR HOMES.

The ripple affect of SCOTUS reasoning expressed in the majority opinions will impact future court decisions - but the Constituted POWER of the courts rests in DECISIONS. The SCOTUS can very easily turn this RIGHT into a privilege - as was evidenced in Justice Thomas' opinion in McDonald referring to the RIGHT as constituting a "privilege" of U.S. citizenship.

As much as I respect , and appreciate Justice Thomas - a privilege of citizenship derives from that citizenship. The natural RIGHT of self-defense exists independent of any citizenship.
 
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Dutch Uncle

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Basic definitions

The militia was a pretty simple concept in the 18th century. I believe it was George Mason who said "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." The basic militia (called the "unorganized militia" in the VA constitution) includes just about everyone, but Mason mentioned that public officials couldn't be part of it, since this militia wasn't to be a governmental organization. So let's reword the amendment a bit:

"A well armed populace being neccessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

I kind of wish the framers had worded it this way so the anti-rights people couldn't have had such a field day saying it doesn't mean what it says.
 

2a4all

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The militia was a pretty simple concept in the 18th century. I believe it was George Mason who said "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." The basic militia (called the "unorganized militia" in the VA constitution) includes just about everyone, but Mason mentioned that public officials couldn't be part of it, since this militia wasn't to be a governmental organization. So let's reword the amendment a bit:

"A well armed populace being neccessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

I kind of wish the framers had worded it this way so the anti-rights people couldn't have had such a field day saying it doesn't mean what it says.

In lieu of the term "militia", I think they would've had to say "A well armed populace trained to arms...". But then, we'd have Boxer and her ilk trying to define "well armed" (flintlocks only, please) and "trained to arms".:(
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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One of the things that is causing some knicker-twist, is the use of the comma's in the original amendment. People are judging what the interpretation is based on the modern rules of grammar that have developed. But, we have to remember that just as the word 'gay' has changed, the rules have as well. I'm of the belief that the comma's were used to separate and emphasize parts of the amendment, just as one might when speaking.

I note that the First Amendment is a restriction on Congress, as at that time the States were free to have official religions. Connecticut continued to have an official religion until 1818 and Massachusetts until 1833. The Second Amendment has no such limitation.

Funny, isn't it, how the First Amendment which limited only Congress and therefore the Federal government was broadly interpreted as being applicable to Every State, county, city, town and village yet the Second was interpreted as only a very narrow restriction on the Federal government, leaving the States free to make any and all restrictions they wished?
 

Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D.

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But where is that line drawn is the problem. 2A is about the defense of the country and the individual. It does not say anything about the right to own a handgun, shotgun or rifle as long as they are not automatic. It is about the right to defend yourself and your country and in order to do that you may be armed. You have the right to KEEP and to BEAR those arms. But when and where?

The SCOTUS got it right when they said that you had the right to be armed in your home. You also have the right to be armed on your property and you are defending your property. The writers said Yes, you have the responsibility to defend your home, your property and yourself. And you have the right to do that with the arms you need.

With all of this we have to go back to the thought of the nuke and where is the line drawn? With some there should be no line at all. Maybe from a legal technical point they are correct and I cannot actually disagree with them. From a practical standpoint I think that a line is needed as you cannot contain the effects of an exploding nuke or the release of a biological weapon to your property. So we have to look at how a weapon will affect others when we use it. If it only affects the bad guys or invaders then we are good but innocent bystanders are different. When you fire your gun does the bullet stay on your property or does it travel to your neighbors?

Very good points. In regards to the nuke or other WOMDs, obviously the authors had no idea of how weapons technology would develop over the next 200+ years. As it is today, *we* have no idea what the future will bring. Nano technology weapons that can disassemble matter at the subatomic level? Anti-matter explosive devices perhaps? No one can know for sure. That is what is so important about the democratic process is that the the individual is allowed to vote for the general good of the populace. The common sense of the majority of voters (which yes, sometimes is lacking, but overall works in a general sense) should dictate the regulation of weapons. The line is hard to be drawn sometimes but that is what a democracy is about. There is always someone or group that is going to be unhappy with a particular decision. But that person still must respect the decision of society as a whole. Maybe I personally don't agree with making "auto knives" or machine guns illegal. If I don't like that decision it is up to me or a group of like minded individuals to change the mind of the general populace and swing the vote (using reason/logic etc...)
 

bugly

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Another point often missed n this particular discussion is the fact that this is the only instance within the Constitution or Amendments that mentions a "free state". Of course those who wish to wield full control over a populace will rail against ANYTHING else contained in such an Amendment. To wit: If the first Amendment had mentioned a "free state", there would be people fighting the practice of redress against the government or speech, etc. There will always be a faction (usually those within government) that will attempt to reduce the power of those they supposedly serve. This Amendment just happens to be an easy one to sell as being "evil" since the advent of social experimentation and the general impression of the population that firearms are no longer needed (because the military and police have them and are here to keep you safe...)
Please do not get me wrong, I carry personal firearms daily, openly and will continue to do so indefinitely. Just bear in mind it may not really be the arms that are the true target (so to speak) in this case.
If the media and do-gooders get their way and are able to remove the Second Amendment as they wish to do, it will be the end of the guarantee of freedom in this country.
JMHO, of course, YMMV
 

The 4th Wolf

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A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State

It doesn't really matter where the commas are, as they don't substantially change the meaning of the sentence. Back then it was common to use commas to indicate a rhetorical pause.
The bottom line is that the Militia Clause is expository, not exclusionary.
By the wording of the amendment, the individual right to keep and bear arms is assumed to be preexisting. The purpose of the 2A as it was ratified was to protect the individual right in order to promote the existence of the militia. Many state constitutions went further, recognizing and protecting the RKBA for the sake of self-defense.
In other words, you'd still have the RKBA (in the normative sense) even without the 2A or any explicit protections in the various state constitutions.
 

eye95

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It doesn't really matter where the commas are, as they don't substantially change the meaning of the sentence. Back then it was common to use commas to indicate a rhetorical pause.
The bottom line is that the Militia Clause is expository, not exclusionary.
By the wording of the amendment, the individual right to keep and bear arms is assumed to be preexisting. The purpose of the 2A as it was ratified was to protect the individual right in order to promote the existence of the militia. Many state constitutions went further, recognizing and protecting the RKBA for the sake of self-defense.
In other words, you'd still have the RKBA (in the normative sense) even without the 2A or any explicit protections in the various state constitutions.

The misplaced comma can change the subject of the sentence from "the right of the people" (as it was intended) to "a well-regulated militia" (as the antis would have us believe). The only reason we can be sure that the Framer's intent was that the subject be "the right" was the existence of numerous copies of the BoR, including those actually ratified by the States, with the correct placement of commas.

Commas don't add rhetorical pause. They add and alter meaning. In the case of the 2A, one of the misplaced commas takes the first few words of an explanatory clause and transforms it into the subject of the predicate (which is now really hard to identify, making the sentence grammatical nonsense--true revisionist grist).
 

Grapeshot

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There is formal writing and casual usage. The writers of our BoR were very formal and explicit and sweat bullets putting to paper the precise meanings of their intent - right down to the punctuation marks.
 

aosailor

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I just had this conversation yesterday on facebook with my friend.

My friend:"‎"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." I always wondered what the whole well regulated militia part was about...."

my answers: " think about context. the colonies just fought a 2 year war against their own government for their freedom. how did they fight this war? with farmers and plantation owners, with blacksmiths and children. not some highly trained military force. small groups of men that would form together (called militias) and defend their land from war hardened British soldiers.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State: sure, you need an organized group or force to militarily defend your country/land. but read on:

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It doesnt say the right of the militia, it says the right of the "people" because the people just finished fighting a war against their own government. they new that it might happen again, so to protect the "people" from the government the Framers recognized the people's right and need for arms to once again stand up and fight back against tyrannical governments.

we are talking about the 2A here, which is part of the Bill of Rights. these ten rights are not about governmental powers, but the rights of everyday American citizens like you and me. then why would our founding fathers just toss in a right about militias and the military into that mix? let alone make it the 2nd on the list?

remember the 2A is the only Amendment that reads "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" no other amendment has that written into it. that is how important the founding fathers believed in this right. they made sure that there was no possible way to government could "legally" take away our guns. so technically speaking any laws that "regulate" or "restrict" our capability of owning and bearing our arms is unconstitutional (see DC vs. Heller for example)"
 

William Fisher

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I've not read all the posts, so if I'm repeating something, sorry.

A malitia is us. The shop keepers, candle stick makers, black smiths and such. We had a standing army, we called The Red Coats. The following is Suzanna Gratia Hupp testifying befor Congress concerning Second Amendment: [video=youtube;M1u0Byq5Qis]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis&feature=player_embedded[/video]
 

Beretta92FSLady

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However my understanding is that the ORIGNAL 2nd Amendment was this:
As passed by the Congress:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

http://constitutionus.com/#x4

As ratified by the States:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

First, it should be "As ratified by the (s)tates (not (S)tates)."

What was (is) the intent of the Second Amendment; who was (is) it speaking to; The people, the Government?

-A well regulated Militia,

Regulated by who?

-being necessary to the security of a free State,

Yes, it is necessary to the security of a free State. They are pointing out that the security of a "free State" is dependent on a "well regulated Militia."

Now, were they referring to the security of the State or the state? It appears they were referring to the (S)tate, not the (s)tate(s), meaning; The United States of America.

-the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,

Now, they reference a "well regulated Militia" then describe it as being necessary to the "security of a free State." Then they describe a "right of the people to keep and bear arms." And that is "shall not be infringed." Are they indicating that the peoples "right to keep and bear arms" as being necessary for a "well regulated Militia?" If so, why wouldn't they first describe the right of the people, then the Militia? Yes, a Militia is made up of people, or "the people." Were they referring to some form of dedicated military...or a bunch of farmers who take up arms when called upon?

-shall not be infringed.

This last line reads nice, but let's get real here...what do they mean by "shall not be infringed?" What does it mean to infringe? To violate or break? So, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms," since the right to "keep," and "bear" are affirmed as a "right" (not fundamental? Wait, the affirmation of fundamental rights, right?), the peoples right to "keep," and "bear" arms shall not be violated. Is violation an absolute, or can it be measured in degrees? If so, are there Violations, and violations? Or are there merely one form of violation which is Violation? To not infringe as an absolute? If a person is required to have a background check to purchase a firearm, is that an infringement? Or is it an encroachment? It seems that an infringement is an encroachment upon some thing, in this case, a right--the right being to keep and bear arms.

Personally, I think they should have ordered the Second Amendment differently. There might be less debate--ok, there would be just as much as there has been since the signings of the Constitution.

Let's consider the Second Amendment written in this order:

"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed, A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State."

You can't have a Militia without the people able to "keep and bear arms" (if one is asserting that the people are to "keep and bear arms" in order to form Militia). Or can you? Why would they (Founding Fathers) unless they were concerned about external forces much more than internal forces compromising the security of the free State.

It appears that the arrangement of the Second Amendment is out of order...that is, if the intent of the Second Amendment is for the people to "keep and bear arms" for the purposes of forming a Militia in the event that the security of the State is at stake.
 

LongRider

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I would like to be on the honest side. I would appreciate your thoughts, but please try to be objective.

2A does not grant us any right. Instead it confirms an inalienable God given right based upon the concept that having been given life we have the inherent right to nurture protect and defend that life. 2A simply articulated that the government shall NOT INFRINGE upon that right. To have a better understanding of what our founding fathers intended read their writing on the subject. They intended that there be no restriction on the arms a citizen could have. They do not go into great detail about the need to sustain life ie hunting as that is a given but do expound a great deal about the responsibility of every citizen to defend their own life and property. When writing about guns there is less discussion about rights than there is about duty, obligation and responsibility with a great deal of emphasis placed on the citizens ability to overthrow a tyrannical government that has ceased to serve the peoples best interest. Meaning they intended there be no restriction on guns that would impede the peoples ability to put the government in check. If we are to follow the spirit of their intent we each should not only be allowed to have every gun available to the military. We would have an obligation to have state of the art military weapons in our possession along with the ability to use them effectively.
Remember above all else the foundation of our government is that the government should be in fear of the people not the other way around.
 

SourKraut

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It appears that the arrangement of the Second Amendment is out of order...that is, if the intent of the Second Amendment is for the people to "keep and bear arms" for the purposes of forming a Militia in the event that the security of the State is at stake.

I think that if you read up on some of the Founding Fathers a little bit more you would find that they chose their words and wording very carefuly. They meant exactly what they wrote, but it is somewhat distorted becuse we no longer use The King's English.

James Madison said:
Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate Government

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html#ixzz1PZdGy5Gq
 

Beretta92FSLady

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I think that if you read up on some of the Founding Fathers a little bit more you would find that they chose their words and wording very carefuly. They meant exactly what they wrote, but it is somewhat distorted becuse we no longer use The King's English.



Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/james_madison.html#ixzz1PZdGy5Gq

I agree that the Constitution was strategically written, meaning, each words serves a purpose. That being said, I was merely critiquing my impression of the Second Amendment at the moment.
 

MedicineMan

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First, it should be "As ratified by the (s)tates (not (S)tates)."

What was (is) the intent of the Second Amendment; who was (is) it speaking to; The people, the Government?

-A well regulated Militia,

Regulated by who?

-being necessary to the security of a free State,

Yes, it is necessary to the security of a free State. They are pointing out that the security of a "free State" is dependent on a "well regulated Militia."

Now, were they referring to the security of the State or the state? It appears they were referring to the (S)tate, not the (s)tate(s), meaning; The United States of America.

-the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,

Now, they reference a "well regulated Militia" then describe it as being necessary to the "security of a free State." Then they describe a "right of the people to keep and bear arms." And that is "shall not be infringed." Are they indicating that the peoples "right to keep and bear arms" as being necessary for a "well regulated Militia?" If so, why wouldn't they first describe the right of the people, then the Militia? Yes, a Militia is made up of people, or "the people." Were they referring to some form of dedicated military...or a bunch of farmers who take up arms when called upon?

.


This is another muddying of the language by today's SLANGLISH that causes confusion.

"REGULATED" had absolutely NOTHING to do with "laws" or "regulations".

It was a military term used to indicate TRAINING and EQUIPMENT status.

"Well regulated" means literally.... "Well armed and trained to fight".

The second amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting and target shooting, and EVERYTHING to do with being able to overthrow a tyrannical and oppressive government.
 
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