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Anonyone know if Barnes and Noble follows State law when it comes to Open Carry?

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
The gov't basically co-owns the property with you, that's why they can tax you every year. Same thing with our cars. If we had allodial titles to our properties, then it'd be different. And I think allodial titles would be the proper way to do it for the most part. The problem though is that what you do on your property affects the person on the next one (i.e. - you dump used motor oil onto your land...it gets into the water supply).

This is not how the founders viewed it, and anything I do on my property that causes damages to someone else, is a civil matter or a legal matter that I can be brought to court for.

You receive services yearly from your City, County, and State don't you? Why not pay yearly?

You are missing my point I feel a one time tax is good enough, I pay sales taxes, I pay tax on gas, I pay business tax, I pay pay pay and a yearly tax on something you own outright and have already paid taxes on (all rights are derived from property rights) is communistic/socialistic and in my opinion unconstitutional. The services I use should all be paid by commerce alone otherwise get rid of it.

Why should I continue to pay for Library, I never use, so that others can? Why should I be forced to pay for a Unionized Fire station when a volunteer one works just as well etc etc. This does not mean I would object to sales tax being used for these things, but taxing something simply because you own it? That's messed up.
 

amlevin

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Why should I continue to pay for Library, I never use, so that others can? Why should I be forced to pay for a Unionized Fire station when a volunteer one works just as well etc etc. This does not mean I would object to sales tax being used for these things, but taxing something simply because you own it? That's messed up.

The whole idea of a tax is that EVERYONE pays a little to provide services that COULD benefit everyone. If these "services" were to be charged out to only those who used them they would be so prohibitively expensive to the individual that there would be none of them provided to anyone.

We all benefit from libraries, fire departments, police departments, road departments, etc. Yes, they can be mismanaged but cutting them off from tax revenue isn't the way to solve the problem.

As for taxing property in one big chunk and then not paying again until it's sold, give some thought to that. We would probably see huge property tax bills. If you pay $3,000 per year in taxes, expect a bill closer to $20,000 at the time of sale (based on average home ownership time of 6-7 years). That would screw that person that sells after one or two years. Only person benefiting would be the one who lives 10 years or more on the same property.

Frankly I don't have an issue with property taxes, just how the revenue is wasted.
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Are you saying that he wouldn't have progressed to a Kindle? After all, we are talking about the man that took us from candles to electricity..:D

He probably would have but if he were to try and read it in bed at night his wife would have told him to "go fly a kite".

The "Ben Franklin" model of the Kindle would have probably had a "kite string adapter" so it could be recharged in about a millisecond or so. Assuming it survived the lightning strike that is.
 

Lovenox

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Olympia
Several points. I recently started to go to the library and found it to be of some use and since I pay property taxes I find myself in some small measure to use it to my family's benefit. However, I should find it profitable for my use because I "chose" to go to the library not because I am already paying for it and therfore might as well go. But in any event, I find it to be of some benefit.
Property taxes should be assessed at the time of sale and not on some ongoing, nebulus estimation factor. I routinely vote no on levies because quite frankly I dont want to be taxed out of my own home.
Two things that shouldn't be taxed: things to eat and a place to live.
 
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Lovenox

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Olympia
The "Ben Franklin" model of the Kindle would have probably had a "kite string adapter" so it could be recharged in about a millisecond or so. Assuming it survived the lightning strike that is.

+10
 

amlevin

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Two things that shouldn't be taxed: things to eat and a place to live.

That pretty much leaves Income and Sales taxes. Since Sales tax takes a higher portion of the lower income levels paycheck, I guess the only "fair tax" is the Income tax. Isn't that a cornerstone of Communism? You know the "each according to their ability, each according to their need" part?
 

Lovenox

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That pretty much leaves Income and Sales taxes. Since Sales tax takes a higher portion of the lower income levels paycheck, I guess the only "fair tax" is the Income tax. Isn't that a cornerstone of Communism? You know the "each according to their ability, each according to their need" part?


How so? Groceries already aren't taxed and I can control my spending I cannot control income tax..unless of course I refuse to work and get on the dole..
 

Metalhead47

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South Whidbey, Washington, USA
So where do you live? Unless you live in a "tent city" or somewhere else you can pitch a tent or park a trailer for free, you actually DO pay property taxes.

When you rent a house, apartment, condo, hotel/motel room, you are paying the property tax as it is factored into the "Rent". As someone who is intimately involved in rental property, I can assure you that as property tax increases, so does the rent.

What I would like to see WA State adopt is a similar program as exists in Arizona (and other states as well) where the value of a piece of property is established when you purchase it. That is the basis for all future property tax and it remains such until it is sold. This provides the homeowner two benefits. If they choose to stay in the property for a long time they aren't faced with tax creep. The other is that the Sale Price is the most accurate method of assessing a tax. The method used in WA, where comparable values based on similar property sales has too many chances for error as well as the possibility that Assessors inflate values in order to generate more revenue. This would keep "little old ladies" from getting kicked to the curb. If they and their husband bought the place sometime after WWII for $5,000 and today it's worth a million bucks, all the taxes they would have paid was on the basis of the original purchase price. When they die however, the heirs would have to pay on the basis of current value.

Do I see another "Tim Eyman Initiative" in this? Maybe soon.


Picky picky :p

Paying something that's an unknown percentage of my rent check (along with a bunch of other stuff I probably don't know about) is one thing, I just write out that same check to the property manager every month. Having to write the tax check to the gov't is entirely different, and much more infuriating in my mind. As I keep saying, CUT SPENDING AND WE WOULDN'T NEED A PROPERTY TAX TO FINANCE LEGITIMATE LOCAL SERVICES!

As long as we're bitching over what ought to be, how bout this?

Amendment(s) to state & federal Constitutions expressly forbidding any tax on owned property, specifically naming property tax, income tax, capital gains tax, estate tax, and thumb tax for good measure. Any new or increase in constitutionally legitimate taxes (tariffs, sales tax, gov't fees, etc) requires a 3/4 majority of both houses and the signature of the executive, whose veto in this case could not be overridden, and/or vote of 3/4 of the people, as well as specifically stating on such bill/initiative/proposition the constitutional authority for said tax, and the specific items to be funded by such (ie no robbing the transit tax to pay for fire dept after the fact).

Oh, and any politician who even thinks about proposing a property, income, estate, etc tax will be summarily tarred & feathered and deported to Canada where they tolerate that sort of thing.


SVG: Volunteer fire dept's have their place, as do privately contracted ones, as do community-funded (and yes even union) ones. One size don't fit all there. A volunteer fire dept works great here in lil' Freeland or rural NY where my wife grew up. It could NOT work in a major metropolitan area (Seattle, NYC, etc).
 

gogodawgs

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Federal Way, Washington, USA
Are you saying that he wouldn't have progressed to a Kindle? After all, we are talking about the man that took us from candles to electricity..:D

Of course Ben would have progressed. The concept of borrowing would of still been in place.

How so? Groceries already aren't taxed and I can control my spending I cannot control income tax..unless of course I refuse to work and get on the dole..

Groceries are taxed. Food may not be taxed at the user interface, but the companies still pay taxes and pass that on to the consumer.
 

amlevin

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When it comes to the idea that we could eliminate property taxes, ever hear the old expression "You can wish in one hand and $#!+ in the other. Which one do you think will fill up first?"?

Somehow I don't see them going anywhere in my lifetime.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
When it comes to the idea that we could eliminate property taxes, ever hear the old expression "You can wish in one hand and $#!+ in the other. Which one do you think will fill up first?"?

Somehow I don't see them going anywhere in my lifetime.

Not with reasoning like yours, glad you can afford it, many of us can't.

And no sales tax is way less communistic than property tax. You are taxing a lifestyle and the rich buy a lot more than the poor, so I don't really get that reasoning. Ummm what you are saying a little is not a little to me. Why should I be penalized for owning something?

Yea sorry guys I will go vent somewhere else, this definitely not on topic.
 

amlevin

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And no sales tax is way less communistic than property tax. You are taxing a lifestyle and the rich buy a lot more than the poor, so I don't really get that reasoning.

It is a proven fact and even taught in Economics classes that Sales Taxes are regressive. They tax the poor disproportionately . A person making enough to just get by will have a far greater part of their income taxed. Poor people tend to spend every dollar they make and everything they buy, except for food is taxed under a Sales Tax.

Rich people also buy things that are taxed and the more they buy the more they pay. What they don't pay tax on is their investments. Stocks, Bonds, Certificate's of Deposit, etc. They trade in Securities and make money. None of this income is subject to a sales tax, therefore a Rich Person pays a far lower percentage of his "Income" in Sales Tax even though they may buy more. They don't even pay income tax on property they sell if they merely roll the proceeds into a similar property. Ever wonder why so many wealthy seem to own apartments, shopping centers, and hotels?
 

Lovenox

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It is a proven fact and even taught in Economics classes that Sales Taxes are regressive. They tax the poor disproportionately . A person making enough to just get by will have a far greater part of their income taxed. Poor people tend to spend every dollar they make and everything they buy, except for food is taxed under a Sales Tax.

Rich people also buy things that are taxed and the more they buy the more they pay. What they don't pay tax on is their investments. Stocks, Bonds, Certificate's of Deposit, etc. They trade in Securities and make money. None of this income is subject to a sales tax, therefore a Rich Person pays a far lower percentage of his "Income" in Sales Tax even though they may buy more. They don't even pay income tax on property they sell if they merely roll the proceeds into a similar property. Ever wonder why so many wealthy seem to own apartments, shopping centers, and hotels?

Again, one can control thier spending habits, but one cannot, for the most part control thier income tax habits. Therefore the tangible items in life we need for sustinance shouldn't be taxed; food and a place to live. Some of these "rich people" would probably agree to a sales tax rather than paying a capital gains tax on investments or federal income tax period. This notion that somehow we are anchored to a real estate tax is erroneous. Why does government do opposite of what people seek to do in times of trouble? When you get in trouble financially you dont look to spend the same or MORE. No, you look to cut expenses not expand them. I am not under some misconception that we can or should eliminate taxes. They are a nessary evil. But when my mother-in-law (DSHS) tells me the state gives her a new computer every two years, illegal immigrants recieving entitlements, ferry workers making six figures, et al then that is the point of reference..then lets talk taxes. I would love to take the 1850.00 I am going to pay in real estate tax and pump it into the ecnomy rather than the dank abyss that is government.
 

amlevin

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Why does government do opposite of what people seek to do in times of trouble? When you get in trouble financially you dont look to spend the same or MORE. No, you look to cut expenses not expand them. I am not under some misconception that we can or should eliminate taxes. They are a nessary evil. But when my mother-in-law (DSHS) tells me the state gives her a new computer every two years, illegal immigrants recieving entitlements, ferry workers making six figures, et al then that is the point of reference..then lets talk taxes. I would love to take the 1850.00 I am going to pay in real estate tax and pump it into the ecnomy rather than the dank abyss that is government.

We do agree on some points. I don't feel that the basic real estate tax is the problem. Consider that you DO get to take this as a deduction on your Income Tax so based on your tax rate you are getting a discount from 10% to 35%.

What the root of the problem is the massive waste, the examples you gave being only some. What about the state's fleet of cars? Why are they being essentially replaced when the manufacturers warranty expires, only to be sold to private entities for another 200,000 miles or more of useful life? Add to the list the PDA's that are handed out, State Credit Cards that are misused. The State Auditor's report that points out waste but is ignored for political reasons.

We'll never see property taxes go away whether we like them or not. Even if we were to all revolt and toss the Tax Code away, we'd see them back in no time at all because there is no other realistic way to raise taxes for the basic services that essentially benefit the property taxed.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Ahhh but the rich pass the tax to the poor, like you brought out Metalhead is still paying his property tax. Having a place to live is a necessity and shouldn't be taxed. Especially when you deny peoples right to pursue happiness by taxing them out of something that makes them happy (owning a home for example).Now you may have a point in my book if it is investment property.

I think no matter how you cut it, a yearly property tax, is just wrong. And lets remember property does not just mean real estate, your are supposed to pay a yearly tax on everything you own.

Who here is paying the taxes on their tools, T.V.s, couches, household goods?
 

amlevin

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And lets remember property does not just mean real estate, your are supposed to pay a yearly tax on everything you own.

Who here is paying the taxes on their tools, T.V.s, couches, household goods?

Not so.

From the State Website:

Personal Property
Tax Exemptions
Personal property tax does not
apply to:
ƒ Household goods and personal
effects unless used in a business
activity.

ƒ Personal property owned by
governmental entities.
ƒ Business inventories including
goods for resale, ingredients or
components of articles
manufactured for sale, and
livestock. (Property held for lease/
rental is subject to tax.)
ƒ Custom software and modifications
to canned software.
ƒ Cargo containers used in interstate
commerce.
ƒ $15,000 of assessed value for
persons who qualify as head of
family; the assessor determines
who qualifies for this exemption.
ƒ Personal property accounts valued
at less than $500 (Those qualifying
for the $15,000 head of family
exemption do not qualify).

ƒ Property owned by nonprofit
organizations such as churches and
social service agencies; qualifying
entities must apply for the
exemption each year.
ƒ Property owned by schools.
ƒ Vehicles used or designed primarily
to be used on the public streets or
highways.

The only thing in your "list" that might be subject to the Personal Property tax is "Tool" if over the $15,000 HOH exemption.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
I guess being self employed, it applies more to me.

I like that clarification, the letter I seen from the state didn't make that clarification.

A developer I work for kept getting hit with "property" tax not including his real estate. And they did not show those exemptions in that letter, sneak state.
 

amlevin

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I guess being self employed, it applies more to me.

I like that clarification, the letter I seen from the state didn't make that clarification.

A developer I work for kept getting hit with "property" tax not including his real estate. And they did not show those exemptions in that letter, sneak state.

Shame on him for not investigating on his own. The state's website has all the info on what is, and what isn't subject to personal property tax. As for a business, anything that "is held for sale" is exempt. I used to sell equipment for the automotive industry. I had a customer that considered every piece of equipment in his shop to be "for sale" and avoided the property tax on it. He was clever and in his "Articles of Incorporation" he described his business to include the sale of automotive service equipment. This was back in Indiana and might not work the same here.
 
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