another phily story on OC they are going to check you papers

[sudden valley gunner]

Bit of a drama queen are we? Being asked for ID and checked to see if you are legally carrying the arm, isnt quiet the same as being raped.

No it's not its making a point. You seem to be claiming so many here are doing this to draw attention to themselves and "catch" the police. When most of us want to go about our own business an the police approach us.

My point was that a violation of your 4th is very very wrong seriously wrong.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

An arrest is a stop the courts and society have watered it down so much that we now have some arrests called "consensual contact" others "detainment" officer don't have to tell you why you are being arrested....etc.

You thinking it doesn't equate shows that you yourself don't get how important it is to us to remain safe in our persons and effects and the courts have stated that there is an important private interest in not surrending ID.

How much further do we let them go? I don't advocate violence at all, but the 2A was written to keep our government in check and is an implied threat of violence against tyrannical actions already.

Not all of us have the desire or will or money to run for office. So the way we fight against tryanny is by doing it in the streets. I personally take issue with those who take issue with that.

P.S. I don't carry ID or CPL with me, so good luck in getting it from me when you "detain me".

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Making "changes from up top"??

The flawed premise is that authority derives from "up top." I invite anyone who thinks like this to explore their axioms. The theory under which this nation was founded was that authority ultimately moves from the bottom up, not from the top down.

Anyway, the right to OC already exists. It does not need to be established "from up top." Some flawed laws need to be corrected, and changing them using the legislature to fix them is one possible strategy.

However, in the situation in Philly, the carrier was following those flawed laws. At that moment, he wasn't trying to change them. He wasn't looking to make a statement. He wasn't looking to have an encounter with the cops. And he certainly wasn't looking to have loaded weapons pointed at him. The problem in this case is 100% the police not following the law. No "change from the top" will fix this mess. This is one for the courts, where we, from the bottom, can effect powerful change.

Man you know its' bad when eye thinks this guy is a statist........ (no offense to you eye but you know how your feelings stand with many of us)

 

[sraacke]

I'm sick and tired of reading BS like
"or wandering the streets with cameras and recorders looking for cops to piss off," posted by people like j4l who keep posting derogatory remarks regarding the carrying and use of audio and/or video recorders by those of us who OC. He keeps harping on the fact that the OCer is out in public with a gun and a recorder trying to set up cops. That is not the case.
The OCer in Philly was going about his regular errands but, like many of us, carries a recorder to document any problems that may come up. That could include a lawful self defense shooting we may be forced into or it may be a verbal assault against us by another citizen.
Those of us who OC often hold ourselves to a high standard of behavior when in public. Our recorders provide proof of our actions should they be called into question. No guessing or trying to remember who said what, or he said/she said drama. It's recorded and is able to be used in our defence.
Yet j4l, and others, keep coming back to the fact that some of us carry recorders and try to use that as a way to paint us negativly.
We are not setting traps for the police. Heck, I personally avoid them as much as possible because I never know when I may encounter a flake like the one which started this encounter. We carry recorders for the same reason we carry guns, protection.
If j4l and others like him have a problem with that they can take their ball and go the heck home. I'm tired of reading their garbage. They are no friends of ours and we are better off without them.

 

[kadar]

As for the officers not obeying the laws themselves, that's the other half of the reason for getting folks into place to be the ones making the laws. Include in the legislation penalties for LE's who behave like this. Effective changes can be made if properly legislated. But continue leaving it to the folks are currently doing so, and you arent going to have any possibility of that option, are you?

Criminals do not obey the law. Why do you think that making more laws will cure the problem?

 

[j4l]

I'm sick and tired of reading BS like
"or wandering the streets with cameras and recorders looking for cops to piss off," posted by people like j4l who keep posting derogatory remarks regarding the carrying and use of audio and/or video recorders by those of us who OC. He keeps harping on the fact that the OCer is out in public with a gun and a recorder trying to set up cops. That is not the case.
The OCer in Philly was going about his regular errands but, like many of us, carries a recorder to document any problems that may come up. That could include a lawful self defense shooting we may be forced into or it may be a verbal assault against us by another citizen.
Those of us who OC often hold ourselves to a high standard of behavior when in public. Our recorders provide proof of our actions should they be called into question. No guessing or trying to remember who said what, or he said/she said drama. It's recorded and is able to be used in our defence.
Yet j4l, and others, keep coming back to the fact that some of us carry recorders and try to use that as a way to paint us negativly.
We are not setting traps for the police. Heck, I personally avoid them as much as possible because I never know when I may encounter a flake like the one which started this encounter. We carry recorders for the same reason we carry guns, protection.
If j4l and others like him have a problem with that they can take their ball and go the heck home. I'm tired of reading their garbage. They are no friends of ours and we are better off without them.

Again, this assumption-rather than an objective look at what is and isnt know about the clip. What went on prior to the recording beginning? That's right, we dont know, do we?

My other issue with folks going on and on and on about such recordings is the many instances of people adivising others to do so-without bothering to see if it is even legal to do so where that person lives and moves about. Would I be more, or less of a jerk to maybe advise that same person to double-check the legality of doing so first?

Even if, the person avoids making a fool of himself on the clips, and even manages to avoid any gun-related charges, a person doing so where it is not legal can instead find themselves facing other legal charges.
Those other legal charges-in some States -end up being more than just a misdemeanor and a minor fine for permit violations. In some cases they can result in as much as 5 yrs imprisonment and $5k or more in fines. Does it happen often? No,not yet.
But keep on this path that so many call for here, and it wont be long.

Even worse, it may well encourage other States to follow the path of Illinois on this topic.Then what will you do with your recorders? Will you still be as likely to be doing this approach?

Stay tuned to the Leon County case that's about to begin soon.The outcome for that one should be very interesting indeed.

 

[MKEgal]

They need to be shut down cold by repeated lawsuits, and public protests which make it too painful to continue being criminals, which is EXACTLY what they are.

AMEN!
Not all LEOs are criminals, but there are too many who are, & those are the people (& their departments that don't properly train them) who need to be hit with lawsuit after lawsuit until they learn the proper attitude & behaviour patterns.
(Hint - what happened to Mr. Fiorino in Philly is an example of improper attiude & behaviour.)
I hear that LEOs in places like AZ & UT both follow & enforce the laws, & citizens generally have no complaints.

IF any of these clowns would follow-through afterwards with the legal-recourse available to them instead of just whining about it on the internet.

I was under the impression that Mr. Fiorino is planning a federal 1983 (civil rights) suit.

How many of these have gone to the point of a civil suit against the depts.?
How many have won, if they did?

Well, only speaking for the ones I know about here in Wisconsin (which surely is a very small subset of the national total)...:
West Allis (filed & won)
Racine (filed & won)
Brookfield (filed & won)
Madison (in the works)

I'm using "filed and won" to include both cases where there was a court judgment against the city and cases where the city decided it didn't have a case so it paid the wronged citizen to drop the suit.

 

[j4l]

AMEN!
Not all LEOs are criminals, but there are too many who are, & those are the people (& their departments that don't properly train them) who need to be hit with lawsuit after lawsuit until they learn the proper attitude & behaviour patterns.
(Hint - what happened to Mr. Fiorino in Philly is an example of improper attiude & behaviour.)
I hear that LEOs in places like AZ & UT both follow & enforce the laws, & citizens generally have no complaints.


I was under the impression that Mr. Fiorino is planning a federal 1983 (civil rights) suit.


Well, only speaking for the ones I know about here in Wisconsin (which surely is a very small subset of the national total)...:
West Allis (filed & won)
Racine (filed & won)
Brookfield (filed & won)
Madison (in the works)

I'm using "filed and won" to include both cases where there was a court judgment against the city and cases where the city decided it didn't have a case so it paid the wronged citizen to drop the suit.

Very good, and thank you for providing-most others are unable/unwilling to do anything other than cry foul at having their tactics criticised,without bothering to back up WHY their idea "works". Any links though, that we can read up on?

 

[MKEgal]

What Im criticizing is his behavior... and the resulting publicity stunt nonsense that follows.
By all means,carry your guns-but go on about your regular day-to-day biz like normal.
Dont go ranting in the streets about it, drawing police attention so you can record it and make a scene of it.

His behavior? Walking to the store is somehow wrong?
Offering to show the officer his permit was wrong?
Trying to explain the law was wrong?
He was going about his normal buisness. It's the police that caused the problem.
He didn't call attention to anything, until after the fact. That's not a publicity stunt, that's exposing the bad actions of public servants, actions that were illegal six ways from Sunday and need to be stopped.

to get the cop's anxiety ratcheted up so high to begin with.

He was walking to the store.
He had a pistol in a holster.
He did nothing to alarm the officer. The officer caused his own alarm.

If the officer had been a professional, he would have known about research like the FBI publication in AUG06 titled "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers" which says that criminals don't OC and practically never use holsters. (IIRC, that's in chapter 4.)

He would have been aware of the laws in PA and known that OC was legal.
It's even legal in Philly, with a permit, so at most he could have requested to see the permit.
He also would have been aware of the decades of non-events across the country, showing that lawfully-armed citizens don't cause problems. (And having read the FBI study, he would know that someone carrying openly is extremely unlikely to be a criminal.)

 

[kadar]

Again, this assumption-rather than an objective look at what is and isnt know about the clip. What went on prior to the recording beginning? That's right, we dont know, do we?

2 minutes of silence was at the beginning. What you hear is the beginning of the incident.

 

[MKEgal]

Any links though, that we can read up on?

For the various court documents relating to Madison & Brookfield, go to the "legal" tab of www.wisconsincarry.org

Here's an article about Brookfield. ($7500 settlement.)
BTW - that's me they're talking about. So when you make slurs on OCers ("clowns", "whining"), & complain that when we're arrested we don't do something about it, I take it personally.

Here's an article about Madison. (Suit in progress.)

Here's a newspaper article about West Allis, back when the suit was filed. (Maybe it's still "in progress" - can't find a followup article.)

Here's a newspaper article about Racine. ($10,000 judgment.)

BTW... you could easily have googled "[city name] wisconsin" "open carry" lawsuit
and come up with articles on all these incidents.

 

[j4l]

2 minutes of silence was at the beginning. What you hear is the beginning of the incident.

I can take any recording you want-in any format, and insert as many minutes you want-of silence- to the beginning,end or anywhere else you want it, in Audacity or any other DAW software.
This proves...? Exactly.Zilch.
Which is yet another problem with these recordings. Short of the original files -stored on the original recording device and un-altered in any way, AND valided with at least an MD-5 hash, there is no real way to authenticate the recordings.
Those arent my personal requirements, those are what a court uses to validate-or invalidate the legitimacy of any of that sort of forsensics.

 

[j4l]

For the various court documents relating to Madison & Brookfield, go to the "legal" tab of www.wisconsincarry.org

Here's an article about Brookfield. ($7500 settlement.)
BTW - that's me they're talking about. So when you make slurs on OCers ("clowns", "whining"), & complain that when we're arrested we don't do something about it, I take it personally.

Here's an article about Madison. (Suit in progress.)

Here's a newspaper article about West Allis, back when the suit was filed. (Maybe it's still "in progress" - can't find a followup article.)

Here's a newspaper article about Racine. ($10,000 judgment.)

BTW... you could easily have googled "[city name] wisconsin" "open carry" lawsuit
and come up with articles on all these incidents.

All well and good. Wheres' the recording though? If it doesnt pertain to you, then Im not talking about you, am I? Carry on.

 

[kadar]

I can take any recording you want-in any format, and insert as many minutes you want-of silence- to the beginning,end or anywhere else you want it, in Audacity or any other DAW software.
This proves...? Exactly.Zilch.
Which is yet another problem with these recordings. Short of the original files -stored on the original recording device and un-altered in any way, AND valided with at least an MD-5 hash, there is no real way to authenticate the recordings.
Those arent my personal requirements, those are what a court uses to validate-or invalidate the legitimacy of any of that sort of forsensics.

I am not proving anything. You asked a question and I replied.

I am not aware of any consumer grade recorder that produces an MD-5 hash upon completion of a recording. Please show me one that preforms this.

 

[MKEgal]

So the "lets get on video having our asses handed to us while looking like raving lunatics" bit is going to do more harm to the cause...

The only raving lunatic I've heard on that audio was the officer (were the officers).
Mark did nothing wrong. He knew the law better than they did, & did his best to comply with it & explain it to them.

Being asked for ID and checked to see if you are legally carrying the arm, isn't quite the same as being raped.

Either way, my right to be secure in my person & possessions has been violated.
Not completely sure which is worse - a garden-variety criminal, or one with a badge & the DA supporting him.

I think the one acting under color of law is worse, because not only did he violate my right to be secure, a right which is protected from gov't intrusion, he did it under color of law - using the power given him by the people in order to help keep us safe.

 

[j4l]

I am not proving anything. You asked a question and I replied.

I am not aware of any consumer grade recorder that produces an MD-5 hash upon completion of a recording. Please show me one that preforms this.

All digital and computer media -be it media files,images, or even word documents produce an md-5 hash. Extracting it is done by means of other software.

For those of you who insist on continuing the practice of these recordings,this would be a smart item to have,just in case. But remember to keep original recordings as they are- and do NOT record anything else after that recording on the same device.
http://www.md5hashgenerator.com/

 

[kadar]

All digital and computer media -be it media files,images, or even word documents produce an md-5 hash. Extracting it is done by means of other software.

For those of you who insist on continuing the practice of these recordings,this would be a smart item to have,just in case. But remember to keep original recordings as they are- and do NOT record anything else after that recording on the same device.
http://www.md5hashgenerator.com/

None of them produce an MD5 hash.
An MD5 hash is generated after the fact to "fingerprint" a file. Its used to verify that one copy of a file is identical to another.

 

[Aknazer]

I can take any recording you want-in any format, and insert as many minutes you want-of silence- to the beginning,end or anywhere else you want it, in Audacity or any other DAW software.
This proves...? Exactly.Zilch.
Which is yet another problem with these recordings. Short of the original files -stored on the original recording device and un-altered in any way, AND valided with at least an MD-5 hash, there is no real way to authenticate the recordings.
Those arent my personal requirements, those are what a court uses to validate-or invalidate the legitimacy of any of that sort of forsensics.

So now you're going to saying that the beginning wasn't published (as that's what you're implying by saying we don't know/have the beginning of the encounter), to saying that you think the beginning of the tape was altered to only show the cops illegal behavior? Keep grasping at straws.

Also if this wasn't how the encounter started then why haven't the cops made a statement that it's an altered tape? Given the negative publicity this has generated for the Philly PD they would have put something out about it being altered if this wasn't how it actually happened.

 

[Dreamer]

Which is yet another problem with these recordings. Short of the original files -stored on the original recording device and un-altered in any way, AND valided with at least an MD-5 hash, there is no real way to authenticate the recordings.
Those arent my personal requirements, those are what a court uses to validate-or invalidate the legitimacy of any of that sort of forsensics.

COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Personal attack / inappropriate

 

[Dreamer]

Let me play "devil's advocate" for a moment.

What might happen if a "senior citizen" is OC'ing like the person this thread is about and is accosted in much the same manner. What might happen if this senior is ordered to the ground but tells the officer that, because of arthritic joints, bad back, etc., explains to the officer that they are incapable of getting down on the ground?
What's going to happen then?

Immediate deployment of a Tazer, and then the Officer will pile on the charges of "resisting arrest", "assault on an officer", and "failure to obey a lawful command", and probably "disorderly conduct" just for good measure.

And the elderly citizen would probably also be charged with "illegal possession of controlled substances" if they were carrying any prescriptions that were not in their pharmacy-issued bottles, just to show them who's REALLY boss.

Because THAT is how they roll in Philly...

 

[Venator]

You are right.

The stink of rape can be washed off with soap and antiseptics. And when a rapist is done, he leaves you alone and goes away.

The stench of tyranny can only be cleansed with a liquid more sanguine, and tyrants only INCREASE their assaults once you comply...

Pure poetry, well done!