Are mandatory training classes for OC overkill?

[Nevada carrier]

I don't need to take a class to go to church, vote, remain silent, confront an accuser or be secure in my person, property or home. Why should I be required to take a class to bear arms?

 

[eye95]

I don't need to take a class to go to church, vote, remain silent, confront an accuser or be secure in my person, property or home. Why should I be required to take a class to bear arms?

You're right. You should not be required to take a class to exercise a right.

However, folks who go to church routinely attend classes on the practice of their faith. Folks who vote (at least those who want to cast an informed vote) study the candidates and the issues. We here constantly discuss how to exercise our rights if ever accused of a crime.

We would be as remiss as a church member who never learns his faith, as a voter who votes in ignorance, or as a defendant who knows nothing of his rights, if we weren't to train in the use of the firearm that we carry.

 

[palerider116]

+1 Eye95

With something that has potential criminal and civil liabilities attached, its unwise to be untrained. Secondly, if you shoot and kill an innocent bystander, you have violated their fourth amendment rights.

No one can legislate you to be responsible, but they sure can legislate some consequences.

 

[Grapeshot]

+1 Eye95
No one can legislate you to be responsible, but they sure can legislate some consequences.

Therein lies much of the problem - they attempt to legislate morality, responsibility et al, which is most frequently subjunctive in any event.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Secondly, if you shoot and kill an innocent bystander, you have violated their fourth amendment rights.

No one can legislate you to be responsible, but they sure can legislate some consequences.

If you happen to hit an innocent party while defending yourself, it is not you who would be criminally liable but rather your attacker. Unfortunately, this is not to say that you would be exempt from civil liabilities.

I am sure most of us on this website agree to and are in favor of people who chose to go armed, also arm themselves with knowledge and training. However, I would also imagine most do not want to see something like this be required and/or legislated and forced in any way. Rights that become subject to such requirements are no longer rights at all but privileges and as such, can be taken away at the whim or discretion of the powers that be. A very dangerous path to go down.

 

[Sonora Rebel]

All of this 'classroom training' crap is a direct result of state mandated requirements to obtain a CCW permit. And... pray tell who jumped on the cash-cow bandwagon to provide 'instructors' but the good ol' NRA. It soon became a business. The media added to the mystique of firearms with nonsensical propaganda about 'training'... as it was some magical talent beyond mere mortals. Why? Because 'guns' have been demonized since the Kennedy assassination.

Guns began to become an anethma in the public mind.... and was kept so due to further infamous criminal incidents. This drumbeat was the first ever heard in the subconscious minds of the masses who are now in adulthood and positions of political power. Permit and Registration became associated with the very ownership if firearms... even tho registration is not practiced in most states. I even hear it from time to time from the TV 'talking heads' in Arizona. To 'have a gun'... or to actually carry one are automatically associated with 'permit'. Not everyone lives in AK, VT, AZ, NM or CO. People still think OC is done in Texas. I dunno how many times I've been asked by some noob... 'Do you have a permit for 'that'? (As tho it were their business anyway... )

In all this the meaning of the 2A was lost. Several state constitutions have guaranteed the right to bear arms since statehood (and prior) but it's amazing how many people born and raised in those states have been mindlessly brainwashed by this anecdotal permit requirement myth. Amazing how much of the country functioned with armed citizens going ther merry way... willy-nilly armed as they will, w/no required 'training' for 2 centuries. OC in public...? No permit? Heaven forbid!

 

[Grapeshot]

If you happen to hit an innocent party while defending yourself, it is not you who would be criminally liable but rather your attacker. Unfortunately, this is not to say that you would be exempt from civil liabilities.

I am sure most of us on this website agree to and are in favor of people who chose to go armed, also arm themselves with knowledge and training. However, I would also imagine most do not want to see something like this be required and/or legislated and forced in any way. Rights that become subject to such requirements are no longer rights at all but privileges and as such, can be taken away at the whim or discretion of the powers that be. A very dangerous path to go down.

Assuredly, there is a reason that such slippery slopes are made that way by the generous application of a foul and malodorous, sticky substance. :uhoh:

 

[palerider116]

Its a very dangerous path to tread. Its better that we encourage each other and help each other in regards to training. Mandatory training at best would eliminate the variety that exists at the present.

 

[wrightme]

It isn't just that. But, it is a likely part of it.

It is no where near as common for children to be raised as I was, around firearms on a farm. To those that have not been raised around them, it sure DOES make sense to at least have training available. For a poor analogy, even automobile licenses don't really require training, but they sure should. They DO require a test, but mostly a test of law; as opposed to ability.

All of this 'classroom training' crap is a direct result of state mandated requirements to obtain a CCW permit. And... pray tell who jumped on the cash-cow bandwagon to provide 'instructors' but the good ol' NRA. It soon became a business. The media added to the mystique of firearms with nonsensical propaganda about 'training'... as it was some magical talent beyond mere mortals. Why? Because 'guns' have been demonized since the Kennedy assassination.
Guns began to become an anethma in the public mind.... and was kept so due to further infamous criminal incidents. This drumbeat was the first ever heard in the subconscious minds of the masses who are now in adulthood and positions of political power. Permit and Registration became associated with the very ownership if firearms... even tho registration is not practiced in most states. I even hear it from time to time from the TV 'talking heads' in Arizona. To 'have a gun'... or to actually carry one are automatically associated with 'permit'. Not everyone lives in AK, VT, AZ, NM or CO. People still think OC is done in Texas. I dunno how many times I've been asked by some noob... 'Do you have a permit for 'that'? (As tho it were their business anyway... )

In all this the meaning of the 2A was lost. Several state constitutions have guaranteed the right to bear arms since statehood (and prior) but it's amazing how many people born and raised in those states have been mindlessly brainwashed by this anecdotal permit requirement myth. Amazing how much of the country functioned with armed citizens going ther merry way... willy-nilly armed as they will, w/no required 'training' for 2 centuries. OC in public...? No permit? Heaven forbid!

 

[Grapeshot]

It isn't just that. But, it is a likely part of it.

It is no where near as common for children to be raised as I was, around firearms on a farm. To those that have not been raised around them, it sure DOES make sense to at least have training available. For a poor analogy, even automobile licenses don't really require training, but they sure should. They DO require a test, but mostly a test of law; as opposed to ability.

No test or training required to exercise the 1st Amendment rights, but there have been times when I............

 

[palerider116]

And the pen is mightier than the sword...but not the 10mm.

 

[Grapeshot]

And the pen is mightier than the sword...but not the 10mm.

Agent19 would concur.

 

[Nevada carrier]

You're right. You should not be required to take a class to exercise a right.

However, folks who go to church routinely attend classes on the practice of their faith. Folks who vote (at least those who want to cast an informed vote) study the candidates and the issues. We here constantly discuss how to exercise our rights if ever accused of a crime.

We would be as remiss as a church member who never learns his faith, as a voter who votes in ignorance, or as a defendant who knows nothing of his rights, if we weren't to train in the use of the firearm that we carry.

I think you understand my point. I would not be a responsible person if I did not learn how to exercise a right. But then theres a complicated underlying issue. It appalls me that civics is no longer a requisite for a high school diploma in many school districts. Then again, I don't like the idea institutions that have already established a clear and unwaivering left leaning bias teaching our children ideas founded on principals that their bias opposes.

Everyone should train in the safe and effective use of firearms, but that training shouldn't be mandated by law.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

I think that ALL OC'rs should study up on gun retention. Should it be mandatory, no. But I think that ALL OC'rs should study up on gun retention. A course should be offered.

 

[SGB]

Mandatory - NO

Advisable - YES

 

[since9]

You're right. You should not be required to take a class to exercise a right.

I disagree. I think a class is not necessary, but an understanding is absolutely paramount! How else can any foreigner and citizen candidate understand the decision they're making?

However, folks who go to church routinely attend classes on the practice of their faith. Folks who vote (at least those who want to cast an informed vote) study the candidates and the issues.

I've certainly been a huge part of that.

We here constantly discuss how to exercise our rights if ever accused of a crime.

Not so much, eye95, as never been there, never done that. Hope never to face the heat, and would very much like to avoid such an encounter with the law if at all possible, to the point of having contacted them more than a year ago to establish normal relations.

We would be as remiss as a church member who never learns his faith, as a voter who votes in ignorance, or as a defendant who knows nothing of his rights, if we weren't to train in the use of the firearm that we carry.

 

[eye95]

1. I thought I was the lone member of your ignore list.

2. You disagree with my saying classes should not be mandatory, then you say that classes are not necessary, then you say that "understanding" is. How do I get off this ride?

3. You may not discuss what to do during a stop, a detention, or an arrest, but many of us do. Regularly. Even those who have never been stopped. I would not have had an inkling of how to handle my first stop had I not "trained" here. My second stop went even better because I continued to train.

 

[40s-and-wfan]

Thank you for bringing this most salient of questions to the top of the consciousness here on Open Carry Dot Org.

No, mandatory training classes are NOT overkill, and neither is a mandatory permitting for carry unreasonable as various courts have held on many occasions. Consider the balance between responsible and irresponsible comments and rhetoric here as being similar to the responsibility of armed civilians.

I know that there are many that believe as I do, many here in Wisconsin and many in national gun control organizations. Thank you for raising the issue.

You Sir, are the exact reason I OC. Mandatory training and mandatory licensing are the first steps to government control of armed citizens and arms ownership. If mandatory licensing and training go into affect, then the government will suddenly start to charge what they want for the courses and the licensing and will make it nearly impossible for everyone but the rich Obama Campaign Contributors to obtain. I will not subject myself to mandatory training or licensing. I have been carrying for longer than I can remember and have not participated, nor have I even heard of any mandatory training in my area. If it's here, then I guess I will become an outlaw.
Any further responses you have Sir, regarding the necessity for mandatory licensing, training or anything else along those lines can be taken somewhere else. I don't want to see or hear from the likes of you again. You can take your anti-gun, anti-self-defense, anti-armed-citizen, anti-constitutional-right agenda to someone or someplace that cares because you won't find the likes of that here!!

 

[Citizen]

I think that ALL OC'rs should study up on gun retention. Should it be mandatory, no. But I think that ALL OC'rs should study up on gun retention. A course should be offered.

Citizen's Course on Gun Retention

Module 1


Citizen: "Hand me your gun."

Smart Student: "Kiss off, a$$hole."

Dumb Student: "Uh, OK. Here." <hands over gun>


Smart Student passed with the correct answer. Dumb student failed, and is being sent to remedial gun safety training for not first clearing the weapon before handing it to the instructor.


End of module.


Please remit the course module fee to Citizen. Other modules will be released from time to time.

Note that course fees are not tax-deductible. In lieu of paying the fee, students may make a donation to OCDO.

 

[Grapeshot]

Citizen's Course on Gun Retention

Note that course fees are not tax-deductible. In lieu of paying the fee, students may make a donation to OCDO.

Better yet make a donation to Legal-Defense-fund-for-Skidmark and Citizen will provide one-on-one tutoring. :lol:

Note: Have received nothing from Mr. Helmke yet.