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Are you obligated to give a LEO ID/ Permit?

aadvark

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KingFish and Fallschirmjager:

True..., Indeed, but, NOT having in Ones' Persons' Possession a Georgia Weapons Carry License MAY be Construed as such Person NOT having such License.

If The Requirement were not as I have Spoke of it, then..., [W]hy would The Legislature Consider its Repeal?

I do, however; Agree with The General Application of Georgia Law 16-11-36 as it Relates to 'Stop-and-ID' Situations in Georgia, and having said that..., Open Carry of a Loaded Weapon in Public is NOT Grounds to Detain a Person in Violation of Their Constitutional Rights, as is Settled Case Law under Jones vs. The State of Georgia.

aadvark
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
I would say that the repeal is an attempt to clarify the law, as we can all see there IS some confusion as to whether or not there is a statutory requirement to Produce as well as to Possess.

The matter of possession is also up for debate.
If for some reason a person is arrested for an offense and his car is towed, and a kilo of cocaine is discovered in the trunk is that person guilty of 'possession' if he was 100 yards away from his car at the time?

Now, if for some reason a person is the same person in 'possession' or not in possession of his GWL if the GWL is sitting on top of the kilo of coke at the time of arrest?

Same circumstance, so how could one not be in possession of a GWL and yet in possession of contraband when they are both in the same relative location?


Let me ask, do you possess a Bible?
Do you still possess a Bible if it's in the nightstand drawer and you are 30 miles away at work? What if you are cross-country at WallyWorld, do you still possess that same Bible?
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Location
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I'm tempted to point towards OCGA 40-5-29
40-5-29. License to be carried and exhibited on demand

(a) Every licensee shall have his driver's license in his immediate possession at all times when operating a motor vehicle.

(b) Every licensee shall display his license upon the demand of a law enforcement officer. A refusal to comply with such demand not only shall constitute a violation of this subsection but shall also give rise to a presumption of a violation of subsection (a) of this Code section and of Code Section 40-5-20.

(c) A person convicted of a violation of subsection (a) of this Code section shall be fined no more than $10.00 if he produces in court a license theretofore issued to him and valid at the time of his arrest.


* I do rather like sub-section (c), producing the license at court only nets a $10.oo "Don't do that anymore" reminder. THAT should definitely be incorporated into the GA firearms law.
** Unfortunately, there does not seem to be a legal definition of "immediate possession". Does that mean within arm's reach? If I've been swimming and my wallet is in my gym bag in the trunk am I in violation of 40-5-20? I don't physically need a license while driving, only while stopped by law enforcement.
 
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evomx5

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Sep 28, 2011
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Ellenwood, GA
For what it's worth, here is a letter from John Monroe, attorney for GeorgiaCarry.org, about a GCO member that was detained by a Paulding County deputy on the Silver Comet Trail. This is his interpretation of how the law should be applied. This was posted on GCO's website so I hope it is ok to re-post here. I think it is something all GA carriers should know.


JOHN R. MONROE
ATTORNEY AT LAW
March 15, 2011

Mr. J. Jayson Phillips, Esq.
Talley, Richardson & Cable, FA.
367 West Memorial Drive
Dallas, GA 30132

RE: Carrying Firearms on the Silver Comet Trail

Dear Mr. Phillips:

I am writing you on behalf of my client, GeorgiaCarry.Org, Inc. (GCO"). GCO is a non-profit corporation whose primary mission is to foster the rights of its members to keep and bear arms.

I have been made aware of a recent email exchange between a GCO member (Robert Massie) and you, regarding an incident where a Paulding deputy stopped Mr. Massie on the Silver Comet Trail. During the encounter, the deputy demanded Mr. Massie's Georgia weapons carry license ("GWL") and his driver's license. In response to Mr. Massie's complaint about his detention, you stated that the deputy had "articulable suspicion to reasonably detain you to verify that you had [a GWL] on your person...."

I disagree with your conclusion and therefore ask you to reconsider it and advise your clients appropriately. Your reference to O.C.G.A. § 16-11-126(h)(1) might be causing some confusion. That statute makes it a crime to carry a weapon without a valid GWL. It does not, as you suggest, make it a crime to carry a weapon unless the carrier has in his possession a GWL. While the two descriptions might seem interchangeable, they have very different criminal procedure implications. Your construction implies that it generally is a crime to carry a weapon, but that there is an exception for GWL holders. That is, your construction implies that possession of a GWL is an affirmative defense to a prosecution of carrying a weapon.

The actual construction of the statute makes clear that the lack of a license is an element of the crime that must be proven by the state. See, for example, Head v. State, 235 Ga. 677 (1975), in which the Supreme Court of Georgia reversed a conviction for carrying a pistol without a license when the state had introduced no evidence that the defendant did not have a license. The Court emphasized that lack of a license is an element of the crime.

Because the lack of a license is an element of the crime, an officer may not stop a person seen carrying a firearm just to see if the person has a GWL. Compare this situation to Delaware, v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 663 (1979) ("[We hold that except in those situations in which there is at least articulable and reasonable suspicion that a motorist is unlicensed..., stopping an automobile and detaining the driver in order to check his driver's license and the registration of the automobile are unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment."). See also Florida v. J.L, 529 U.S. 266 (2000) (holding that there is no firearms exception to the Fourth Amendment). If an officer may not stop a motorist to see if the motorist has a license, and there is no firearms exception to the Fourth Amendment, and if the lack of a GWL is an element of the crime and not an affirmative defense, it stands to reason that an officer may not stop an armed citizen just to see if the citizen has a GWL

I am mindful that you also cited to the GWL licensing statute, OC.G.A. § 16-11-129, for the proposition that a person with a GWL must carry the GWL on his person when carrying a weapon. There is, however, no penalty for failure to do so. Even if there were, the deputy had no reason to believe either that Mr. Massie has no GWL or was failing to carry it on his person.

I urge you to reconsider your conclusions and advise your clients to cease such practices. Please call or email me at john.monroe1@.earthlink.com if you have any questions.
 
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