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Ares Armor and Their Fight with the "The Man".

FreeInAZ

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Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
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Secret Bunker
Ah, the truth comes out. I see 80% receivers everywhere. heck, theyre on amazon. Ares was flying too close the sun and got burned. Sucks tho.

Many say the same thing about OCers. We flaunt our 2A rights, never mind that OC is a legal activity. Seems Ares is following the law & has been all along. So to me the ATF are the ones acting criminally. Why the sudden urge to force registry (that's what form 4473 amounts to) of these lowers? Maybe they (Gov.) have an agenda and want to know where the "not yet firearms" are at? It is none of there damn business, I say. Next they want all reloaders to have to register their presses/powder/bullets etc...

Good on Ares! I see this as a "we will crush a few little guys who can't afford to stand up to our giant government machine, then the others will comply out of fear" .. tactic at play here. They are trying to bankrupt Ares for daring to defy their authority.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ
I'm going to send Ares a few dollars as a gift. Hopefully if others do the same it will help them fight off the goons in government. To date they have had equipment / inventory taken, property damaged, forced to close while repairing said damages ... this is clearly designed to drive their business into failing. To date Ares (a very small company) has had to pay over $20,000 to fight this. While God only knows how much the government has spent trying to force them into giving them their customers lists, which they have no legal right to. :confused:
 
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davidmcbeth

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Have no fear former customers of mine .... I did not keep records like those that the AFT stole .... I knew better

Anyone selling 80% lowers should not keep records that would ID they buyers ... one is not required to...
 
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Alsherry

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Puyallup, Washington, United States
More Info from the News Machine

Ah, the truth comes out. I see 80% receivers everywhere. heck, theyre on amazon. Ares was flying too close the sun and got burned. Sucks tho.

"'Tis better to have flown and got burned than to have never had the change to fly at all." ;)


More news with Ares Armor. There has been some more info coming out speculating on events and reasons leading up the this event with Ares Armor and the raids. 2 things seem to stick out to me.

1. Illegal "Build Parties"

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/ares-armor-search-warrant-sheds-light-reason-atf-raid/

"So from the documents, it looks like these guys (LCG AR Parts and Custom Accessories, or “LCG”) employed an illegal Mexican immigrant who’s also a felon to assist customers in manufacturing firearms on the business’s premises [for a fee]. The employee in question allegedly would set the blank up in the drill press, instruct the customer in drilling out the holes, then then take it from there."

The BATFE feels that, because some other companies in the state are participating in illegal, questionable activities, or associating itself with highly criminal persons, that Ares Armor is OBVIOUSLY doing the same thing, of course. "Guilty by Association" in order to carry out a clearly illegal and restraining order violating warrant on a legal and law-abiding business to carry out an illegal phishing expedition for a businesses private customer information isn't a justification for violating a citizen's or a business' Constitutional 4th Amendment rights. According to what I've seen, Ares Armor is reviewing/changing how it carries out its "build parties" in order to ensure that they are not violating any laws in doing so, and even informed the BATFE as such.

2. The "Fake 80%" EP Armory Polymer 80% Lower Receivers

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/ares-armor-update-skinny-polymer-80-lower-receivers/

"The claim to fame for these models is that the lower receivers are two different colors — one color for the receiver itself, and a completely different color for the parts that need to be milled out to complete the gun. It’s the equivalent of a “paint by numbers” approach to firearms manufacturing, making the process nearly idiot-proof." - "According to the ATF’s “once a gun always a gun” doctrine, the instant the lower is milled out and completed it’s officially a firearm and subject to all of the applicable laws. Even if you go back and fill in the relevant sections, it’s still a gun that you just manufactured and must be treated as such."

What I get from this article is that there is a disagreement between certain manufacturers and the BATFE on the legal precedent of the exact point a firearm is completed to the point that it needs to be officially registered as a firearm.
If, for instance, the Fire Control Group cavity of an AR-15 is created out of one color of material, and then the rest of the firearm is then cast around that existing piece of material in a different color, then the casting would have never been milled into a legal firearm at anytime, but would still have 2 different colors of material, working as a guide for the customer to mill out the last 20% themselves easier.
Or, as another example, if a manufacture mills out the Fire Control Group cavity of an 80% Lower Receiver, but NOT the holes for the Hammer, Trigger Pins, Selector Switch, or the Trigger, and then refills the cavity with a different color material, then does to qualify to the "once a gun always a gun” doctrine? The firearm had been completed more than the "80%" point at one point, but was never completed to the 100% point, so the firearm could have never possibly be used as a completed firearm, and shouldn't have to be registered as such. Is an "81%" complete firearm considered a firearm on a register-able level?

On a lighter note,

Ares Armor has seem to have taken everything that has happened with a grain of salt, and even played in some serious humor about the situation.
BATFE-INSPECTED-LOGO.jpg10012555_800787376617495_1475591684_n.jpg1939589_800741639955402_142166224_o.jpg10004024_800677319961834_1253695918_n.jpg1510914_800711929958373_264863493_n.jpg
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
The day the ACLU stands up for the 2nd Amendment rights of American citizens, is the day that I'll get The ACLU Card. So. That'll pretty much never happen.

What you really need to work on is the "not talking out your ass" thing. :p

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06/new-aclu-lawsuit-expand-south-dakota-gun-rights/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/daniel-zimmerman/aclu-sues-to-get-ri-man-his-guns/
http://lansdale.patch.com/groups/po...suing-philadelphia-police-for-retald05ab7e093
http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-v...a-claims-nsa-illegally-created-a-gun-database

I imagine we'll be seeing pics of your new card in the near future.
 
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Alsherry

Regular Member
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Jun 29, 2013
Messages
50
Location
Puyallup, Washington, United States

Well then, fair enough. I stand corrected.

As you show, while the ACLU is willing to stand up for the even the 2A rights of citizens, in my opinion, they don't defend it on principle, more as to be consistent. Stuff like this is the reason I don't look up the the ACLU as beacon of hope for the advancement of 2nd Amendment rights for citizens. Defense? Sure. Advancement? I disagree.
 
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marshaul

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Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
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Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Well then, fair enough. I stand corrected. I'll remove that part of my comment if it bothers you that much.

As you show, while the ACLU is willing to stand up for the even the 2A rights of citizens, in my opinion, they don't defend it on principle, more as to be consistent. Stuff like this is the reason I don't look up the the ACLU as beacon of hope for the advancement of 2nd Amendment rights for citizens. Defense? Sure. Advancement? I disagree.

I'm not bothered, and I don't have any strong attachment to the ACLU one way or the other (although anybody who makes a habit out of opposing government is probably OK in my book).

You just walked right into that one is all, and I couldn't really go and let you walk back out, now could I? Gotta stay on your feet around here! That or grow thick skin. :lol:

Sorry if I can be an ass. ;)
 
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Alsherry

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2013
Messages
50
Location
Puyallup, Washington, United States
Sorry if I can be an ass. ;)

No worries man, I actually took your comment to be a little bit meaner than you meant it, that was my fault, shouldn't have fired back like that. We're all here fighting the same good fight.

Lol, you're right though, I did step right into that one. There's still no way I'd get an ACLU card :lol:, but at least I know now not to play that card anymore. You rarely hear about such cases, if ever.
 
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mobiushky

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Messages
830
Location
Alaska (ex-Colorado)
"The claim to fame for these models is that the lower receivers are two different colors — one color for the receiver itself, and a completely different color for the parts that need to be milled out to complete the gun. It’s the equivalent of a “paint by numbers” approach to firearms manufacturing, making the process nearly idiot-proof." - "According to the ATF’s “once a gun always a gun” doctrine, the instant the lower is milled out and completed it’s officially a firearm and subject to all of the applicable laws. Even if you go back and fill in the relevant sections, it’s still a gun that you just manufactured and must be treated as such."

What I get from this article is that there is a disagreement between certain manufacturers and the BATFE on the legal precedent of the exact point a firearm is completed to the point that it needs to be officially registered as a firearm.
If, for instance, the Fire Control Group cavity of an AR-15 is created out of one color of metal, and then the rest of the firearm is then cast around that existing piece of metal in a different color, then the casting would have never been milled into a legal firearm at anytime, but would still have 2 different colors on metal, working as a guide for the customer to mill out the last 20% themselves easier.
Or, as another example, if a manufacture mills out the Fire Control Group cavity of an 80% Lower Receiver, but NOT the holes for the Hammer, Trigger Pins, Selector Switch, or the Trigger, and then refills the cavity with a different color metal, then does to qualify to the "once a gun always a gun” doctrine? The firearm had been completed more than the "80%" point at one point, but was never completed to the 100% point, so the firearm could have never possibly be used as a completed firearm, and shouldn't have to be registered as such. Is an "81%" complete firearm considered a firearm on a register-able level?

Couple of points of clarification. First, the raid was based on the polymer lowers only. Not the metal ones, so let's be clear on that. Doesn't make it right, but at least we need to be clear on what the "point" of the raid was. Second, ATF believes (and has been proven wrong) that EP molds a lower then fills in the FCG pocket with a different color polymer. That's not the case according to EP Armory and Ares. The process is the revers. They mold the FCG pocket out of white polymer first. Then use that as a center to the mold for the rest of the lower. At no point is the lower ever a gun. But that may not matter as the BATFEIEIO can pretty much claim whatever they want and no one can really argue. If dipstick and numbnuts at the BATFEIEIO call it a gun it's a gun. Even if that "gun" is a lampshade.
 

carolina guy

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Jun 21, 2012
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Concord, NC
Ares failed...

The moment that Ares had the restraining order, they should have immediately removed and encrypted the customer records.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
The moment that Ares had the restraining order, they should have immediately removed and encrypted the customer records.

That was my thought, make the records not available. Or from now on do only cash over the counter sales of that particular 80% lower. No records are required to sell them, anybody can sell them.
 

Rusty Young Man

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Jun 19, 2013
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Árida Zona
Ah, the truth comes out. I see 80% receivers everywhere. heck, theyre on amazon. Ares was flying too close the sun and got burned. Sucks tho.

Icarus sought only freedom but was shot down by the petty usurper Zeus. Though Icarus may suffer the will of Zeus, it does not justify the whims of Zeus.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
I'm not too eager to get into the AR-15 build, but to support Area Armor, I just may buy myself a fancy "paperweight";).

Fortunatley I live in a state that will probably never ban or require registration of a AR. Unless the feds do it, and I do not see that happening until there is change in the makeup of SCOTUS.

As it is now I can get a fully machined lower for less than the 80%, if I wanted, which I don't, to build a AR I would buy one of the ones where I do not have to do any work on it. NOW if the prices were to get lower then I might change my mind. I remember when 1911 80% frames were dirt cheap.

I would buy a poly 1911 frame though whether it was complete or 80%, as long as the price was right.
 
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davidmcbeth

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Fortunatley I live in a state that will probably never ban or require registration of a AR. Unless the feds do it, and I do not see that happening until there is change in the makeup of SCOTUS.

As it is now I can get a fully machined lower for less than the 80%, if I wanted, which I don't, to build a AR I would buy one of the ones where I do not have to do any work on it. NOW if the prices were to get lower then I might change my mind. I remember when 1911 80% frames were dirt cheap.

I would buy a poly 1911 frame though whether it was complete or 80%, as long as the price was right.

One can get cast 80% lowers for $35 ... so one can save $$$ if they want (if they have tools to finish it)

Its a skill everyone should have too .. pew pew pew
 

mobiushky

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+1 Thank you. I'll change it in my example to "material". So it can be explained for either/or.

That and the real point of Ares' argument is that the ATF contends that the lower is molded first then the pocket is filled in. That would mean a completely functional lower is manufactured and then rendered into an 80% lower by reverting it back. ATF believes once a gun always a gun. But in fact EP claims the process is the opposite. The FCG pocket is made first. Then wrapped by polymer to make the lower. The crux here is that the ATF is wrong and they knew it. So by enforcing this inaccurate representation of the manufacturing process, ATF is changing it's position on what constitutes an 80% in contradiction to it's own previously stated position. They messed up and now they are trying to cover their mistake by moving the goal posts. That's what Ares is upset about.
 

marshaul

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[…] I do not see that happening until there is change in the makeup of SCOTUS.

Possibly the one thing that can be said for the SCOTUS is that they are disinclined to throw out stare decisis. The SCOTUS seems to generally prefer to maintain bad precedent than to overturn it, especially when that precedent is recent.

I highly doubt the SCOTUS will be redefining the 2A any time soon.
 

davidmcbeth

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Fortunatley I live in a state that will probably never ban or require registration of a AR. Unless the feds do it, and I do not see that happening until there is change in the makeup of SCOTUS.
.

Well, I live in CT ... has no effect on me getting a new AR design-based gun...and registration? I don't know what that is...something irrelevant I should think to my guns.
 
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