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Because you must be responsible for yourself

LoveMyCountry

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The only person I know who agrees with me on every issue is married to my wife, and I'm not too sure about him. He looks weird.

LoveMyCountry
 

usmc_recon

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Absolutely, we should abolish welfare. How soon can we start?

I believe that abortion is ethically wrong in most cases (perhaps all cases?); however, I wouldn't support laws to abolish it as that is forcing my viewpoint on someone else. I say let it remain legal. I don't want the gov't deciding what I can and can't do with my body.
 

mzbk2l

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LeagueOf1291 wrote:
mzbk2l wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
The question of when life begins is a moral and philosophical issue, not a scientific one.

Abortion and other population control methods should be funded by individuals and private organizations that favor those methods -- not by the public.
I disagree that question of life beginning is moral or philosophical; if science can not provide an answer to a biological question, what good is it?

<snip>
Well, science, like any other discipline, is only good for what it's good for. Astronomy is no help in making cookies, and biology describes chemical processes in living things -- it doesn't define life, it merely observes its processes. Science is good for that much, but it's no good when it comes to defining what life is and when it begins.

Scientific methodology is useful for gaining empirical knowledge of certain aspects of the natural world -- and that's about where its usefulness ends. It relies on the principles of observation, falsifiability, and repeatability. We can observe things happening, we can come up with falsifiable theories about what we're observing, and we can repeat the observations to test the theories.

But none of this tells us the meaning of the biological processes we're observing. That is a value judgment that has nothing to do with empirical reality. Rather, when we ascribe meaning to the biological process of conception and call it life (or not), we're making a moral judgment about the inherent value of that thing we're observing.

So scientific methodology is a way of gaining empirical knowledge -- size, weight, composition, temperature, activity -- about the pack of cells, and then we move on the the question of what it is and what it's worth.

And that inquiry is entirely outside the scope of scientific methodology.
I don't want to keep going too far off topic here, but as a quick reply: are you saying that the science of biology cannot tell us if something is alive or not alive (without regard to the something's value)?

Naturally everyone's values are different; for example, I place more value on a candidate who will not try to force his religious values on me than I do on a candidate who only supports 2A rights.

Still, the family planning/funding issue would keep me from voting from someone. Here's an example: when I was living in Virginia in the early 90's, I had a female friend who seemed to get pregnant very easily. I kept trying to convince her to get that contraceptive that was implanted under the skin. She could not find any easy availablity of it, so she didn't get it. Now the good citizens of Virginia are paying for her and all six of her boys. FAMILY PLANNING does not have to mean abortion, and limiting funds for such organizations just because they also perform abortions only serves to increase the welfare state.
 

Tomahawk

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mzbk2l wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
mzbk2l wrote:
LeagueOf1291 wrote:
The question of when life begins is a moral and philosophical issue, not a scientific one.

Abortion and other population control methods should be funded by individuals and private organizations that favor those methods -- not by the public.
.
....And that inquiry is entirely outside the scope of scientific methodology.
I don't want to keep going too far off topic here, but as a quick reply: are you saying that the science of biology cannot tell us if something is alive or not alive (without regard to the something's value)?

I think what he's saying is that science cannot tells us the definition of "alive". We decide what that criteria is and then science can tell us if a particular biological system meets that criteria based on hard observation.

For instance, if I define "life" to be any natural machinethat moves under it's own power, than a sperm cell is a living organism before conception ever takes place. Most people would not say that is true; they have defined a tighter criterion for "life".

So then, is an embryo a living organism? Science cannot tell you this; you must define what you think it means to be "alive" and then, using scientific methods and instruments such as an ultrasound machine, you can determine if the embryo in question is alive or not.

The definition of life is the heart of the argument between pro-lifers and pro-choicers, and it's based heavily on emotion and religious or philosophical beliefs, which makes it very hard to write a law which will satisfy everyone.
 

Tess

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Tomahawk wrote:
"...which makes it very hard to write a law which will satisfy everyone."
Exactly why there should not be any law concerning it. Taken as a moral decision, each person must make up her or his own mind, and live with the consequences ofthat decision.
 

casullshooter

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At 1130 (EDT)PM tonight former Senator Fred Thompson will be giving a speech in CA . He seems to be the most sensible of the possible candidates out there . I believe he is worth a look .

Learn more about Fred @ GrassrootsVoter.com
 

usmc_recon

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I think to say that because people will have babies irresponsibly, and because we are a welfare state, that we should be involved in family planning to lower the costs.

I don't think that logic makes sense. And it leads to further and further taxation of responsible citizens.

People are having babies irresponsibly BECAUSE we are a welfare state. Remove that carrot from in front of the horses mouth and people will eventually realize that they must live with their choices and be responsible for them.

Some argue (like my bleeding heart liberal parents) that some children will suffer in the meanwhile. Perhaps. However, if it bothers you that much, you can always set up your own PRIVATE charitable organization to take care of those children.
 

mzbk2l

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usmc_recon wrote:
I think to say that because people will have babies irresponsibly, and because we are a welfare state, that we should be involved in family planning to lower the costs.
I think we're on a slightly different tangent here, USMC. I'm talking about people, generally without any insurance, who are perhaps trying for contraceptives, morning after pills, etc.

Because the facilities that are willing to provide those things to uninsured people may also perform (or have involvement with) abortions, they are denied federal funding.

Therefore, even if a woman was not seeking an abortion, she also misses out on the chance for contraception, morning after pills, or any other services offered there.

Those are the type of things I was referring to, and since those same people had no insurance to start with, who gets to pay for it? You and me.

Any candidate who attempts to force his particular, narrow religious-influenced morals on an entire country is not one I can vote for, regardless of whether he agrees with me on 2A.
 

Citizen

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Tess wrote:
I'm still wishing for a candidate I could support enthusiastically. Haven't seen one in many many many years - wait, I don't think I've ever seen one. The only reason I don't (usually) waste my vote on someone with not a snowball's chance is that I've for years voted AGAINST someone (can you say John Kerry, or Billary Clinton?) instead of for a candidate I truly wish to see in office.

The problem is in being a fiscal conservative, a social liberal, a defense republican and a local libertarian, I guess.

How can we have so much trouble finding good people with 535 federal legislators, 50 state governors, and numerous state and federal judges? I'm thinking it ought to be just the reverse if they're really qualified to be leaders. Shouldn't we ought to have about 500 good people from which to select, with the bad ones really standing out as obvious?
 

usmc_recon

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I'm pretty sure I'm on the right tangent. We, as a society, should be paying for NEITHER. Neither the contraceptives nor the various federal handouts that come after the contraceptives weren't used and the baby is born.

Was anybody else alive during the 80's? Wasn't it Communism and Socialism we were fighting AGAINST?

What part of "I am not responsible for protecting you while you screw someone" or "I am not responsible for your child that you can't support" don't the welfare recipients and liberals in this country understand?

People are irresponsible because the handouts are there. Remove them and the problem will go down significantly. Of course, some people would make bad decisions regardless. And for those people, they have family, friends and private charitable organizations that can possibly help them out.

We seem to be inclined as Americans (humans)to treat the symptoms and not the cause. We don't want to eat right, we want to eat wrong and use laxatives and antacids later. We don't want to face the fact that welfare isn't a solution, we'd rather add more welfare programs in the hope that they might reduce spending on other welfare programs. Huh ?! That's not soung logic.
 

LeagueOf1291

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Yeah, why should any public money go to any family planning? I do my own family planning. Why should I pay for somebody else's? What are we, a bunch of nannies that we gotta pick up the tab when people copulate and don't like the consequences?

Dag slab. Talk about imposing on others..........
 

mzbk2l

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usmc_recon and LeagueOf1291, you're right. Your money (and mine) shouldn't have to pay for someone else's family planning.

HOWEVER, it's a choice of pay me now, or pay me later. Pay a little now for family planning, or pay a lot later for LACK of familiy planning. We already know that if welfare bums have kids, we're gonna be paying for more welfare bums. There's no option there (besides moving out of the country or not paying taxes).

To me, it makes a lot more sense to offer contraceptives, advise, chastity belts, or whatever else we can offer to prevent that from happening.

Unfortunately, some of these religious fanatics in office or running for office feel that if any place that offers those services ALSO offers abortions, then they don't get any money for either.

Therefore, you and I are stuck paying for generations of additional welfare bums instead of a $40 contraceptive. That just seems like a waste of my tax dollars.

Personally, I don't want a politician using his religious beliefs to decide what to do with my tax dollars. I don't care if this guy wants to pass a law requiring everyone to own a gun; he won't get my vote as long as he's pushing his religious views on my life.
 

Tomahawk

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mzbk2l wrote:
usmc_recon and LeagueOf1291, you're right. Your money (and mine) shouldn't have to pay for someone else's family planning.

HOWEVER, it's a choice of pay me now, or pay me later. Pay a little now for family planning, or pay a lot later for LACK of familiy planning. We already know that if welfare bums have kids, we're gonna be paying for more welfare bums. There's no option there (besides moving out of the country or not paying taxes).

To me, it makes a lot more sense to offer contraceptives, advise, chastity belts, or whatever else we can offer to prevent that from happening.

Unfortunately, some of these religious fanatics in office or running for office feel that if any place that offers those services ALSO offers abortions, then they don't get any money for either.

Therefore, you and I are stuck paying for generations of additional welfare bums instead of a $40 contraceptive. That just seems like a waste of my tax dollars.

Personally, I don't want a politician using his religious beliefs to decide what to do with my tax dollars. I don't care if this guy wants to pass a law requiring everyone to own a gun; he won't get my vote as long as he's pushing his religious views on my life.

Then why don't we just stop paying welfare?

Why pay for family planning when paying for welfare is the problem in the first place?

Why spend money on welfare to create a problem, only to spend more money for the bandaid that is family planning?

Unless you think paying for welfare is a good idea, in which case Ron Paul is the exact opposite of who you want to vote for. In that case I recommend the Green Party or some other leftist candidate...
 

mzbk2l

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Tomahawk wrote:
Then why don't we just stop paying welfare?

Why pay for family planning when paying for welfare is the problem in the first place?

Why spend money on welfare to create a problem, only to spend more money for the bandaid that is family planning?
That would be the best solution, and I'm all for any kind of "welfare reform" that gets rid of welfare. :)

Do you really think that's ever going to happen, though? Since it hasn't happened yet, our current choices are: #1) Pay a lot for welfare, or #2) Pay a little to buy some contraceptives for some idiots who don't know how to plan for themselves.

Ron Paul refuses to support #2, so by default he is forcing #1 on us.
 

Collier4385

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I like Ron Paul. He has moral substance, and thats rare in an Republican or Democrat. People may hate him for taking moral stands, but I applaud his strength to stand on his convictions. And as a for an abortion, its easy for someone to live with the consequences when they are already alive...

If the biggest concern about him is that he wants to extend protection to unborn babies, y'all can have Giuliani or Hillary Clinton. Just be prepared to pay more taxes, have less freedoms, and surrender your guns.:cuss:

But then again, there may be some that enjoyed the moral debauchery of Clinton. Silly me.:uhoh:



Give me Ron Paul, or give me Fred Thompson!
 

casullshooter

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As a way to slowly reduce welfare ,VOTING RIGHTS should be suspended while receiving a welfare check . This would stop the receipents from re-electing(or helping to do so) politicians that give them handouts for their votes . A Congressman(D) in NC had his campaign workers going through public housing areas door to door telling people that his opponent(R) was going to evict them if got elected . If you are not contributing to the kitty why should you have a say in how it is spent ? If I had a family member(adult) living with me while unemployedI doubt I would seek their opinion on how the family finances would be spent .

Welfare is not compassion it is ENSLAVEMENT!!
 

Tomahawk

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mzbk2l wrote:
That would be the best solution, and I'm all for any kind of "welfare reform" that gets rid of welfare. :)

Do you really think that's ever going to happen, though?
Lots of people never thought we would get rid of the AWB or see lots of shall-issue states. If you give up before the fight begins, you can't ever win.

I do not support the idea that you have to introduce a new bad policy because you won't get rid of an old one.
 

Tess

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The thought that people want to get rid of all welfare scares me too. Mind you, I despise the current system.

As a child, I saw this first hand. Dad left Mom with four young kids and no child suport. Mom watched other people's kids, sometimes having as many as four to five others in our home, for money, but needed welfare. When I was old enough to watch the younger ones when they got home, since older kids got out of school before the younger), Mom went back to work. It galled her to take welfare, but between that, the payment from others, and baking her own bread, making her own everything, and us learningwe didn't NEED soda, ice cream, records (there is radio), long-distance calls (use mail), etc., we survived.

Even then it galled me - some of Mom's "friends" would go out drinking, some to pick up men, buy new televisions, have their hair professionally done, etc., while crying to Mom that they couldn't afford to feed their kids.

Unfortunately, "fairness" crept in to government. We can't alow case workers to make individual decisions, because it might not be "fair". So we write rules, and more rules, and more rules and more rules, that allow everything to everyone. Rules that say if I give you something, I have to give it to your neighbor, despite circumstances. In other words, remove personal responsibility and reward laziness. I know people who popped ou babies every year or two so the welfare check wouldn't stop and they wouldn't have to find a job. That behavior disgusts me.

Until we have a system that permits help and restricts giveaways, we don't have a viable system. But some people need help.
 

LeagueOf1291

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mzbk2l wrote:
<snip>
Personally, I don't want a politician using his religious beliefs to decide what to do with my tax dollars. I don't care if this guy wants to pass a law requiring everyone to own a gun; he won't get my vote as long as he's pushing his religious views on my life.

If it's not his religious views, it's his political views, or his "worldview," or his secular views, or his views about social justice, or his idea of fairness, or whatever.....

Whenever someone takes a stand on some issue, his position is determined by the things he believes. Some people use Christianity to inform their views. Some people prefer a secular humanist view. Or something else.

Whatever the case, he's using his views, his philosophy to decide what to do with your tax dollars. I don't see why "religious beliefs" are the worst reason to decide what to do with your money.
 

Lew

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Some of you are really killing me when you talk about Ron Paul. I'll spare the rant and just remind you of his capability:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peBGJwE9NXo

You're still saying he has no chance?? Even after he's getting singled out on national television and he blew the others out of the water on an MSNBC poll after the debate? Quit crying and join the fight.
 
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