HankT
State Researcher
imported post
tarzan1888 wrote:
Whaddya think now?
(I wonder what happened to the crowbars?)
Dec. 8, 2007, 12:38AM
Pasadena police say Horn shot 2 men in the back
Both men were hit by shotgun blasts after entering Joe Horn's front yard
By CINDY HORSWELL and ROBERT STANTON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
The twoburglary suspects killed by Pasadena homeowner Joe Horn were shot in the back after they ventured into his front yard, police disclosed Friday.
In another twist, investigators revealed that a plainclothes Pasadena detective witnessed the Nov. 14 shootings after he pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-gauge shotgun.
The men, who had just burglarized Horn's neighbor's house, faced him from seven to 10 feet away when they ignored his order to "not move"or they would be dead, police said.
The controversial shootings have outraged minority activists but also brought an outpouring of support for Horn.
"We now have a summary documenting what we think happened," said Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."
The district attorney will then present the case to a grand jury to determine if any charges should be filed against Horn, 61, a computer consultant, who has claimed self-defense.
The two men — Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48 — collapsed and died not far from Horn's home on Timberline in a Pasadena neighborhood.
Both were illegal immigrants from Colombia, authorities said. Torres had been deported to Colombia in 1999 after serving time for possession with intent to distribute cocaine. Both were also using fake identification cards and aliases, and their backgrounds are now being scrutinized by federal authorities to determine if they were part of a Colombian fake ID and burglary ring, authorities said.
On Friday, Corbett described the shooting scenario that had been pieced together so far.
According to a transcript of Horn's 911 call, at 2 p.m., he became concerned that his next- door neighbor's home was being burglarized after hearing some glass break.
The dispatcher repeatedly urges Horn to stay in his house but Horn states that he doesn't feel it's right to let the burglars get away.
"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn tells the dispatcher. "You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."
The dispatcher replies: "Don't go outside."
Then the tape records Horn warning someone: "Move and you're dead!" Two quick shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then a third shot.
Corbett said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.
Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present.
"It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."
When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.
Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.
"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."
Autopsy reportThe wounded man crossed the street, collapsed and died, authorities said. At the same time, the other man had turned and ran away from Horn.
Horn swung his shotgun around after shooting the first man and fired at the second one after he entered the neighbor's yard, investigators said.
He was hit in the back but continued running until collapsing a few hundred yards down the street, Corbett said.
According to a final ruling, Ortiz died of shotgun wounds to his neck and torso, said Ellie Wallace, an investigator at the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office.
The report said that Torres died of shotgun wounds to his torso and upper left extremity.
Wallace could not confirm whether the men were shot in the back, saying the autopsy report only indicated they were shot in the torso.
Neither suspect was armed, but one had a "center punch," a 6-inch pointed metal tool, in his pocket that might be used as a weapon, authorities said.
Also, they were carrying a sack filled with more than $2,000 in cash and assorted jewelry believed taken in the burglary, police said.
Self-defense claimInvestigators believe a third person may have driven the men from Houston to the Pasadena neighborhood. Police could find no vehicle belonging to the pair parked in the area.
On the 911 tape, Horn mentioned a new state law that allows residents to protect their own home from intruders.
"This case is a little different," Corbett said. "We'll have to let the grand jury sort this one out."
Horn's attorney, Charles T. Lambright, said his client fired in self-defense because he feared for his life.
"One of them (suspects) moved and Joe thought he was coming towards him," Lambright said. "They were in such close proximity (to Horn) that they could be on top of him in half a second."
The fact that a police officer witnessed the shooting but did not arrest Horn is further evidence that he acted in self-defense, he said.
"You've got a trained police officer sitting there watching this, and he doesn't arrest Horn," Lambright said. "If the (plainclothes) officer thought it was not a righteous shooting, maybe the Pasadena Police Department would have arrested Mr. Horn for murder."
Civil rights activist Quanell X said he would step up the call for a murder indictment against Horn, and questioned whether the Pasadena police should investigate the case.
Quanell X said the shooting should be handled instead by the Texas Rangers and the FBI.
"I don't trust the Pasadena Police Department," he said. "Why are they just now releasing the fact that an undercover officer witnessed the whole thing? This case stinks."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5362232.html#
tarzan1888 wrote:
imperialism2024 wrote:deepdiver wrote:Regardless of the veracity of that statement, it doesn't really matter, as Mr. Horn did not know that these men were part of an organized crime ring when he shot them. It's also not a valid defense for shooting a person because some people in their group (let that be defined as it may) are violent. I could go into hypotheticals, but those would ultimately be counterproductive. Essentially, while these facts may prove the idea that "society is better off without" these two guys, it does not supplement or detract from Mr. Horn's decision to use deadly force because, at the time, he had no way of knowing these things.So Mr Horn took out 2 BGs suspected to be part of a large, ongoing crime ring including people who are very violent. I think that increases the liklihood that the BGs really did threaten Mr Horn and that the shooting was justified.
imperialism2024No the earth is not about to open up and swallow us, but I do agree with you...as far as you go....
To me this answers one more question.
My current thoughts are as follows.
1. Joe Horn and others in his area were not happy that these types of things had been going on.
2. Joe Horn did the right thing when he called 911 and reported the burglary.
3. Joe Horn did the right thing to arm himself.
4. Joe Horn should have stayed in his home and reported the events that were happening from a safe vantage.
I think most of us would agree so far.
There are a lot of people who have a lot of big talk, when talk is cheep. I think most of Joe's talk BEFORE he went outside was just that big talk. I think he is a little man who wanted to feel BIG.
When Joe horn went outside, he didn't meet regular buglers. He met Columbian Nationals, possibly part of a violent ring that was involved in extensive illegal activities.
These guys ended up being shot in his yard facing him. This had always been troubling to me. This said that they had seen this old man with a shotgun and had still come toward him, as he said they did. What was their reason, it was not logical for them to do this. Bad guys see a man with a gun, and they run, that is how it is supposed to go, especially if they don't have guns.
To continue with how I see it now.
5. Joe Horn thought he would be a big man with his gun and they would run or give up and for all his talk, I don't think he really expected them to charge him, crowbars or not.
6. Joe Horn found himself facing not regular buglers, but desperate violent men who did the un-thinkable and charged the man with the gun.
7. At that point in time, I think he did what he had to do and shot, after placing himself in a position that he should not have.
8. We (the gun carrying private citizens) are not police, it is not our job to apprehend bad guys. We should be ready to defend ourselves or others who need defending, but we should tryand not needlessly place ourselves in a position that is truly dangerous.
9. Talking big on the phone was a stupid thing for Joe to do, and I still think it was a much shaken humbled Joe, who talked to 911 the second time. If they had gotrten to him, I think they would have killed him.
10. Protecting your home and life and the lives of others is good, but be careful what else you do if you are not a cop. I think that Joe Horn shot in self defense, but onlyafter he had put himself in a bad situation.
Whaddya think now?
(I wonder what happened to the crowbars?)
Dec. 8, 2007, 12:38AM
Pasadena police say Horn shot 2 men in the back
Both men were hit by shotgun blasts after entering Joe Horn's front yard
By CINDY HORSWELL and ROBERT STANTON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
The twoburglary suspects killed by Pasadena homeowner Joe Horn were shot in the back after they ventured into his front yard, police disclosed Friday.
In another twist, investigators revealed that a plainclothes Pasadena detective witnessed the Nov. 14 shootings after he pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-gauge shotgun.
The men, who had just burglarized Horn's neighbor's house, faced him from seven to 10 feet away when they ignored his order to "not move"or they would be dead, police said.
The controversial shootings have outraged minority activists but also brought an outpouring of support for Horn.
"We now have a summary documenting what we think happened," said Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."
The district attorney will then present the case to a grand jury to determine if any charges should be filed against Horn, 61, a computer consultant, who has claimed self-defense.
The two men — Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48 — collapsed and died not far from Horn's home on Timberline in a Pasadena neighborhood.
Both were illegal immigrants from Colombia, authorities said. Torres had been deported to Colombia in 1999 after serving time for possession with intent to distribute cocaine. Both were also using fake identification cards and aliases, and their backgrounds are now being scrutinized by federal authorities to determine if they were part of a Colombian fake ID and burglary ring, authorities said.
On Friday, Corbett described the shooting scenario that had been pieced together so far.
According to a transcript of Horn's 911 call, at 2 p.m., he became concerned that his next- door neighbor's home was being burglarized after hearing some glass break.
The dispatcher repeatedly urges Horn to stay in his house but Horn states that he doesn't feel it's right to let the burglars get away.
"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn tells the dispatcher. "You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."
The dispatcher replies: "Don't go outside."
Then the tape records Horn warning someone: "Move and you're dead!" Two quick shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then a third shot.
Corbett said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.
Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present.
"It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."
When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.
Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.
"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."
Autopsy reportThe wounded man crossed the street, collapsed and died, authorities said. At the same time, the other man had turned and ran away from Horn.
Horn swung his shotgun around after shooting the first man and fired at the second one after he entered the neighbor's yard, investigators said.
He was hit in the back but continued running until collapsing a few hundred yards down the street, Corbett said.
According to a final ruling, Ortiz died of shotgun wounds to his neck and torso, said Ellie Wallace, an investigator at the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office.
The report said that Torres died of shotgun wounds to his torso and upper left extremity.
Wallace could not confirm whether the men were shot in the back, saying the autopsy report only indicated they were shot in the torso.
Neither suspect was armed, but one had a "center punch," a 6-inch pointed metal tool, in his pocket that might be used as a weapon, authorities said.
Also, they were carrying a sack filled with more than $2,000 in cash and assorted jewelry believed taken in the burglary, police said.
Self-defense claimInvestigators believe a third person may have driven the men from Houston to the Pasadena neighborhood. Police could find no vehicle belonging to the pair parked in the area.
On the 911 tape, Horn mentioned a new state law that allows residents to protect their own home from intruders.
"This case is a little different," Corbett said. "We'll have to let the grand jury sort this one out."
Horn's attorney, Charles T. Lambright, said his client fired in self-defense because he feared for his life.
"One of them (suspects) moved and Joe thought he was coming towards him," Lambright said. "They were in such close proximity (to Horn) that they could be on top of him in half a second."
The fact that a police officer witnessed the shooting but did not arrest Horn is further evidence that he acted in self-defense, he said.
"You've got a trained police officer sitting there watching this, and he doesn't arrest Horn," Lambright said. "If the (plainclothes) officer thought it was not a righteous shooting, maybe the Pasadena Police Department would have arrested Mr. Horn for murder."
Civil rights activist Quanell X said he would step up the call for a murder indictment against Horn, and questioned whether the Pasadena police should investigate the case.
Quanell X said the shooting should be handled instead by the Texas Rangers and the FBI.
"I don't trust the Pasadena Police Department," he said. "Why are they just now releasing the fact that an undercover officer witnessed the whole thing? This case stinks."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5362232.html#