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Can't Require a License to Exercise a Right

rapgood

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and depending upon the intellectual honesty of any federal judge, you'll most likely hear the following upon your lawsuit dismissal or your conviction.

The right there specified is that of "bearing arms for a lawful purpose." This is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress.

U.S. v. Cruikshank (1876)

Your quote from Cruikshank predates the decision in McDonald, which unambiguously states “Two years ago, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 171 L. Ed. 2d 637 (2008), we held that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense, and we struck down a District of Columbia law that banned the possession of handguns in the home. The city of Chicago (City) and the village of Oak Park, a Chicago suburb, have laws that are similar to the District of Columbia's, but Chicago and Oak Park argue that their laws are constitutional because the Second Amendment has no application to the States. We have previously held that most of the provisions of the Bill of Rights apply with full force to both the Federal Government and the States. Applying the standard that is well established in our case law, we hold that the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States.” McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3026 (U.S. 2010)(emphasis added).

“There is nothing about Cruikshank's contrary holding that warrants its retention. I agree with the Court that the Second Amendment is fully applicable to the States. I do so because the right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment as a privilege of American citizenship.” J. Scalia’s concurrence, McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3088 (U.S. 2010).

Cruikshank's analysis was based upon an interpretation of the Privileges and Immunities clause. Since Cruikshank was decided, the S.Ct. has discontinued analysis of the most of the Bill of Rights under the P&I clause and has, instead, analyzed the applicability of the Bill of Rights to the states under the Due Process clause. Since McDonald, Cruikshank has been abrogated once and overruled twice.

Even so, the S. Ct. held, “It is important to keep in mind that Heller, while striking down a law that prohibited the possession of handguns in the home, recognized that the right to keep and bear arms is not ‘a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.’ 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 171 L. Ed. 2d at 678. We made it clear in Heller that our holding did not cast doubt on such longstanding regulatory measures as ‘prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill,’ ‘laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.’ Id., at ___-___, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 171 L. Ed. 2d at 678. We repeat those assurances here. Despite municipal respondents' doomsday proclamations, incorporation does not imperil every law regulating firearms.” McDonald v. City of Chicago, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3047 (U.S. 2010)
 

LkWd_Don

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Orignial Post = Can't Require a License to Excercise a Right I've heard this stated multiple times on the board and I agree with it for multiple reasons, but I was wondering if there is case law to back up this statement. If there is case law can someone please post it so that I can learn from it and use it when this comment comes up in conversation.


Reading through the thread I get the impression that Beretta92FSLady is talking the inalienable rights discussed in our Declaration of Independence. Which as listed in that DoI were Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. These were the Rights that are Granted by God and can not be denied. Enough of that.. I offer it for reference only.

wrightme has given a good cite that though it does not deal with firearms.. does answer the question nicely.

Now to the topic of Our Government is not supposed to charge a fee or provide a license for us to enjoy a right. I wholeheartedly agree with that premise. I would ask that everyone consider the 9th Amendment
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
and the 10th Amendment.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Yes the SCOTUS has said in a ruling "A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution."
Being that our Federal Constitution could not have been fully ratified without a promise to the peoples of the United States at that time, that a Bill of Rights would be included to outline the Protections of the People and the Several Sovereign States to insure that they Government would not simply abuse the People upon the ratification of the Constitution. 12 Amendments were presented, ten were initially ratified, Becoming our BoR and one of the two that did not initially get ratified is now our 27th Amendment. For those who may need to review to follow along.. Please use http://usconstitution.net/const.html

Looking back at the 9A and 10A, if something is not covered in the main text of the Constitution as being a power reserved to the Government and is not prohibited to the States, It respectively belongs to the People themselves and the People then grant the States the Power or Authority to Govern them. Many things are not enumerated in our Constitution as being under the Powers of the Federal Governments and if they were not provided by the People to the States in their Constitutions, then we can conclude that they belong solely to the people.

This is where everyone should know what their Sovereign State Constitution spells out.

By our Federal Constitution every citizen has a right to travel anywhere within the Union of States that they wish.. The Constitution does not specify a limit on how that travel may be accomplished. So we have a right to travel.. We have a right to own property.. and the SCOTUS has declared that "A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution."
Yet we are charged to License a Personal Property to aid in that travel.. likewise we ourselves have to obtain a license to operate that personal property to travel.

Just as in Many States in order for a person to Keep and Bear Arms.. they must obtain a license for which they were required to pay.

Do I see this as wrong.. Yes.. do I see it as anti-constitutional (my term for something I feel is unconstitutional that has not been ruled such by the SCOTUS)? Yes..
Do I have the funds to violate the laws and contest them all the way to the SCOTUS? Unfortunately.. No..
 
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Freedom1Man

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Now NO STATE may convert a RIGHT into a PRIVILEGE and require a LICENSE or FEE for the exercise of that RIGHT!!! Please see MURDOCK vs. PENNSYLVANIA, 319 U.S. 105, and if a STATE does erroneously do require A LICENSE OR FEE for exercise of the RIGHT, the Citizen may IGNORE THE LICENSE AND OR FEE and exercise the RIGHT WITH TOTAL IMPUNITY!!! Please see SCHUTTLESWORTH vs. BIRMINGHAM 373 U.S. 262. YOU CAN NOT BE PUNISHED FOR THE EXERCISE OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT!!! Please see MILLER vs. UNITED STATES 230 F2nd 486. You have a PERFECT DEFENSE TO THE ELEMENT OF WILLFULLNESS if you rely on the advice of Counsel or upon a DECISION OF THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT AS A DEFENSE. Please see U.S. vs. BISHOP, 412 U.S. 346. If the Prosecution who bears entirely the proofs beyond a TOTAL REASONABLE DOUBT can NOT prove WILLFUL INTENT TO AVOID AND KNOWN DUTY OR TASK UNDER THE LAW WITH A MORAL CERTAINTY, said Prosecutor does NOT HAVE A CAUSE OF ACTION FOR WHICH A COURT OF LAW MAY GRANT RELIEF TO HIM/HER, and thereby has NO CASE AT LAW!!!! FACT!!!!! See Michigan Court Rule 2.116 (c) (8) FAILURE TO STATE A CAUSE OF ACTION FOR WHICH RELIEF MAY BE GRANTED BY THE COURT.


In short a license is permission to do something that you would otherwise not be able to do.

To answer this question you must know what it is you're really asking. Once you do that I think that the answer will become very clear.

If I were to visit your house and you invited me into your house you have now given me license (permission) to enter. You have a right to be there and I would have license to be there the length of time and the scope of that license to last is up to you. I may have license to enter your living room but not your bed room, I might have license to change a light bulb but not repair the dryer etc.

You have a RIGHT to be in your own house. I do not. So if you needed a state license to enter you own house that would be a violation of your rights. The exercising of a right is fine until you harm the rights of others. For example if you raised RATS in your basement, garage, anywhere in your house or property so long as they don't get loose or cause damage to the property of others you can do that.

I know that you're implying the open carry. That would cross the paths of many rights such as the right to travel, the right to defend yourself, the right to bear arms, the right to be secure in your personal property and effect, just to name a few. If a legislator were to pass a law requiring permission to OC a weapon that would be violation of your rights. The states make claims that violates rights all the time but I don't have time to go into that here.

So lets say that you did not own an automobile, the state says that you're required to have a license to have a firearms on your person while out in public. Now for this setup it's been ruled that you can transport your guns in a car without a license. Well now you have a clear violation of the right to travel. You're traveling using the only means of transportation that everyone can agree does not require a license to do. But because of the law your right to travel is destroyed.

Or to put it another way a RIGHT is something that you can't be required to have permission to exercise. You can't be required to have a license to walk into your own home, wear your own clothes, buy a car, etc.
 

rushcreek2

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I would respond that "we the people" have ALLOWED our 2A protected right to be infringed at almost every conceivable opportunity for government trespass. "We the people" are collectively complicit in permitting our governments to trespass upon the right to keep & bear arms by placidly permitting the trespassers to serve in any elected public office. We must become more proactive in countering the distortions, myths, and outright lies that convince the electorate to favor "common sense" restrictions of the RTKBA.

The essential ingredient put forward in order to sell the electorate on "common sense" regulation (prohibition) of the RTKBA is the fact that the arms in question incorporate projectiles that are known to have a destructive propensity when coming into contact with most objects. The case must be made, and demonstrated in actual experience that this destructive quality can be a factor for good.

Regulation of the First Amendment has generally been restricted under laws only within the context of destructive abuses such as liable & slander.

Using the 1A model - respect for the right of freedom of expression is derived from the presumed "good" value resulting from the free discharge of projectiles (words) into the public arena of ideas. When we the people are able to increasingly witness an obvious "good" resulting from the either the deterrent value, or the actual discharge of projectiles from the barrels of guns in the prevention of violent crime perhaps the consensus towards restricting exercise of the 2A right will reverse course in the direction of advocacy.

To date the electorate has been programmed by the various levels of government institutions, and the "progressive" (counter-constitutional republic) media to willingly accept routine slaughter of innocents by violent criminals as a "reasonable" exchange for the "peace of mind " enjoyed in the "common knowledge" that GFZ's produce greater public safety.

In short the efficacy of an armed society must be demonstrated on a more frequent basis - at least regularly enough to off-set the slaughter of innocents.
 
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rushcreek2

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Rush - are you suggesting that those of us that carry USE our guns to defend others so the "sheeple" become more used to the idea of firearms defensive capabilities?

I don't believe I "suggested" anything. My last sentence above reflected my sincere belief that a demonstrable societal "good" must become more apparent, and be recognized, and appreciated by a sizable portion of the "flock". Without any question the consensus of the "flock" must be that it is in everyone's best interest to accept the presence of the "sheep dogs" in the pasture.

An excellent case in point is the CCW at the super market in Salt Lake City the other day who was able to provide such a demonstration. I believe his publicized actions in using his gun to protect the unarmed "sheep" from further slaughter accomplished more than the combined efforts of all of the pro-2A groups in quite a long while.

The thrust of my post was to draw a comparison between the public acceptance of the 1A right vs the 2A right.

As is often the case - my intended message was apparently "concealed" by verbiage.
 

countryclubjoe

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A year old thread but worth bringing the topic back to life.

Davis v Wechsler, 263 US 22 at 24

"The assertion of Federal Rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.

Hertado V California, 110 US 516 The U.S. Supreme Court states very plainly.

" The States Cannot diminish Rights of the People"

And in Bennett V Boggs, 1 Baldwin 60,

Statues that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void.

More to come in regard to Right to Travel vs Driver License requirement's.

Kent v Dulles,357 U.S.116,125
The Right to travel is a part of the liberty of which a citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the 5th A.

When a peace officer ask to see your CCP or your DL that peace officer is asking you to give up your 5thA right. Do not surrender your right.

Best regards

CCJ
 

eye95

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This again?

The license is not for the travel, but for the operations of thousands of pounds of machinery at high speeds in the proximity of other machines of similar size operating at similar speeds on public thoroughfares.

You can travel all you want without a license. You just need the license to be the operator of the machine while traveling.
 

MyWifeSaidYes

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So what about the "No pedestrians" signs on the freeway entrance ramps in Columbus? Is that violating my right to travel?
 

eye95

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So what about the "No pedestrians" signs on the freeway entrance ramps in Columbus? Is that violating my right to travel?

Nope. There are other by-ways that go to the exact same places where pedestrians and high-speed vehicles do not present such a danger to each other.
 

KBCraig

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This again?

The license is not for the travel, but for the operations of thousands of pounds of machinery at high speeds in the proximity of other machines of similar size operating at similar speeds on public thoroughfares.
Well, that makes sense. Operating thousands of pounds of machinery at high speeds is so inherently dangerous that we can only entrust it to highly trained licensed mature adults with excellent reflexes, and only after have they have undergone hundreds of hours of training under professional supervision, including skid pad training at the limits of traction under all weather conditions.

Oh, wait... no we don't. We turn 16 year olds loose after a few dozen hours of training, if they're not so incredibly stupid that they can at least pass a written test, and make a few laps around the block without causing an accident or committing any major traffic infractions.

And, they can keep those licenses until they're doddering nonagenarians, without passing anything more than a vision test.


Nope. There are other by-ways that go to the exact same places where pedestrians and high-speed vehicles do not present such a danger to each other.
Have you ever look at what it takes to travel just across a major city, much less cross-country, without setting foot on a restricted highway?
 
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eye95

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It does make sense to most rational people. However, making sense or not (a silly distraction), the point remains that the license is not for the right, but for the operation of the machinery--something (what is the right and what is being licensed) that you conveniently ignored.
______________

It would be the travel by foot, not the choice of highway, that would present the difficulty. Everywhere major highways go that restrict pedestrian travel, so do state and US routes, county roads, city streets, sidewalks, bike trails, hiking trails, etc. that do not. There is also the option of busses, trains, planes, bicycles, being a passenger, etc.

Again, the point is conveniently ignored. It is not the travel that requires the license. It is the operation of thousands of pounds of machinery at high speeds in the proximity of other high-speed, heavy objects that is being licensed. And that DOES make sense (to give into to your silly distraction once more).
 

JmE

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Careful, I'm seeing statements that seem similar to anti-gunners' arguments for registration, training, and licensing. The argument that a driver's license is required because operating a machine is dangerous sounds pretty much like licenses (and background checks) are required because carrying firearms is dangerous. The right to travel in a motorized contraption is one that was lost in time but could be resurrected with a lot of effort.

The whole driver's license debacle is rooted in commercial driving of a vehicle as opposed to operating. (I hope I didn't mix that around!) This is not unlike requiring peace officer training for someone that carries a gun for living; a commercial license, regulation of commerce. As to controlled access highways, someone knew what they were doing. As I have pointed out to my children; since the government took over all of the trails and routes used for travel, the right to travel remains somewhat intact (at least in Ohio) because there are always alternate ways of traveling to the destination other than a controlled access highway. (Not dissimilar to Ohio licensing CC because OC is the unlicensed right.) (One will notice that there are no residences or businesses on controlled access highways in Ohio if there is no other way to access them or at least their shouldn't be; toll highways accepted due to their quasi-private nature.) If there were not then our right to travel would be effectively abolished. My Amish and Mennonite friends can travel on horseback or in buggies not because of freedom of religion but because of freedom of travel. Any one of us can travel in that manner. There's more but that would be a distraction from the thread. It's also jumbled a bit because it is a deep and broad topic being presented.

My main point is to waive a flag of caution about trying to justify the validity of requiring a driver's license based upon the inherent "dangerousness" of the tool as that is one of the arguments used to try to force licenses upon us to openly carry a firearm. Nationally, driver's license requirements were rooted in commercial operation but the argument later morphed into one of more general public safety.

(Color of Law could fix my butchering of the topic. "Paint your wagons!" lol)
 

eye95

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The RKBA is an enumerated Right related to the natural Right to self-defense. There is no enumerated RKDC (right to keep and drive a car) related to the natural right to travel. Analogies between the two are inapt.

BTW, the antis love to analogize the two.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

idea(l)s

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To quote Jme: "The whole driver's license debacle is rooted in commercial driving of a vehicle as opposed to operating."

Should read as follows: "The whole driver's license debacle is rooted in commerce".

(§ 2(6)):"The term 'commerce' means trade, traffic, commerce, transportation, or communication among the several States, or between the District of Columbia or any Territory of the United States and any State or other Territory, or between any foreign country and any State, Territory, or the District of Columbia, or within the District of Columbia or any Territory, or between points in the same State but through any other State or any Territory or the District of Columbia or any foreign country."

Congress has the authority to regulate commerce, not private life. Anyone tooling around in an automobile (not motor vehicle) is not subject to DMV rules and regulations. The DMV scheme foistered upon the people is the biggest hoax along with the infernal revenue scheme.

Here is how it is done in NM (every state has a similar regulatory scheme and we all run out to register our automobiles; once registered it needs to be insured and one must have a license to "operate" in "traffic"):


As used in the Motor Vehicle Code:
A. "evidence of registration" means any documentation issued by the department identifying a motor carrier vehicle as being registered with New Mexico or documentation issued by another state pursuant to the terms of a multistate agreement on registration of vehicles to which this state is a party identifying a motor carrier vehicle as being registered with that state; provided that evidence of payment of the weight distance tax and permits obtained under either the Special Fuels Supplier Tax Act [7-16A-1 NMSA 1978] or Trip Tax Act [7-15-1.1 NMSA 1978] are not "evidence of registration";

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18.3.4.7 DEFINITIONS: In addition to the definitions in 18.3.1.7 NMAC, as used in this rule:
A. CDL driver means a driver who is required by 49 CFR Section 383.3 or NMSA 1978
Section 66-5-59 to have a commercial driver’s license;
B. driver means a person who drives a motor vehicle as, for, or on behalf of a motor carrier or a
commuter service;
C. MVD means the motor vehicle division of the New Mexico taxation and revenue department.
[18.3.4.7 NMAC - N, 1-1-05]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

idea(l)s

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“Thus, the mere inquiry into good faith is deemed so undesirable that we must simply acquiesce in the possibility that government officials will maliciously deprive citizens of their rights. [FN45] For my part, I cannot conceive in this case how patent violations of individual rights can be tolerated in the name of the public good. "The very essence of civil liberty certainly consists in the right of every individual to claim the protections of the laws, whenever he receives an injury." Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 163, 2 L.Ed. 60 (1803).” Briscoe V LaHue 460 US 325, 368
 

JmE

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The RKBA is an enumerated Right related to the natural Right to self-defense. There is no enumerated RKDC (right to keep and drive a car) related to the natural right to travel. Analogies between the two are inapt.
And then there's that also. :D

BTW, the antis love to analogize the two.
That was the cautionary point from the "we need licenses for dangerous tools" similarities. I wasn't sure if you saw that in your DL=dangerous machinery post. It's a side note and not that important really.
 

eye95

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While the state can clearly go overboard licensing the use of tools, only one set of tools was deemed so important to Liberty as to bar the state from infringing on their ownership and carry: arms.

What the state can and cannot do with respect to you and I owning and carrying guns is a rights issue. What the state can and cannot do with respect to owning and driving cars is a policy issue. For the former, the remedies for state abuse include the courts and the ballot box. For the latter, the remedy is the ballot box.

The distinction between rights issues and policy issues is one we all need to consider a lot more than we do on OCDO>
 

idea(l)s

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Be it arms or cars, remedies can be found in the administrative agencies who "regulate" these rights, not the ballot box and certainly not the "courts". The right to travel (as opposed to moving in commerce) is unalienable, as is the right to keep and bear arms (part of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness).

Ever been to court to contest a traffic ticket? Ever inquired to the court as to whether the court is empaneled for judicial review (as opposed to administrative review)?

CHAPTER 66 Motor Vehicles
ARTICLE 8 Crimes, Penalties and Procedure
Part 2. TRAFFIC OFFENSES
66-8-120. Parties to a crime.
Every person who commits, attempts to commit, conspires to commit or aids or abets in the commission of any act declared herein to be a crime, whether individually or in connection with one or more other persons or as a principal, agent or accessory, shall be guilty of such offense, and every person who falsely, fraudulently, forcibly or willfully induces, causes, coerces, requires, permits or directs another to violate any provision of the Motor Vehicle Code [66-1-1 NMSA 1978] or any other law of this state pertaining to motor vehicles is likewise guilty of such offense.

So there you stand in "court" before the "judge" and he/she asks you: how do you wish to plead? Well duh...per the vehicle code you're guilty to begin with...! Where did that come from? Where was that guilt determined...?
 

JmE

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Eye, IMHO you are too stubborn; this coming from a very stubborn person. While you are correct, the situation the People find themselves in today is multifaceted. However, instead of simply acknowledging that, you seem to want to push your single view to the fore. Such behavior can drain energy from a movement. Well, that's my 2 cents worth at least, but what do I know?

Moving on.
 
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