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Castle Doctrine Under Fire - Score One For Freedom-Haters

OC for ME

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I believe you are conflating two similar, but different terms.

During the constitutional debates we had the Federalist and the anti-Federalists. The former argued for ratification of the Constitution, while the latter opposed ratification.

Federalism, on the other hand, is a concept of federal power limited to certain areas with States retaining much authority. It is, very much what the Federalist argued the constitution provided.

It is notable that having been less than supportive of the new Federal Constitution, Jefferson nonetheless sought and obtained the highest office under that constitution. Then while serving as president acted in arguably the most extra-constitutional manner of any president to that point with the Louisiana Purchase.

History and the persons who occupied center stage while it was being made, are not often black and white.

Charles
Many valid points. Reading the history of the constitutional debate it is clear to me that a federal government was desired by all. Federalists desired centralization and the anti-federalists desired states to hold sway over the federal government. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the anti-federalist's fears of a corrupt and overbearing federal government have been realized.

Brutus penned a letter to a paper regarding the Supreme Court, appearing on January 31, 1788
They will give the sense of every article of the constitution, that may from time to time come before them. And in their decisions they will not confine themselves to any fixed or established rules, but will determine, according to what appears to them, the reason and spirit of the constitution. The opinions of the supreme court, whatever they may be, will have the force of law; because there is no power provided in the constitution, that can correct their errors, or control their adjudications. From this court there is no appeal. And I conceive the legislature themselves, cannot set aside a judgment of this court, because they are authorised by the constitution to decide in the last resort.
There is no more clearer a example of their apprehension than the Kelo decision.
 

utbagpiper

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Many valid points.

Thank you.

Reading the history of the constitutional debate it is clear to me that a federal government was desired by all. Federalists desired centralization and the anti-federalists desired states to hold sway over the federal government.

What I find personally instructive is that we arrived at as good of a document/government as we did, only because both sides of that debate worked together in good faith to arrive at their over-arching goal which was a functioning government. The Articles of Confederation were clearly inadequate.

Our bicameral congress with the House elected by the people based on population and the Senate elected by the State legislatures with each State equal is a prime example. The pre-16th amendment limitation on federal taxes was another such compromise: Congress could levy taxes, but only a head tax. So if the more populous States wanted to push through a tax, it would affect them the most.

Obviously "compromising" (or as is often expected, giving up a little today and then a little more tomorrow) on our principles is a bad thing. But we should recognize the difference between principles and implementation. At GOUtah! we are quite happy to accept less than everything we want this year. We will come back next year and ask for some more. Our over-riding principle is support of RKBA, and not giving up anything we have, nor throwing any segment of the RKBA community under the bus.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the anti-federalist's fears of a corrupt and overbearing federal government have been realized.

Sadly, that is true in many cases. In some others, however, the federal government has worked to protect individual rights against infringement by the States. The federal Civil Rights legislation is the prime example. There are some federal laws that are protecting freedom of religion/expression from State and local infringement. Most of the limits on police powers, search, and surveillance have come from federal courts it seems. We are now seeing some positive movement from the SCOTUS and federal courts to protect the individual RKBA from State and local infringement.

The 16th and 17th amendments have certainly caused us some real problems. They have allowed a sinister conclusion between congress taxing, borrowing, and printing money and State legislatures readily ceding power in exchange for money they didn't have to tax.

The 14th has and is being applied far too broadly, to cover "rights" that the nation has not decided are even rights.


Brutus penned a letter to a paper regarding the Supreme Court, appearing on January 31, 1788There is no more clearer a example of their apprehension than the Kelo decision.

Brutus' bit about no constitutional power to correct bad court decisions caught my eye. It is common today for people to assume that nothing short of a ConAmd can correct a bad court decision. During the recent presidential election, Newt Gingrich (of all people) put out an essay on the other constitutional means available to the congress and president to check the power of the judiciary. I haven't been able to find the essay on the web for quite some time, though a search for it will readily turn up lots of negative reactions to it.

He notes, correctly in my opinion, that the three branches are co-equal. The SCOTUS is "supreme" only relative to the other courts; it is not supreme over the president or congress. Gingrich noted historic cases of presidents making clear they would not abide certain court decisions (FDR making clear he wouldn't turn over German spies captured in our nation for regular civil trial) and so the court backed off and didn't even attempt to take a case in these instances. He also noted the power of congress to impeach judges. And of congress to dissolve courts and reorganize the court districts when a court (say the 9th circuit) goes so far afield as to offend the people generally. It is also possible for congress to cut the budgets of the courts. Judicial pay cannot be cut, but nothing says we have to pay for enough clerks for them to do any real damage.

These sound like extreme, even illegal or unconstitutional measures to many today. But if used judiciously, are no different than what the courts do routinely. Courts routinely refuse to obey executive branch orders or legislative mandates based on their "co-equal power". So why shouldn't the other branches do likewise in some cases? Impeachment is an inherently political process. Why don't we have sufficient political will to simply fire judges when they show themselves as being grossly hostile to constitutional principles?

Anyway, if I can find a copy of the article to which I can link, I will try to post it. Always something one can disagree with. Bu some good food for thought in it.

Charles
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Federalism, and those who support this concept, known as federalists, are supportive of increasing federal power and authority at the expense of individual liberty and state sovereignty. This is why the federalists despised and feared Jefferson, a advocate for individual liberty and state sovereignty.

Federalist were pretty much nationalist. Much like liberals today are not liberal about much.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Really? I think the power to end life is the ultimate power.

sigh....



A fine position, that is hostile to the constitution. So I reject it.

Actually no its not, bit coin seems to be making ways. States did have ways of having their own money too. Just so you understand "money" is nothing but a medium of exchange. I reject a few things in the constitution too.



Actually, there is quite a bit of evidence that legal protection of IP leads to commercial and technological progress, just as protection of physical or real property leads to commerce. Certainly, the lack of such protections (as in communist nations, or even 2nd/3rd world nations lack a system for widespread recognition of who owns property) impairs commerce. A quick search will reveal the number of inventions in the USA vs the rest of the world.

Sure if you ingnore the evidence that supports things that flourished without it.
Also if you ignore the freer the market the more innovative.

Wrong. Funding for the land forces was limited to two years at a time. Funding for the navy did have this limitation. This does not result in a weak military, but rather a military that remains under the control of civilian authority.

Weak as in no standing army, weak as in just enough military to provide protection for commerce (navy). A military to be supported with a low low tarrif on imports.

That is pretty much what I wrote. But it seems you had a hard time understanding a lot of what I wrote, and a very "unique" understanding of the constitution itself.

NO it wasn't you mentioned slavery. Lincoln didn't destroy federalism for slaves. Jim crow laws existed in the north the south copied them after the war to destroy federalism.

Yes, it appears you are interested more in disagreeing and trying to prove you are right than in actually having a dialogue or considering any different points of view.

So I'll leave you to your self.

Aren't you full it. Here I am countering and dialoguing the points I disagree and history disagrees with, yet you want to somehow claim victim?

How about you read a couple of non state approved history books. Kevin Gutzman has done some great historical work. He is not a libertarian or anarchist but a constitutional conservative.
 

Freedom1Man

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SNIP

They delegated the power to print money to the federal government, and barred States from doing so, allowing States only to use gold or silver for currency. Do we want a weak currency? Do we want a weak system of weights and measures? Both would be bad for commerce.
SNIP

Charles

Please cite this constitutional authority to print money.

You have exposed yourself as a liar and a statist with that claim.

Let's see what the federal constitution says.

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

"and to print" is not found in this power now is it? Nope not at all.

Let's see if the states can accept printed [sic] "money".

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Well, that just blows your lie out of the water.
 

OC for ME

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Please cite this constitutional authority to print money.

You have exposed yourself as a liar and a statist with that claim.

Let's see what the federal constitution says.

"and to print" is not found in this power now is it? Nope not at all.

Let's see if the states can accept printed [sic] "money".

Well, that just blows your lie out of the water.
I am comfortable with the use of "paper money." Interestingly paper money is a critter on the verge of extinction given the technology today to complete voluntary transactions between citizens without the actual exchange of "folding money." While I hold "coin of the realm"...just in case, a cheap bottle of vodka would be far more "valuable" in extreme circumstances.

All yankee greenbacks are is a promise and as long as everyone everywhere supports the promise what's the issue. If you don't like yankee greenbacks what alternative do you have?

Some interesting reading: http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/1/essays/42/coinage-clause
 

Grapeshot

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Interesting reading -

Money and the Constitution

The ability of banks to issue money raises some interesting questions about the nature of money and about the legal aspects of its issuance in the United States.
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/essays/ge...entral-banking/money-and-the-constitution.php

However; the continued/on going discussion of banking, money, etc under the Constitution is off topic for this thread.

Return to the original scheduled program, please.
 
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OC for ME

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Thank you.
You are most welcome, my pleasure.

What I find personally instructive is that we arrived at as good of a document/government as we did, only because both sides of that debate worked together in good faith to arrive at their over-arching goal which was a functioning government. The Articles of Confederation were clearly inadequate. ...
The federalist found the Articles inadequate. ;)

Sadly, that is true in many cases. In some others, however, the federal government has worked to protect individual rights against infringement by the States. ...
The courts have eroded our 4A protections to the point that the state, in the name of officer safety, has placed the burden on the citizenry to prove harm vs. the state to prove harm was not done. This is a cruel twisting of the intent of the 4A as envisioned by The Founders. It is true that our rights have been given more respect under the law, but why does it take more laws to respect rights that should never have been questioned in the law. This is the fundamental issue with any government. A very limited government does not grant itself powers that are not explicitly enumerated in the constitution.

The 16th and 17th amendments have certainly caused us some real problems. They have allowed a sinister conclusion between congress taxing, borrowing, and printing money and State legislatures readily ceding power in exchange for money they didn't have to tax.
I get the point of the 16th, disagree with it because the term "income" has been so broadly applied that the phrase "tax slave" hold real meaning. Caesar will extract his tribute, even at the point of a sword. 17th, not on my radar, all states suffer equally.

The 14th has and is being applied far too broadly, to cover "rights" that the nation has not decided are even rights.
Anything we do that harms no other citizen, or that another citizen freely engages with us in, is a right. Now, who gets to define harm is the true debate. The state, in my view, has annexed this privilege.
Brutus' bit about no constitutional power to correct bad court decisions caught my eye. ...
Article III, Section 1. Very instructive if the state had any intestinal fortitude to hold judges accountable.

He notes, correctly in my opinion, that the three branches are co-equal. ...
If only the reality today were in agreement.

These sound like extreme, even illegal or unconstitutional measures to many today. But if used judiciously, are no different than what the courts do routinely. Courts routinely refuse to obey executive branch orders or legislative mandates based on their "co-equal power". So why shouldn't the other branches do likewise in some cases? Impeachment is an inherently political process. Why don't we have sufficient political will to simply fire judges when they show themselves as being grossly hostile to constitutional principles?
The process to fire a judge is easy..the application of the process is difficult.
 
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