CGF REQUEST: Volunteers needed in every county ASAP!

[Michigander]

This fight will be won in Federal Court (something MI did not have available during the last 20 years). Most jurisdictions in CA will comply quickly with license issuance. The hold outs will be raked over the coals.

I wish you guys luck. But it will not be that simple. Something we have had here is a number of federal law suits over the past 3 years. They are expensive, time consuming, and at the end of the day, rogue police don't care about throwing away tax payer money. Like all other criminals, if some Californian cops don't care about the law now, they won't care about it later, after it's changed.

Assuming that everything goes as smoothly as possible, you should still expect Californian gun owners to get pissed on by the Californian government, very much like Chicago pissed on their subjects in the wake of McDonald. I harp on it often, how the Bay and LA regions have some of the very worst police in the USA. They are so bad that I honestly believe the areas would fit better in the EU that the USA. These are not the sort of criminals that you should underestimate. Nor should the potential future misdeeds of the California law makers be underestimated. Each and every detail will likely need to be sorted out in court. It will be an uphill battle, and that's the best case scenario.

 

[Mamma Jude]

Another one for Orange County

Email Sent

 

[AyatollahGondola]

In reviewing the actions of war protesters in Berkeley in the 70's, it appears to me that many hippies were quite often far more audacious and courageous than most modern gun rights activists in California, and that subjects of the state have since then never quite regained their full sense of self respect, instead being rather unusually submissive to the police. (No disrespect intended towards those of you in Cali with a strong will to get things done in the face of overwhelming disapproval, it seems like most hang out on this forum). I am therefore happy that a strategy is available to be spoon fed to those who have any desire to be involved.

I am often stunned by the lack of the 60's spirit. I can remember being in the midst of tear gas cannisters hitting the ground and (luckily not hitting us). The cops were even more prone to beat on people once a mele broke out too. Nowadays, people walk and drive down the street with their heads down. I don't know what happened to us. I still wonder if it ain't sumthin' in the water.
But...with that said, I met quite a few sh!theads during the late 60's that were more interested in just plain tearing things up that trying to accomplish a stated goal. All they would leave is a trashed neighborhood in their wake.

 

[Michigander]

I am often stunned by the lack of the 60's spirit. I can remember being in the midst of tear gas cannisters hitting the ground and (luckily not hitting us). The cops were even more prone to beat on people once a mele broke out too. Nowadays, people walk and drive down the street with their heads down. I don't know what happened to us. I still wonder if it ain't sumthin' in the water.
But...with that said, I met quite a few sh!theads during the late 60's that were more interested in just plain tearing things up that trying to accomplish a stated goal. All they would leave is a trashed neighborhood in their wake.

Realistically, there were 2 civil wars/violent struggles going on at the time in the USA. The effort for blacks to be treated under federal law as equal to whites, and the struggle for the very broad spectrum of people known popularly as hippies to try and end the vietnam war.

Berkeley students and others witnessed and participated in both. They were some of the most extreme rioters. They saw the Black Panthers, and the more respectable Deacons For Defense when going to the south to study/participate in the black civil rights efforts, which contrary to popular belief revolved around a lot of armed blacks, and a lot less defenseless Ghandi style efforts than the gun owner Martin Luther King Junior wanted known at the time. All of this can be read in vintage student publications, which is where I learned about it, being currently a 24 year old.

The Berkeley students were in a perfect place at a perfect time to see that violence is all too often the key solution to the problem of violent bullying oppressors. Why that all went away is something I still don't understand.

Now I'm not saying that the ideas the bay area hippies and black panthers had about lets go kill the police are applicable to todays problems, but I am saying that a fierce spirit of unrelenting, uncompromising resistance is crucial to any successful political change. All of the horse **** "stand downs" I have seen out of California gun rights activists make me want to vomit. As does the acceptance of unconstitutional loaded gun checks. If you can't respect yourself, you shouldn't expect others to respect you, and this is perhaps the biggest roadblock to trying to bring freedom back to the left coast.

 

[AyatollahGondola]

Berkeley students and others witnessed and participated in both. They were some of the most extreme rioters. They saw the Black Panthers, and the more respectable Deacons For Defense when going to the south to study/participate in the black civil rights efforts, which contrary to popular belief revolved around a lot of armed blacks, and a lot less defenseless Ghandi style efforts than the gun owner Martin Luther King Junior wanted known at the time. All of this can be read in vintage student publications, which is where I learned about it, being currently a 24 year old.

I have forgotten what touched off those berkeley riots between blacks and whites, mainly because I missed that fortunately, but I do recall that there were shootings. I remember one of the kids in school brought some photos his brother had taken which showed a couple people shot with birdshot. The black vs white rioting had more to do with anger at white people as opposed to the anti-war skirmishes which were generally young people vs the establishment. We all weren't hippies at all. There may have been an effort by some blacks to latch on to the anti establishment crowd, but truthfully I don't remember that many black antiwar protesters in my circle of conspirators. I do remember coming across a gang of black bikers out on the street in Berkeley in front of a store, and tow or more were sporting bandoliers of shells. I remember this event clearly because as I walked by, one of them said "hey whitey", and the rest of the sentence was lost on me. As it turned out, one black biker was talking to another black biker who had really light skin and that was his nickname.
But the Black panther types were pretty bold to exhibit weapons during such a tumultuous period. Most of the antiwar activists were mainly doing more passive stuff by just refusing to disperse or burning a piece of government issue something or other, (not always a draft card), blocking a street, or flanking a riot squad. Just try and find someone with those qualities today! There are some out there, but they're often quite mad or anarchist types. Not that many weren't anarchists back then.

 

[cato]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5149187&postcount=432

We will be issuing specific instructions to each volunteer; since volunteers may not be performing the same task, and each county will be addressed separately, there's no "one size fits all" here. Trust that we will be contacting you as we are ready to take action in your area.

 

[Michigander]

I have forgotten what touched off those berkeley riots between blacks and whites, mainly because I missed that fortunately, but I do recall that there were shootings. I remember one of the kids in school brought some photos his brother had taken which showed a couple people shot with birdshot. The black vs white rioting had more to do with anger at white people as opposed to the anti-war skirmishes which were generally young people vs the establishment. We all weren't hippies at all. There may have been an effort by some blacks to latch on to the anti establishment crowd, but truthfully I don't remember that many black antiwar protesters in my circle of conspirators.

snip.

The strong impression I have got from my research is that young anti war protestors and blacks were united in their desire to stop crazed murderous criminals employed as police officers. They'd have been stupid not to unite in an effort to stop police abuse. I suppose the problem for the panthers and militant hippies was probably that they never got a lot of good publicity nor attempted to get it by looking professional, and severely lacked the military skill possessed by their successful cousins, the Deacons for Defense. Combined with the fact they were not typically operating strictly within federal laws, it seems to make sense that the cops of the time were literally and metaphorically able to beat everyone into submission.

In comparing the Berkeley protests of the 60's and 70's to the Berkeley protests of today, you may as well be comparing Sgt York to Bono.

 

[AyatollahGondola]

Combined with the fact they were not typically operating strictly within federal laws, it seems to make sense that the cops of the time were literally and metaphorically able to beat everyone into submission.

In comparing the Berkeley protests of the 60's and 70's to the Berkeley protests of today, you may as well be comparing Sgt York to Bono.

Cops were generally of a mindset that anti-war protests were bad for the country, bad for the war effort, and disrespectful of men in uniform doing their duty. In lieu of going to jail, I listened to many lectures about how wrong we were, and how we were being corrupted or influenced by communists (some of the influence was true). But the beatdowns continued because it was acceptable by the larger public. The anti-war protests, although they gained steam, were not big enough at the outset to cause any changes in the manner they were managed. There was lots of publicity though. The press was always there, and always eager to rub the presidents nose in it. I don't think too many of us were interested in going mainstream in an organizational sense. Mainly we thought we were going to cause everything to come to a halt. Stop the traffic, stop the economy, fill the jails over capacity, etc. We stopped traffic, and just pissed off more people; didn't make a dent in the economy, and we found out the the jails seemed to be bottomless. But I do believe we made a big difference eventually. We exposed the public to the unpopularity of that conflict. Before that, it was just another Korea. Once the tide turned, the protests became bigger and the cops withdrew from their former positions of advance to that of crowd management. It was a nice change at the time, but quite obviously with no real enemy to fight, the movement splintered off different directions again, with many activists falling into drugs, and many others going straight.
I don't think we have a real inspirational battle out there yet that would unify enough people to stand up that way. Even 9-11 didn't produce it. This time it's going to have to be pretty powerful to kick start that spirit again. Right now, people still feel they have too much to live for to take risks.

 

[Michigander]

Even 9-11 didn't produce it. This time it's going to have to be pretty powerful to kick start that spirit again. Right now, people still feel they have too much to live for to take risks.

As my dad, a 60's and 70's hippie would point out, there is no draft. This very well explains why the anger towards the government machine isn't enormous in California. It doesn't explain why the anger and resistance is almost non existent, even among the few and proud who have taken the 15 minutes to read the constitution.

 

[kittyhawk63]

I was told not that long ago by a felon cop who unlawfully detained me to sue him and his entire department, among other obnoxious things. This is in a state with sweeping preemption, where the cop didn't have a legal leg to stand on, and he clearly knew it. Other common but less extreme problems involve cities refusing to issue handgun purchase permits, or charging illegal fees and instituting unlawful waiting periods. Efforts such as time consuming hidden camera investigations often but not always manage to fix these things.

The thing that separates California is that not only are people less willing to stick up to cops, the cops are also therefore far more bold, making some of the worst in Michigan look like saints. What it takes to alleviate such things is a very strong, very relentless counter attack, utilizing every legally available advantage. In looking over the thread on calguns, it looks like that is indeed what is being coordinated.

In reviewing the actions of war protesters in Berkeley in the 70's, it appears to me that many hippies were quite often far more audacious and courageous than most modern gun rights activists in California, and that subjects of the state have since then never quite regained their full sense of self respect, instead being rather unusually submissive to the police. (No disrespect intended towards those of you in Cali with a strong will to get things done in the face of overwhelming disapproval, it seems like most hang out on this forum). I am therefore happy that a strategy is available to be spoon fed to those who have any desire to be involved.

Hippies had nothing to lose. They didn't own homes, cars, and most weren't married, and most didn't have jobs. I was living in and attending college in S.F. during the late 60s and early 70s. The hippies were a blight on the city. They were directly responsible for many businesses closing their doors in the Haight-Ashbury district. They would hang out in front of the stores doing their drugs, mauling each other sexually, just being a pain in the ass for business owners. People stopped going to these stores to buy items. It took a long time for this district to come back to full life.

You can be as bold an activist you want when you have nothing at stake, nothing to lose.

 

[AyatollahGondola]

As my dad, a 60's and 70's hippie would point out, there is no draft. This very well explains why the anger towards the government machine isn't enormous in California. It doesn't explain why the anger and resistance is almost non existent, even among the few and proud who have taken the 15 minutes to read the constitution.

There is a draft. they've drafted the National Guard as full time soldiers. They drafted soldiers whose tour of duty was over through stop loss. True they are not drafting 18 to 26 year olds in general, but I'd bet the NG and the stop loss soldiers believe they've been drafted. It wasn't just the draft that had us all riled up. It was the way we entered the war, and the way we fought the war, and the coffins returning, and escalation into laos, cambodia, and the lack of a clearly defined enemy/objectives. We were not the saviours in Vietnam as we had been before in previous wars. We weren't liberating welcoming villagers who had been oppressed by nazis or overwhelmed by north korean soldiers. This time, we were the aggressors, and the media was showing the world just how barbaric we could be in saving the world from communism. Being drafted wasn't the end of the world before Vietnam. It was why you were being drafted that made the difference.

 

[AyatollahGondola]

Hippies had nothing to lose. They didn't own homes, cars, and most weren't married, and most didn't have jobs. I was living in and attending college in S.F. during the late 60s and early 70s. The hippies were a blight on the city. They were directly responsible for many businesses closing their doosr in the Haight-Ashbury district. They would hang out in front of the stores doing their drugs, mauling each other sexually, just being a pain in the ass for business owners. People stopped going to these stores to buy items. It took a long time for this district to come back to full life.

You can be as bold an activist you want when you have nothing at stake, nothing to lose.

Agreed that hippiedom was taken to an extreme, but most movements end up that way. Freedom and liberation morphed into apathy and cultism. Drugs overtook the philosophy unfortunately. Drugs overrule many philosophies once they are introduced into them. I haven't visited the haight since about '93 or '94 or so, but it hadn't changed all that much since the 60's that I saw then. With the exception that there were fewer places to park, and more pedestrians. People were just abandoning their cars in the street as opposed to parking them. I had to wait for someone to shop and get back in the car to move it

Ummm. Everyone has something to lose and a life at stake, if not some form of a future. Sometimes possessions are little else than golden handcuffs

 

[Michigander]

Hippies had nothing to lose. They didn't own homes, cars, and most weren't married, and most didn't have jobs.

snip

You can be as bold an activist you want when you have nothing at stake, nothing to lose.

Nonsense. Most of the activist measures I have been a part of that most on this forum would agree are on the more audacious end of OC activism, it's been with middle aged adults who are married, have full time jobs, and usually kids, kids who they want to inherit a better world than we have now.

Sticking up to cops and law makers, telling them that you will uphold the law if they won't, it isn't about to cost you a job, a house, or a marriage. If it could, you have personal issues reaching far beyond the scope of constitutional activism.

 

[kittyhawk63]

Nonsense. Most of the activist measures I have been a part of that most on this forum would agree are on the more audacious end of OC activism, it's been with middle aged adults who are married, have full time jobs, and usually kids, kids who they want to inherit a better world than we have now.

I commend you and the gang here for standing up for what you believe. That is why I have joined this forum. I wanted to be part of a group of law-abiding citizens who wanted things to change and were willing to use the law and the courts to bring about this change.

Sticking up to cops and law makers, telling them that you will uphold the law if they won't, it isn't about to cost you a job, a house, or a marriage. If it could, you have personal issues reaching far beyond the scope of constitutional activism.

Tell that to the late Erik Scott of LV-NV. It cost him his life. He was CCW and was still shot and killed by 3 police officers after he explained to them he was legally carrying. Unfortunately, in this country, we don't have the good fortune of living by the strict letter of the law. POs seem to think the law is relative and not binding on them. I just think we need to pick our fights carefully and not be mindless agitators trying to prove a point about our freedoms. I am not accusing you of being this way. Even though this has not been discussed to this point that I know of, if we are not heard after every meaningful attempt and means we have available, then and only then would I seriously consider supporting civil disobedience.

I have no desire to engage in a continual verbal battle with you, but I would like to ask, aren't you the one that gave up his ID? So in retrospect, just how far did your middle class, activist's philosophy take you in that one situation? I am not asking you for a reply. I just want you to think it over. Personally, I think you counted the cost. I submit, before I am challenged, I may be very much wrong. If I am, I sincerely apologize. I am not intending to offend you or anyone else. You definitely have every right to your opinions and I appreciate it when you express them.


As one of my friends says on his radio broadcast, "Now, you go out and have a great day."

 

[Michigander]

I commend you and the gang here for standing up for what you believe. That is why I have joined this forum. I wanted to be part of a group of law-abiding citizens who wanted things to change and were willing to use the law and the courts to bring about this change.

Tell that to the late Erik Scott of LV-NV. It cost him his life. He was CCW and was still shot and killed by 3 police officers after he explained to them he was legally carrying. Unfortunately, in this country, we don't have the good fortune of living by the strict letter of the law. POs seem to think the law is relative and not binding on them. I just think we need to pick our fights carefully and not be mindless agitators trying to prove a point about our freedoms. I am not accusing you of being this way. Even though this has not been discussed to this point that I know of, if we are not heard after every meaningful attempt and means we have available, then and only then would I seriously consider supporting civil disobedience.

I have no desire to engage in a continual verbal battle with you, but I would like to ask, aren't you the one that gave up his ID? So in retrospect, just how far did your middle class, activist's philosophy take you in that one situation? I am not asking you for a reply. I just want you to think it over. Personally, I think you counted the cost. I submit, before I am challenged, I may be very much wrong. If I am, I sincerely apologize. I am not intending to offend you or anyone else. You definitely have every right to your opinions and I appreciate it when you express them.


As one of my friends says on his radio broadcast, "Now, you go out and have a great day."

Sometimes I have given cops my ID, and sometimes I haven't. Half the time I have it was because they took it unlawfully, the other half was after the fact when they were going to get it anyway for a complaint investigation. Once, and only once, I gave it to them on request during an incident, and this was with an understanding that I would take their names, and complain to the sheriff.

When situations get sticky, as in when you don't want someone getting shot by felon cops, you need to have at least 8 armed adults who also have video cameras. A lawyer on speed dial would also be good. This is what I would call a minimal investigative response team to send in to a city with rogue cops in the aftermath of abuse. Guns bring with them a chance of getting shot, but then so does not having one. It's a brutal world, and I don't think too much can be inferred from the one tragic event in Nevada.

I do not know that I'd call myself middle class, I'm more of a lower class construction worker going to school to be an auto mechanic. Nor do I think I'd call OCers in Michigan generally middle class. It's about 50% lower class, 50% middle, and 5% or less upper class folks. The style of activism for us, more than anything, has been to discuss and aggressively carry out what we believe will work.

I think the beauty of open carry activism is that it is civilly obedient, and it turns rogue police and sometimes state law makers and judges into the criminal activists. No where has this become clearer than in California. The founders set it up so that as long as there is a means to enforce the constitution, there will be little to no reason to pursue civil disobedience.

 

[AyatollahGondola]

I just think we need to pick our fights carefully and not be mindless agitators trying to prove a point about our freedoms. I am not accusing you of being this way. Even though this has not been discussed to this point that I know of, if we are not heard after every meaningful attempt and means we have available, then and only then would I seriously consider supporting civil disobedience. ."

Where does the term "every meaningful attempt" actually end? 30 years ago I took a walk with my shotgun and was waved at by a cop...if I saw one. This month the same walk saw me down on the pavement in handcuffs. I don't know if my memory is longer than most or not, but it seems to me that meaningful attempts have still caused the loss of our rights overall. Alot has been taken away over 50 years, and when we get a small win we are supposed to be appeased. Meanwhile, there are more cops per square feet supposedly to protect us, but I seem to be 'splainin' myself to them all the time as if I was a criminal.

 

[cato]

Thread-jacked though I guess 'activism' and to the extent we take it is related. Thanks to all who have e-mailed. About 500+ volunteers have answered the call so far. Some of the rural counties are under represented so if that's you get on board!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5168103&postcount=526

 

[kittyhawk63]

Sometimes I have given cops my ID, and sometimes I haven't. Half the time I have it was because they took it unlawfully, the other half was after the fact when they were going to get it anyway for a complaint investigation. Once, and only once, I gave it to them on request during an incident, and this was with an understanding that I would take their names, and complain to the sheriff.

When situations get sticky, as in when you don't want someone getting shot by felon cops, you need to have at least 8 armed adults who also have video cameras. A lawyer on speed dial would also be good. This is what I would call a minimal investigative response team to send in to a city with rogue cops in the aftermath of abuse. Guns bring with them a chance of getting shot, but then so does not having one. It's a brutal world, and I don't think too much can be inferred from the one tragic event in Nevada.

I do not know that I'd call myself middle class, I'm more of a lower class construction worker going to school to be an auto mechanic. Nor do I think I'd call OCers in Michigan generally middle class. It's about 50% lower class, 50% middle, and 5% or less upper class folks. The style of activism for us, more than anything, has been to discuss and aggressively carry out what we believe will work.

I think the beauty of open carry activism is that it is civilly obedient, and it turns rogue police and sometimes state law makers and judges into the criminal activists. No where has this become clearer than in California. The founders set it up so that as long as there is a means to enforce the constitution, there will be little to no reason to pursue civil disobedience.

I appreciate your comments. Thank you.
kittyhawk63

 

[tk6151]

email sent

email sent

 

[r1man]

Email sent!