Chambered or Unchambered

[DreQo]

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Handguns w/o an external, user activated safety are not non-safe. They have safeties, preventing it from firing w/o the trigger being pulled, drop safeties, magazine disconnects, out-of-battery safeties, and so on.

Like I said before, the best way to carry is the way that makes you the most comfortable, period. With that in mind, it's a fact that condition 3 greatly reduces a gun's effectiveness, it's a fact that a gun w/o an external safety is no less safe than a gun with one, and it is a fact that a properly made handgun in a properly made holster virtually CANNOT go off accidentally, as the trigger is covered.

Being confident and comfortable is whats important. If you're not both of those, then a gun will do you no good, but don't blame the gun for you not being comfortable with it. It only does what you make it do, after all.

 

[uncoolperson]

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DreQo wrote:

Being confident and comfortable is whats important. If you're not both of those, then a gun will do you no good, but don't blame the gun for you not being comfortable with it. It only does what you make it do, after all.

i hate to do it... but a car only does what i make it do, still it took me awhile to become proficient enough to become comfortable to drive my car around.

i don't blame the gun, i just say it's different and i need to get used to it.

 

[SouthernBoy]

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uncoolperson wrote:

a properly designed blank can.

I appologize, i was remembering back when i was thinking of doing some ww2 reenacting.... the guns were modified (i forgot about this).

at face value it sounds like a good idea... BUT, a blank can hurt someone pretty dang good too... And my reason for not would be that it would create a sense of carelessness, always knowing (if only in the back of my mind) "the first one is just a blank".... the one time you wish it was just a blank is the one time you forgot to make sure it was just a blank.

I go unchambered... but that's just me, i know i'm no quick thinker (those poor souls on that area 51 arcade game), i figure a few seconds to rack is a few seconds to better think.

but then again my choice is flawed to, in that i 'know' there's nothing chambered.

You have already garnished a collection of responses to your post, so I am not about to add to those. Neither am I of a mind to insult or degrade you or your decision to carry in the mode you have described. So please do not think anything which follows to be disparaging or condemning in any way.

Members on this site/forum are constantly exchanging ideas, opinions, and thoughts about being put in an extreme situation where they may have to deliver a projectile into the body of an antagonist which could result in his serious injury or death. This is very serious business and those of use who have not had to do this yet are in a continual state of looking for information about just such a scenario in order to maybe help us take the right decision and survive such a deadly encounter.

The first step in all of this is having a weapon handy which measures up to the task at hand. This does not mean a weapon which is not loaded or one which, though loaded, is not in battery. What this does mean is having a weapon at the ready whose state is such where all that is necessary to put it into play is minimum user effort.

Once again, I am not in any way condemning your or your method of preparedness, but I would suggest you consider this. If you are not at a point with firearms where you are totally comfortable with having them in a 100% state of readiness, you might want to consider not having them around your presence at all. The reason I say this is quite simple.

When an attack comes, there are many times when it can occur so quickly and so suddenly, that if your weapon is not in such a state that all that needs to be done to use it is to pull the trigger, you may find yourself breathing your final breathes of life.

I am only offering this as an alternate condition because I would hate to hear of one of our members succombing to a deadly attack. Life has no guarantees and that is a good thing. Howerver, life can and should be cherished and protected. Please do yourself a favor and become comfortale with your weapon to the extent that if you ever need it, all you need to do is pull the trigger and it goes bang.

Incidently, I am uncomfortable carrying a single action semi-auto pistol (such as a 1911 styled piece) in Condition 1. On the other hand, I am quite comfortable carrying my Glocks or my Kahrs in full battery.

 

[acrimsontide]

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SouthernBoy wrote:

uncoolperson wrote:

a properly designed blank can.

I appologize, i was remembering back when i was thinking of doing some ww2 reenacting.... the guns were modified (i forgot about this).

at face value it sounds like a good idea... BUT, a blank can hurt someone pretty dang good too... And my reason for not would be that it would create a sense of carelessness, always knowing (if only in the back of my mind) "the first one is just a blank".... the one time you wish it was just a blank is the one time you forgot to make sure it was just a blank.

I go unchambered... but that's just me, i know i'm no quick thinker (those poor souls on that area 51 arcade game), i figure a few seconds to rack is a few seconds to better think.

but then again my choice is flawed to, in that i 'know' there's nothing chambered.

You have already garnished a collection of responses to your post, so I am not about to add to those. Neither am I of a mind to insult or degrade you or your decision to carry in the mode you have described. So please do not think anything which follows to be disparaging or condemning in any way.

Members on this site/forum are constantly exchanging ideas, opinions, and thoughts about being put in an extreme situation where they may have to deliver a projectile into the body of an antagonist which could result in his serious injury or death. This is very serious business and those of use who have not had to do this yet are in a continual state of looking for information about just such a scenario in order to maybe help us take the right decision and survive such a deadly encounter.

The first step in all of this is having a weapon handy which measures up to the task at hand. This does not mean a weapon which is not loaded or one which, though loaded, is not in battery. What this does mean is having a weapon at the ready whose state is such where all that is necessary to put it into play is minimum user effort.

Once again, I am not in any way condemning your or your method of preparedness, but I would suggest you consider this. If you are not at a point with firearms where you are totally comfortable with having them in a 100% state of readiness, you might want to consider not having them around your presence at all. The reason I say this is quite simple.

When an attack comes, there are many times when it can occur so quickly and so suddenly, that if your weapon is not in such a state that all that needs to be done to use it is to pull the trigger, you may find yourself breathing your final breathes of life.

I am only offering this as an alternate condition because I would hate to hear of one of our members succombing to a deadly attack. Life has no guarantees and that is a good thing. Howerver, life can and should be cherished and protected. Please do yourself a favor and become comfortale with your weapon to the extent that if you ever need it, all you need to do is pull the trigger and it goes bang.

Incidently, I am uncomfortable carrying a single action semi-auto pistol (such as a 1911 styled piece) in Condition 1. On the other hand, I am quite comfortable carrying my Glocks or my Kahrs in full battery.

All good points. I agree that if someone is uncomfortable having a firearm ready for use, additional training would be a good way to make that person become more familiar with their weapon of choice so they would feel comfortable carrying with one in the chamber. Each person should be comfortable with their own personal weapon. I personally carry a Kimber 1911 in condition one and am comfortable with it, but then I have carried a 1911 type weapon in condition one for almost 40 years.

 

[imperialism2024]

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I don't recall the thread on here where it was mentioned, but if one is uncomfortable carrying with a round chambered out of fear of an "accidental" discharge, try the following: clear your weapon, check it thoroughly, load a snap cap and chamber it, and then proceed to drop it, toss it around a bit, and basically try to do anything that you can think of to make it "accidentally" discharge. Then take out the snap cap and look for a firing pin print. See anything? If not, you don't have to worry about an "accidental" discharge. If so, get another gun.

Sorry, I just have an issue with carrying a gun without a round chambered. To me, it reflects the notion that guns are these animate objects that "go off" unless they're controlled.

To use the driving analogy, a new driver doesn't deactivate all but one cylinder and brakes on three of the wheels in order to make sure the car more "comfortable" to drive. A new driver takes the car in all its glory, and drives it. He doesn't start with a partial car and build up to a whole car.

 

[ijusam]

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The freedom to choose is what matters. 2A confirms our right to choose. A right is not a mandatory. And carrying a gun is not a guarantee we will go home at night. Carrying a gun in your backpack and a bullet in your shoe is acceptable if that is the way you feel comfortable. However the broom handle in the corner may be more useful. I was fortunate in as I never considered not having one chambered. I did hesitate over condition 1 or 2. (condition 1 won) . while I carry a p3at in my front pocket without a holster, I would highly suggest that it is the only thing in that pocket.

Carry concealed, carry open, carry in the most ready (legal) condition you can feel comfortable with, and train well and often, and if TSHTF maybe we can all go home. YMMV

 

[Thundar]

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Your choice. Whatever you choose, practice, practice, practice. Buying and using snap caps for practice may also improve your confidence.

 

[Stealth Potato]

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uncoolperson wrote:

I have to say, i'd complete advocate carrying a gun unloaded with a magazine or speed loader seperate... no one should try to convince someone to do something they arn't comfortable with. What's the statistic something like 90% of all self denfense handgun use is without firing a shot.

then again, i'm making the switch from a revolver (4 loaded in a 5 round [empty chamber under the hammer]) to a 1911.... gotta wait till i'm comfy.

Just curious: why would you have an empty chamber under the hammer? Was it an older SAO revolver? I was under the impression that most modern revolvers used transfer bars or hammer blocks, so the round under the hammer could not be discharged if the trigger was not pulled, even if the hammer was struck forcibly. Seems to me that carrying hammer down on a full wheel would be quite safe. (But then, I only own one revolver and it's not my carry piece, so this isn't my area of expertise.)

I carry a Kimber 1911 - it is almost always cocked and locked. The only exception was that until recently (before I finally got around to getting my Washington CPL) I would carry unchambered when I had to drive somewhere or ride a bus, so I could unload/load easily and discreetly when entering/exiting a vehicle. (Carrying a loaded gun in any vehicle, even openly, is illegal here in WA without a CPL.)

But by all means, it's important to carry in a way that is comfortable for you, although I would encourage everybody to make an effort to become comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber. A gun that requires an additional action to place it in battery is certainly much better than not having a gun when you need one, but a gun that is ready when you are is best of all.

 

[uncoolperson]

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Stealth Potato wrote:

uncoolperson wrote:

I have to say, i'd complete advocate carrying a gun unloaded with a magazine or speed loader seperate... no one should try to convince someone to do something they arn't comfortable with. What's the statistic something like 90% of all self denfense handgun use is without firing a shot.

then again, i'm making the switch from a revolver (4 loaded in a 5 round [empty chamber under the hammer]) to a 1911.... gotta wait till i'm comfy.

Just curious: why would you have an empty chamber under the hammer? Was it an older SAO revolver? I was under the impression that most modern revolvers used transfer bars or hammer blocks, so the round under the hammer could not be discharged if the trigger was not pulled, even if the hammer was struck forcibly. Seems to me that carrying hammer down on a full wheel would be quite safe. (But then, I only own one revolver and it's not my carry piece, so this isn't my area of expertise.)

I carry a Kimber 1911 - it is almost always cocked and locked. The only exception was that until recently (before I finally got around to getting my Washington CPL) I would carry unchambered when I had to drive somewhere or ride a bus, so I could unload/load easily and discreetly when entering/exiting a vehicle. (Carrying a loaded gun in any vehicle, even openly, is illegal here in WA without a CPL.)

But by all means, it's important to carry in a way that is comfortable for you, although I would encourage everybody to make an effort to become comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber. A gun that requires an additional action to place it in battery is certainly much better than not having a gun when you need one, but a gun that is ready when you are is best of all.

sorry never got back to you

My revolver does have a block in it.... but the revolver before that one took black powder and a primer, so it's just one of those safety things that's stuck with me. (resting a hammer on a primer just never looked like a good idea). The only way you learn is through past experiences.

my first revolver was a black powder... my first carry was a revolver (not black powder)... my first auto had no external safeties, which i learned the "scary way" (i'm an idiot at times... okay usually)

my first day at the range, me being a genious i didn't read the manual, chambered a round looked for the safety removed the mag, then looked some more (barrel down range at all times), then the classic 'my finger slipped' (mostly i'm an idiot again) and BANG!. nice burns on my finger (which being an idiot was resting on the front of the pistol, right below the barrel). I'm pretty sure that is beyond negligent discharge, maybe doesn't deserve opposible thumbs discharge (but hey, atleast i was smart enough to keep the barrel down range, i ACCIDENTLY got the shot on paper 7 yards).

amoung the dozens of things i did wrong, this was also my first time with an auto, and my first time using a pistol in 10+years (the last time being when i was 9). and i went out to try it out on my own, without any guidance, without reading the manual, thinking i knew everything, and without paying attention to 'the rules'.

i will accept that i'm and idiot, and offer this as proof (no need to point it out, it's already done, thanks).

but i'm really just sharing my reasons, which for whatever reason (revolver looked cool, black powder sounded fun, i'm a friggen idiot and if darwin were correct would've been out of the gene pool long ago) form my current carry state.

 

[Bersa45]

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Always one in the chamber. Many LEO will tell you, if you're not ready with one in the chamber, why bother.

 

[SouthernBoy]

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Bersa45 wrote:

Always one in the chamber. Many LEO will tell you, if you're not ready with one in the chamber, why bother.

I wish I could impress upon some that the speed at which an attack can occur is far more than one might guess. And because of this, good people do get injured or killed. While that is one way of "culling the herd", so to speak, it is not at all something I would wish for good and decent people.

For this reason, you should be of a mind to remove any impediments restricting your immediate access and use of your your weapon. The time it can take to chamber a round in a semi-auto pistol can get you killed.

If is for these reasons, I suggested that perhaps if someone prefers carrying a firearm which is not in battery, they may be better off not carrying one at all.

 

[Superlite27]

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+1 Southernboy. The entire idea of carrying a firearm is to be prepared to defend yourself in case you are surprised. If you always knew when you were going to be attacked, wouldn't you just avoid it? Not having one in the pipe adds a step to putting your firearm in operating condition. If you REALLY wanted to be EXTRA SAFE, why not completely dissassemble your pistol and carry all the parts in different pockets?

If a person is surprised, REFLEX is a huge part of their reaction. The fewer things to do before the knife actually enters your body, the better.

My 1911 has about a gazillion safeties on it to keep it from accidentally going off. Something it will never do anyway. If it goes off when I don't want it to, I AM DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

I highly reccommend LEARNING to carry correctly and safely with one in the chamber. You might not be comfortable with it, but doing so will actually cause you to become SAFER.

Why safer? Because when you carry one in the chamber,you MUST payvery close attentionto what you are doing. There is too much complacency without one in the pipe. It SEEMS safer. You can subliminally tell yourself, "I don't need to be as careful because there isn't one in the chamber." Therefore.....you learn the habits of carrying unchambered.

Whereas, if you carry chambered, you will learn the habits of carrying chambered.

If you have ALREADY LEARNED to carry unchambered, I do not reccommend suddenly starting to carry with a round chambered.

(BTW....Where are you supposed to point the muzzle if you were in a "situation"? If a potential attacker suddenly surprised you, would you point the firearm at them while racking the slide? After all, wouldn't it be dangerous to point it at someone while racking the slide? Especially if you determined you didn't need to fire. Yet, would you point the muzzle in a safe direction? Where is a safe direction? Would you dare remove your sight picture away from the threat? Why would you intentionally NOT point your weapon at a threat that could take your life? These are just a few questions that need consideration before the knife actually enters your body.)

I'm fairly certain I've cut out a few time consuming considerations from my reaction to a dangerous threat.

 

[deepdiver]

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I started off carrying my XD .45 in condition 3 for a few months. I hadn't handled firearms in a number of years and had never had any extensive experience or training with a semi-auto, just a dozen mags or so at the range over the years with friend's firearms. Intellectually I knew that condition 1 was fine, but emotionally I wasn't comfortable.

Finally was given a suggestion by a local instructor. The XD has no condition 2 option due to design, so he suggested that I rack the slide without a mag so that the striker was cocked on an empty chamber and put the mag in (rather than loading with a snap cap) - condition 3 chambering with a condition one trigger/striker. And then he told me to carry it that way until I was convinced that it would never discharge until I made it do so. And if he was wrong, the striker just hit an empty chamber anyway. After about a week of the sear not releasing the striker through my normal life, my intellect won out over my emotions and I started carrying condition 1 or 2 depending on the weapon.

For some of us it just takes a little time to work such things out in our heads and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

 

[tarzan1888]

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Beau wrote:

......I read a post about a guy who was carrying a compact in his front pocket ant shot himself in the leg while trying to remove his keys from same pocket.........

Sounds like an argument for NOT carrying a compact gun in a pocket, but in a holster.

An unloaded gun is an expensive rock. To me a gun that doesn't have a round in the chamber, is unloaded.



Tarzan

 

[darwin-t]

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I carry a full size 1911 (Rock Island with Crimson Trace grips) in condition 1 - that's a live round in the chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety engaged.

I've had a negligent discharge already, but it wasn't related to carrying.

http://negligentdischarge.com

I used to carry a Kel Tec P11 - it's DAO with a loooonnnngggg trigger pull. Live round in chamber, it had no safety.

Before that I carried a Sterling .22 - empty chamber with safety on. It was a silly way to do it. The safety was pretty good and it has a 12 lb trigger pull,.

I guess it depends on the gun. I wouldn't feel safe carrying a Glock though. I'm funny that way.

Funny story. I had a Springfiled Champion - a Commander size 1911. I later got a Para 14-45 and carried it in the same holster. I thought I was concealing it pretty well but didn't realize the muzzle wore a hole in my jeans.The muzzle stuck out and was quire noticable. I had a picture of it but can't find it now.

 

[GreenDrake]

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I carry every day with a round chambered. Unless you are profficient in the Israeli draw, which very few people are, the chances of being able to react are greatly reduced without a ready weapon.

 

[ODA 226]

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I always carry my Springfield Compact .45 locked and cocked. ALWAYS! Now that summer has arrived, I'm carrying it in my pocket but in a Galco Pocket Holster. I have a spare mag in my left pocket also in a Galco Pocket Mag carrier. This combo works great, is secure and extremely comfortable.

http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPT3.asp?ProductID=771&CatalogID=393

BTW: Loading a blank for your first round is extremely foolhardy and don't forget that blanks can kill also!

 

[ScottyT]

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Beau wrote:

I read a post about a guy who was carrying a compact in his front pocket ant shot himself in the leg while trying to remove his keys from same pocket. Don't know if story is true or not. I've heard similar stories time to time.

Pocket guns should either be in a pocket holster (so the trigger can't be pulled!) or carried without one in the chamber.

I always carry my primary ready to rock, but for deep concealment I carry my wife's KelTec P3AT with just the belt clip, no holster, so I do not chamber a round as that would be extremely foolish and just asking for trouble -- like women who carry a revolver in their purse sans holster - too much stuff to catch on the trigger.

 

[unreconstructed1]

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as others have said, blanks can kill you just as dead as live rounds can. just remember what happened to Brandon Lee while filming "the crow"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_(film)#Brandon_Lee.27s_death

another thing that you really need to think about is the fact that a blank fired from close proximity ( such as being in someones pocket) can cause nearly as much damage as a live round.

another actor John-Erik Hexum was killed by a blank round due to the wad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum#Death

let's view this in a different way, also.

it is recommended that you clean any firearm that has been firing blanks. why? due to the same wad taht killed Hexum. it is very possible for small pieces of it to become jammed in the rifling of the gun. So let's say that you had you weapon loaded with blanks and had to use it. you pull it and double tap, but teh gun jamms, due to the fact that the wad remnants jammed your bullet in the barrel. besides the damage to your gun ( and quite possibly, yourself) that bullet will now have to be extracted before it is ready to fire. suddenly, you are faced with an aggressor and no viable means to defend yourself.

thats a risk that I wouldn't take.

 

[ODA 226]

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ScottyT wrote:

Pocket guns should either be in a pocket holster (so the trigger can't be pulled!) or carried without one in the chamber.

+1!