City of Washington OC ban

[ChiangShih]

So in short, despite all of your back-patting and all of your "good PR", you've managed to get absolutely zilch accomplished, or about as much as Bess and Darrow......lol. Nice try.

How is getting good PR and helping organize and develop a stronger cohesive OC group and presence on the west side of Missouri doing "about as much as Bess and Darrow"? Seriously, I'm curious how you've come to that conclusion. I think Masse did a pretty nice sum up of what I've contributed, again thank you Masse.

Name one that has lifted an OC ban.....again, patiently waiting for the list. You can't point to inaction and claim it as an accomplishment for your group.

Not getting OC banned in random municipalities really isn't "inaction," it is the result of a positive and professional OC presence. We've been doing our city tour and as we have been on national news and local news while doing so.

It's simply not quantifiable. It may well be that none of those munis have placed a local ban on OC DESPITE anything you folks are doing.

It is about as quantifiable as OC being a deterrent to crime. In that respect, again, I feel the lack of negative response in the face of our continual presence can only quantify as a positive outcome in favor of how we do things over here.

But I digress, you are quick to point out how great you are and how pathetic everyone else is,

Never said everyone else is pathetic. I said there are certain individuals and actions I find to be pathetic. If you self identify as pathetic or beta-male that's not my fault.

and in reality, you haven't accomplished anything more than those you sit there and deride.

I think I and others would disagree.

Perhaps one of these days you'll realize that a single person can't fix the OC problems we have in this state any more than one person can singlehandedly "ruin it for everyone else".

I think it is quite clear a single bad apple can cause turmoil or even stall (or spur) legislative action. A few bad apples have proven to derail entire movements.

Ask California what happens when you dont play politics... " with the recent passage and signing of AB 144 by Govenor Brown, Open Carry of unloaded handguns is no longer legal in most of California effective Jan 1, 2012."

But it must be nice to live in that big glass house on the hill whilst you chuck rocks at all the passersby.

Our glass house was built through positive action and positive response in the OC movement. It is pretty sturdy, so I'll keep on chucking stones.

 

[Thomas Masse]

So save it for somebody who's buying it, because that sure as heck isn't me.

Well that's shame that you aren't looking to buy good ideas. I'd give them to you for free.

 

[ChiangShih]

The facts are, despite all of your self-congratulating and self-importance, you KC folks have managed to accomplish the same thing that the folks in the rest of the state have

CERTAIN folks in the rest of the state (specifically the STL side) have done more damage to the OC movement than anti-gunners

(perhaps less if you consider that some STL folks actually got a couple of bills in committee this year).

Certain individuals have worked very hard on that side. We acknowledge that. We are also acknowledging that those folks who work hard (and seem to represent the minority) are set back by dumb dumbs like Darrow and Bess (and others who act like them) and that is who we are directing our discontent at. That is the point of this thread. That was the source of MSPGunner's anger as well; (one of those hard working folks who himself acknowledges the damaging effects of bad PR). Bad PR which I am blaming on dumb-dumb-baby OCers that seem to share common personality types and motivation.

 

[cshoff]

How is getting good PR and helping organize and develop a stronger cohesive OC group and presence on the west side of Missouri doing "about as much as Bess and Darrow"? Seriously, I'm curious how you've come to that conclusion. I think Masse did a pretty nice sum up of what I've contributed, again thank you Masse.

So you are saying that your group HAS accomplished more? Then I ask again, where are all of the OC bans being lifted and where is your presence in Jeff City? Not asking for your personal contributions, asking you for your ACCOMPLISHMENTS. Big difference there.

Not getting OC banned in random municipalities really isn't "inaction," it is the result of a positive and professional OC presence. We've been doing our city tour and as we have been on national news and local news while doing so.

There are many more municipalities, townships, and cities in the STL area that HAVEN'T banned OC than those that have. So if we apply your logic, that must be a result of a "positive and professional OC presence", right?

It is about as quantifiable as OC being a deterrent to crime. In that respect, again, I feel the lack of negative response in the face of our continual presence can only quantify as a positive outcome in favor of how we do things over here.

So then by default, and as I stated above, it must be the same on the East side of the state, right? There are many more locales that did NOT institute OC bans than those that have over the past couple of years. So why are you not giving the East side folks the same amount of praise that you are heaping on yourself?

Never said everyone else is pathetic. I said there are certain individuals and actions I find to be pathetic. If you self identify as pathetic or beta-male that's not my fault.

Those individuals likely find you pathetic as well (which is the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread).

I think I and others would disagree.

I'm sure everyone in your little clique thinks you've done quite well. Still, where it really matters (OC Preemption), you guys haven't done any more than the folks from the "wrong" side of the state.

I think it is quite clear a single bad apple can cause turmoil or even stall (or spur) legislative action. A few bad apples have proven to derail entire movements.

Ask California what happens when you dont play politics... " with the recent passage and signing of AB 144 by Govenor Brown, Open Carry of unloaded handguns is no longer legal in most of California effective Jan 1, 2012."

Yes, a single incident can certainly cause turmoil, but there is no single incident responsible for the current state of OC affairs in this state right now. This is years in the making, mostly by legislative actions that have taken place in Jeff City.

Our glass house was built through positive action and positive response in the OC movement. It is pretty sturdy, so I'll keep on chucking stones.

Sturdy, yet to this point, entirely ineffective (just like those of everyone else).

 

[ChiangShih]

So you are saying that your group HAS accomplished more? Then I ask again, where are all of the OC bans being lifted and where is your presence in Jeff City? Not asking for your personal contributions, asking you for your ACCOMPLISHMENTS. Big difference there.

I've already answered most of this (please refer to previous posts). Aside from what I've already stated, all of us have created a strong cohesive OC presence where there was none just over a year ago, matching the numbers of the STL side (which I kind of already stated). But as I said, careful reading of my previous posts should supply you with my perspective.

There are many more municipalities, townships, and cities in the STL area that HAVEN'T banned OC than those that have. So if we apply your logic, that must be a result of a "positive and professional OC presence", right?

We aren't attacking the STL group as a whole, try to remember that lest you build a straw-man. I'm sure there are many STLOCers acting with a positive profession presence. Certain individuals on the STL side have incurred negative response due to their actions, which I find blatantly stupid and a direct result of their personality types and motivation to OC.

So then by default, and as I stated above, it must be the same on the East side of the state, right? There are many more locales that did NOT institute OC bans than those that have over the past couple of years. So why are you not giving the East side folks the same amount of praise that you are heaping on yourself?

The professional politically minded folks on the east side deserve just as much praise, as many of them play no part in the kind of behavior that results in negative PR. It is not entirely their fault this movement seems to draw idiots like flies.

Those individuals likely find you pathetic as well (which is the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread).

I've done nothing to earn that title. That is the difference. If someone finds me pathetic it is probably a defense mechanism. They've self identified with something I've stated and got all butt-hurt.

I'm sure everyone in your little clique thinks you've done quite well. Still, where it really matters (OC Preemption), you guys haven't done any more than the folks from the "wrong" side of the state.

At least we or anyone who affiliates with us aren't -hurting- the movement.

Yes, a single incident can certainly cause turmoil, but there is no single incident responsible for the current state of OC affairs in this state right now. This is years in the making, mostly by legislative actions that have taken place in Jeff City.

Sturdy, yet to this point, entirely ineffective (just like those of everyone else).[/QUOTE]

I don't agree we've been ineffective as a group, but as I've stated being ineffective is better than facilitating members that hurt the movement or require damage control.

 

[cshoff]

Chiang - that's just the thing. No group or entity has claimed any kind of association with the individuals you have taken issue with. Likewise, those individuals haven't claimed any kind of association with any group or entity either. What has happened here is that a couple of individuals have acted on their own behalf and under their own free will. To say that some group has "facilitated" those actions is utter and complete BS, and you SHOULD be smart enough to know that.

The point that you continue to miss here is that NOBODY controls how these individuals act and how they go about lawfully exercising their rights - and nobody should be so brazen and hold themselves so high over everyone else that they would try. Whether you like it or not, as long as these folks aren't breaking the law, your opinion (and my opinion) and the opinion of anyone else, is entirely irrelevant. Page after page of crying, name calling, and finger pointing comes off as nothing more than sour grapes - and still, nothing is getting accomplished.

 

[LMTD]

Are you retarded?

No, he is not retarded, he is engaging in a discussion expressing a rational concise point of view, it differing from others view does not make it retarded.

The point has been lost in this conversation and pretty much clears up the very reason the movement for OC in MO remains stagnant.

Bess has not been caught breaking any laws, I believe I have been clear on that before within this thread. Bess is a self admitted cop baiter, also not an illegal activity.

Both quotes are from THIS VERY FORUM within the last 2 months:

I record police interaction with the public whenever I can. Whether OC related or not. I have recieved a good amount of criticism from a few people in the Missouri forum.

I am not an exhibtionist, show off, or anything like that but I make it a point to stop at places that I see police at if I need to stop or at places that have "police substation" on there door.

Now if there is any questions regarding his intentions, I can't help you with that, it is pretty clear for the average reader, note, it remains legal activity.

Now, this activity while legal is indeed not particularly popular and irregardless of constitutionality, it motivates citizens to complain to those who make the laws and they ask them to make new laws to ban such activities. The spineless ones like the police chief in Washington are very willing to trample the Constitution in order to quiet the other spineless ones. Until a whole sale change out of the spineless, one is WISE to remember such things as they seek to initiate change.

The Washington police force was on record as very anti-OC even stating they would "make an arrest and let the prosecuting atty deal with it" which is ironically stupid, but clear, they were looking to make a political statement themselves. Wisdom said not to hand them the chance until we again had our rights restored at the state level. Bess was asked to avoid his cop baiting activities not because of legality, but because of potential political grandstanding, he ignored it, not illegal, and they took the bait. Apparently a few phone calls to the right people got phone calls as it was indeed stopped, but not until after the political grandstanding took place, also not illegal.

I understand the ignoring of the political climate and the anarchist claims, however, since we are trying to REVERSE an already constitutional questionable law paying attention to it to try and effect change is important, though ignoring it is not illegal.

Opinions may vary, but if you think handing your foes opportunities to capitalize on the popularity of a topic, you are misguided, that is EXACLTY how our system works regardless of legality.

Most of the rest of the comments within this entire thread are wanting at best.

 

[cshoff]

No, he is not retarded, he is engaging in a discussion expressing a rational concise point of view, it differing from others view does not make it retarded.

The point has been lost in this conversation and pretty much clears up the very reason the movement for OC in MO remains stagnant.

Bess has not been caught breaking any laws, I believe I have been clear on that before within this thread. Bess is a self admitted cop baiter, also not an illegal activity.

Both quotes are from THIS VERY FORUM within the last 2 months:




Now if there is any questions regarding his intentions, I can't help you with that, it is pretty clear for the average reader, note, it remains legal activity.

Now, this activity while legal is indeed not particularly popular and irregardless of constitutionality, it motivates citizens to complain to those who make the laws and they ask them to make new laws to ban such activities. The spineless ones like the police chief in Washington are very willing to trample the Constitution in order to quiet the other spineless ones. Until a whole sale change out of the spineless, one is WISE to remember such things as they seek to initiate change.

The Washington police force was on record as very anti-OC even stating they would "make an arrest and let the prosecuting atty deal with it" which is ironically stupid, but clear, they were looking to make a political statement themselves. Wisdom said not to hand them the chance until we again had our rights restored at the state level. Bess was asked to avoid his cop baiting activities not because of legality, but because of potential political grandstanding, he ignored it, not illegal, and they took the bait. Apparently a few phone calls to the right people got phone calls as it was indeed stopped, but not until after the political grandstanding took place, also not illegal.

I understand the ignoring of the political climate and the anarchist claims, however, since we are trying to REVERSE an already constitutional questionable law paying attention to it to try and effect change is important, though ignoring it is not illegal.

Opinions may vary, but if you think handing your foes opportunities to capitalize on the popularity of a topic, you are misguided, that is EXACLTY how our system works regardless of legality.

Most of the rest of the comments within this entire thread are wanting at best.

Which brings me back to the original point I made in this thread. There is ALWAYS a risk that someone openly carrying somewhere in this state could, at any given moment, find themselves the subject of/cause of some kind of "bad press". So the challenge becomes one of how this "movement" mobilizes/rallies/regroups so as to be able to overcome that. I know it's convenient to call the guy who is being talked about in the local newspaper a "moron" or "dumb ass", but the reality is, there is ALWAYS going to be one of "those guys" somewhere in this state. The efforts will either need to work in spite of any bad press, or the folks involved will just have to accept that they are letting the media control the narrative and it's a battle that can't be won.

 

[LMTD]

Which brings me back to the original point I made in this thread. There is ALWAYS a risk that someone openly carrying somewhere in this state could, at any given moment, find themselves the subject of/cause of some kind of "bad press". So the challenge becomes one of how this "movement" mobilizes/rallies/regroups so as to be able to overcome that. I know it's convenient to call the guy who is being talked about in the local newspaper a "moron" or "dumb ass", but the reality is, there is ALWAYS going to be one of "those guys" somewhere in this state. The efforts will either need to work in spite of any bad press, or the folks involved will just have to accept that they are letting the media control the narrative and it's a battle that can't be won.

This is correct sir, and while it may not be popular with you, we (marc, myself, and others involved in the political push) were discussing how to deal with such things a year ago. Bess was ASKED to curb the activities almost a year ago and AGREED, the person who asked him I believe was indeed Marc. Marc is expressing his disappointment in him failing to uphold that agreement.

It is what it is.

 

[afcarry]

Which brings me back to the original point I made in this thread. There is ALWAYS a risk that someone openly carrying somewhere in this state could, at any given moment, find themselves the subject of/cause of some kind of "bad press". So the challenge becomes one of how this "movement" mobilizes/rallies/regroups so as to be able to overcome that. I know it's convenient to call the guy who is being talked about in the local newspaper a "moron" or "dumb ass", but the reality is, there is ALWAYS going to be one of "those guys" somewhere in this state. The efforts will either need to work in spite of any bad press, or the folks involved will just have to accept that they are letting the media control the narrative and it's a battle that can't be won.

And the point we are trying to drive is that this someone had been asked kindly to behave a certain way - unselfishly for the good of a group's publicity - around a certain location for a specified amount of time. Nobody is questioning the legality, moral inclinations or whatever of that behavior. It is a simple matter of someone asked him to not do something very important, and he did it, getting attention drawn to himself and us. And as a result of THOSE actions, another municipality is banning OC. Damage done, regardless of perspective. There doesn't ALWAYS have to be one of "Those Guys" as you claim. If we all work together and have a unified direction with defined action, then this would be a lot easier. But, you can't fix stupid, and some people just can't play as a team, or let go of attention, or there pseudo-authority.

And I'll judge people all I want. It's my right and it's not illegal, so by your all's logic, you can't be upset with me about it. Stop playing Marine, bess.

 

[cshoff]

And the point we are trying to drive is that this someone had been asked kindly to behave a certain way - unselfishly for the good of a group's publicity - around a certain location for a specified amount of time. Nobody is questioning the legality, moral inclinations or whatever of that behavior. It is a simple matter of someone asked him to not do something very important, and he did it, getting attention drawn to himself and us. And as a result of THOSE actions, another municipality is banning OC. Damage done, regardless of perspective. There doesn't ALWAYS have to be one of "Those Guys" as you claim. If we all work together and have a unified direction with defined action, then this would be a lot easier. But, you can't fix stupid, and some people just can't play as a team, or let go of attention, or there pseudo-authority.

And I'll judge people all I want. It's my right and it's not illegal, so by your all's logic, you can't be upset with me about it. Stop playing Marine, bess.

There is nothing wrong with "kindly asking" (as I mentioned earlier in this thread). However, when you "kindly ask", you have to be prepared to hear either "yes" or "no", and you have to be willing to accept either, whether it fits your agenda or not. I'm willing to bet that not one of the people here who have criticized whatever it was that Mr. Bess did in Washington actually knows exactly what happened - and unless you were personally there, it would be impossible to know. Speculation and conjecture seem to be running rampant here.

And you can feel free to judge all you want, it makes no difference to me. For me, I'm personally not in the habit of making a bunch of snap judgements about a person when it involves situations that I have no first hand knowledge of - despite anything the guy did in the past.

And BTW - The City of Washington is NOT banning OC.

 

[cshoff]

This is correct sir, and while it may not be popular with you, we (marc, myself, and others involved in the political push) were discussing how to deal with such things a year ago. Bess was ASKED to curb the activities almost a year ago and AGREED, the person who asked him I believe was indeed Marc. Marc is expressing his disappointment in him failing to uphold that agreement.

It is what it is.

It is neither popular, nor unpopular, with me. It just is what it is. I've never even met Mr. Bess and have only had a minor amount of interaction with him on this forum. I have no interest in either defending or condemning him or his actions, especially when you consider how little first hand information ANY of us know about this particular situation.

My point here was a simple one, and one that (apparently) many are too obtuse to see. If the "battle" is going to be lost each time some anti-gun "journalist" (and I use that word loosely) writes some kind of "the sky is falling" hit piece about OC, then the "movement" is likely going to have a Bess or a Darrow to deal with each year - ESPECIALLY once these media people realize that they are controlling the narrative. And that "Bess" or "Darrow" could be ANY of you! If you OC in public AT ALL, you run the risk of having some kind of "bad" altercation with police that could lead to some kind of "bad press". So I have to wonder how open some of you would be to all the criticism, name calling, banishment from "the group", and being made a scapegoat if it was YOU who was on the hot seat. My guess is that you folks would be blaming the media, the police, and the local council rather than accepting any blame yourself (and perhaps rightfully so).

 

[ChiangShih]

Chiang - that's just the thing. No group or entity has claimed any kind of association with the individuals you have taken issue with. Likewise, those individuals haven't claimed any kind of association with any group or entity either. What has happened here is that a couple of individuals have acted on their own behalf and under their own free will. To say that some group has "facilitated" those actions is utter and complete BS, and you SHOULD be smart enough to know that.

A group that allows people that they know to have personality types like Bess and Darrow to continue showing up to meetings, etc. is facilitating IMO, but again my problem is not with the larger group. That was just a side note. My problem is with the individuals like Bess and Darrow and others in the larger OC community and on youtube that exhibit the same kind of traits and tactics.

The point that you continue to miss here is that NOBODY controls how these individuals act and how they go about lawfully exercising their rights -

I'm not missing that point at all. My initial response to this thread was condemning the actions of these individuals, not the failure of others to control them.

and nobody should be so brazen and hold themselves so high over everyone else that they would try.Whether you like it or not, as long as these folks aren't breaking the law, your opinion (and my opinion) and the opinion of anyone else, is entirely irrelevant. Page after page of crying, name calling, and finger pointing comes off as nothing more than sour grapes - and still, nothing is getting accomplished.

As I said, the KC side as a collective group has chosen to ask suspect individuals not to come back to meetings or openly associate with the larger movement. That is my suggestion to the STL side. Like it or not, legal or not, some people are out there OCing as a means to be disruptive, as a way to draw attention to themselves, as well as everything I've already listed.

That is the point of my name calling and bitching. I'm ok with being a sour grape. I'll continue name calling and bitching as long as I think there are individuals out there who need to know not everyone agrees (or will put up) with their BS.

Moreover, just because what Bess is doing is "technically" legal it is still very unpopular and seen as non-normative, this leads to public discontent, then bad PR, which then usually leads to interest aggregation, which leads to a bill or ordinance banning or restricting the activity. This is why simply accepting it because its legal is not the right course of action IMO.

 

[cshoff]

A group that allows people that they know to have personality types like Bess and Darrow to continue showing up to meetings, etc. is facilitating IMO, but again my problem is not with the larger group. That was just a side note. My problem is with the individuals like Bess and Darrow and others in the larger OC community and on youtube that exhibit the same kind of traits and tactics.


I'm not missing that point at all. My initial response to this thread was condemning the actions of these individuals, not the failure of others to control them.



As I said, the KC side as a collective group has chosen to ask suspect individuals not to come back to meetings or openly associate with the larger movement. That is my suggestion to the STL side. Like it or not, legal or not, some people are out there OCing as a means to be disruptive, as a way to draw attention to themselves, as well as everything I've already listed.

That is the point of my name calling and bitching. I'm ok with being a sour grape. I'll continue name calling and bitching as long as I think there are individuals out there who need to know not everyone agrees (or will put up) with their BS.

To my knowledge, there have been no official "group meetings" anywhere on this side of the state where a "blanket" invitation was sent out. The only "meetings" I've seen posted were unofficial gatherings at local restaurants where anyone was free to attend or not attend. In fact, there were a couple of rather large gatherings at a Washington restaurant over the past year as I recall, which is the same area that Mr. Bess was supposedly asked not to OC in sometime over the past year. Kinda ironic, don't you think?

So I'm not sure who was supposed to "kick this guy out" of "the group" or not "allow" him to attend these gatherings that took place at places that were open to the general public.

 

[OC for ME]

<snip> The Washington police force was on record as very anti-OC even stating they would "make an arrest and let the prosecuting atty deal with it" which is ironically stupid, but clear, they were looking to make a political statement themselves. <snip>

Well.....alrighty then.

If this is the case then Washington is a no OC zone, because the cops, who know that OC is legal because of the bad press, will manufacture bad press.

It appears that we will attempt to accomplish what the Washington City Council and cops could not accomplish.....to prevent bad press.

LMTD, do you have a link to the above? For my own selfish illumination.

 

[OC for ME]

<snip> So I'm not sure who was supposed to "kick this guy out" of "the group" or not "allow" him to attend these gatherings that took place at places that were open to the general public.

There in lies the problem for some folks.

The non-disruptive folks have not informed the disruptive folks to not frequent public establishments where non-disruptive folks may frequent while OCing.

I suggest a note attached to each 'Meet & Greet' invitation.

Meet and Greet at 'X' location, all are welcome except 'Y'. Mr. 'Y', your disruptive behavior is counterproductive and not welcome.

That should fix things.

 

[OC for ME]

Ya know what would be hi-larious, a offended OCer at 'X' calling the cops on another OCer. What will the cops do if that were to happen?

 

[zekester]

Which brings me back to the original point I made in this thread. There is ALWAYS a risk that someone openly carrying somewhere in this state could, at any given moment, find themselves the subject of/cause of some kind of "bad press". So the challenge becomes one of how this "movement" mobilizes/rallies/regroups so as to be able to overcome that. I know it's convenient to call the guy who is being talked about in the local newspaper a "moron" or "dumb ass", but the reality is, there is ALWAYS going to be one of "those guys" somewhere in this state. The efforts will either need to work in spite of any bad press, or the folks involved will just have to accept that they are letting the media control the narrative and it's a battle that can't be won.

I have to agree with this one. Anyone of us could have got caught up in some kind of "bad press" because we were not informed of the situation in Jeff City, or Washington.

Even here in St Charles, where it is not a issue at all, all it would take is one rookie cop mistake and BOOM!.....bad press!!

During this "cool off " time....any press is bad press, I don't care how you look at it!

All it would have have taken is a few PM's and I am sure the word would have got out.

Z

On a side note....Sorry DOC....it was just a show of respect, my friend..

 

[LMTD]

And that "Bess" or "Darrow" could be ANY of you! If you OC in public AT ALL, you run the risk of having some kind of "bad" altercation with police that could lead to some kind of "bad press". So I have to wonder how open some of you would be to all the criticism, name calling, banishment from "the group", and being made a scapegoat if it was YOU who was on the hot seat. My guess is that you folks would be blaming the media, the police, and the local council rather than accepting any blame yourself (and perhaps rightfully so).

Actually, I got quite a large amount of criticism for the 2-14 incident with the St. Peters police, two weeks before I testified at the house hearing for 1369. More than one person was unhappy about it.

 

[LMTD]

It appears that we will attempt to accomplish what the Washington City Council and cops could not accomplish.....to prevent bad press.

LMTD, do you have a link to the above? For my own selfish illumination.

Sir, I offer that is EXACTLY what 21.750 is designed to do, make it so difficult that people will not participate in a perfectly legal activity.

I have no link I can share, it is information from someone looking to put together an even there to rally support for Sen Nieves, that was when it became clear it was a political nightmare.