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Close encounter of the unlawful detainment kind...

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
argumentative
non-compliant
sovereign citizen
uncooperative
suspicious stance
suspicious glance
talked too much
talked too little
slouched
stood too upright
would not meet my eyes
stared defiantly

There's a whole list of words to choose from to ... shall we say, "flavor" a report with.
 

Ezek

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
411
Location
missouri
if informing your officer of the law and your rights and his lack of RAS is argumentative, then damn it, I sure as hell am. but frankly, the officer needs then to admit he ALSO was argumentative with the citizen as he thinks his badge exonerates him from any wrongdoing.

the standard problem with law enforcement IMO " I enforce the law, therefore, I am it, and above it." a little humbling from time to time I think would do them a lot of good.

also they improperly quoted the RSMO.
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Yesterday I spoke with Ms. Lana Woolsey, who had previously identified herself to me as the Assistant City Attorney for the Parks Department. I had not yet gotten a response/clear response to my records request of Friday, March 27, so I went through the three items on my list and tried to determine the answers.

You know, you can tell when a person doesn't want to answer a straightforward question because they start bobbing and weaving, directing questions elsewhere, claiming ignorance, etc. Bottom line, Ms. Woolsey did a masterful job of not answering my questions directly.

After minutes of unnecessary questions it became clear that A) it is her/her department that is responsible for keeping Park Rangers informed about how changes to Missouri law affect the enforcement of park rules/laws B) she was clueless about SB656/RSMo 21.750 prior to it being raised by BriKuz and myself, C) she feels that 21.750 is the only law which modifies the park rule, and D) **prior to BriKuz's stop, neither she nor her department had informed the Park Rangers of the effect of SB656 on the park rule**. Also, Amendment 5/the modified Article 1, Section 23 seems not to exist in Ms. Woolsey's world.

Throughout all of my communications with various parties there has been an unwillingness of some to respond promptly, clearly and accurately to records requests. Those parties have been 1) The City of Springfield, and 2) The Parks Department. I'm convinced that had I not contacted the press and turned them on to Brian, and had not the reporter written a story, the Parks Department would not have changed course.

Think about it - prior to my talking to Ms. Woolsey, she had had at least one conversation with Brian Kuzawa, and the Parks Director, City Council and Chief of Police had all been recipients of my communications, yet they didn't contact Brian or me before the reporter got in on things.

At the other end of the spectrum was the Sheriff's department - prompt, full, and complete responses, and even an apology when my request was misinterpreted. The difference has been simply stunning.

All that being the case, I think it's worthwhile to examine the structure and relationship of the Park Rangers to the City of Springfield and the Greene County Sheriff. My understanding is this: the Park Rangers work for the city, but are deputized by the Greene County Sheriff. I think part of the reason for this is that some of the parks are outside the city limits.

Now, if I were the Sheriff and I looked into how the aftermath of this incident was handled, including Ms. Woolsey's (and/not her department) cluelessness to widely known changes in Missouri's laws, I'd be more than a little concerned. Park Rangers, as I understand it, are instructed and empowered to enforce Springfield Municipal Ordinances on park properties, yet their police powers come not from the city, but from the Sheriff. So, when a problem comes up with an officer who is not properly trained or informed, I think it's reasonable for people to turn to the Sheriff and say "Why aren't these people who are deputized by you kept abreast of the legal environment surrounding the laws they're expected to enforce??"

Also, if I were the Sheriff, rather than counting on a demonstrably uninformed municipal lawyer, I'd seek out the counsel of the County Prosecutor and better yet, the Attorney General, on how Amendment 5/the revised Article 1, Section 23 interacts with I consider to be an unconstitutional law, MRSo 21.750, as amended by SB656, and consequently the Park rules: http://tinyurl.com/pveq6d3
 
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color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,950
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
argumentative
non-compliant
sovereign citizen
uncooperative
suspicious stance
suspicious glance
talked too much
talked too little
slouched
stood too upright
would not meet my eyes
stared defiantly

There's a whole list of words to choose from to ... shall we say, "flavor" a report with.
And one of their favorites: He took a "passive-aggressive" stance.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
outstanding BB, and your explanations of your game book to date and insight into the players has been exceptionally helpful.

thanks...

ipse
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Understand, the police are taught to use the word “argumentative” when a citizen stand on their rights.

If the police actually stated the truth of the interaction it would be glaringly apparent the cop had no grounds to enforce their fraudulent tactics.

I'm old enough to remember when cops were peace officers not law enforcement officers. And the definition of “law enforcement officer” is “tax collector.”
And we must teach ourselves to use "probative"...;)
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Over the past few days I communicated further with Ms. Woolsey. I confirmed that my earlier supposition was correct: prior to BriKuz's incident, she hadn't disseminated ANYTHING to the Park Rangers on the subjects of A5/A1, S23, open carry, or SB656/RSMo 21.750. She directed me to volumes of other information, which, since it had nothing to do with the municipal "no guns in parks" rule, was irrelevant.

Now here's the kicker: when responding to a separate records request on the training/directives/memos, etc. given to Park Rangers AFTER BriKuz's incident, she claimed attorney-client privilege!

In her own words: "...Finally, as discussed in our telephone conversation last Friday, while I have had communications with the Park Rangers regarding the update in the law as a result of the amendment to Section 21.750, I have re-reviewed these communications and they are closed records under Section 610.021(1) of Missouri’s Revised Statutes as attorney-client privileged and confidential communications.

We have no additional materials in our possession that would be responsive to your request
."

Here's my read of the situation: IF Ms. Woolsey told the officers "Enforce 21.750 as written!", why would she hide behind attorney-client privilege? My answer is "She wouldn't!". No, my take on the situation is that she's told the officers "Guys, going forward, I want you to leave open carriers alone unless you feel you can articulate a clear and present danger. Got it??" In this way, she and Springfield retain the intimidation factor of the park rule for the benefit of council members and various constituents of same. Note that A5/A1, S23 was not part of her communications.


At this point Mr. Kuzawa and the local citizens have a decision to make – allow Springfield to get away with shielding their training materials/directives, etc. from public scrutiny, speak to City Council about the law and the issue (fruitlessly, I imagine), or conduct an activity such as an “open carry” picnic to see how intransigent the city and the Park Rangers are to a change of position.

If asked I will help organize a picnic, done along the same lines as last October’s St. Louis Open Carry/Firearm Education Walk. Such an event would be yet another test of Amendment 5/Article 1, Section 23, but to repeat: as far as I'm concerned this ball is in the locals' court for now.
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
BB, et al., w/could a 'bump' conversation on this issue with directly the sheriff and the apparent lack of training and possible pecuniary liability to his dept from these individuals under his signatory auspices not being appropriately trained coupled with a commentary of the conversations you had w/Ms Woosley assist efforts? however, with minor leap of faith, of the opinion the lack of training is systemic throughout the LE community.

ipse
 
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BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
BB, et al., w/could a 'bump' conversation on this issue with directly the sheriff and the apparent lack of training and possible pecuniary liability to his dept from these individuals under his signatory auspices not being appropriately trained coupled with a commentary of the conversations you had w/Ms Woosley assist efforts?...
You mean, in plain English, "Would/could it be beneficial to bring the Sheriff into things, pointing out the poor training given and possible legal risk he/his deputies may face because of same?" If that's what you mean, just say so! :banghead:

To answer your question, I have at various points publicly copied the previously mentioned Major Corcoran, second in command of the GCSO, into my communications. There is no doubt in my mind that, given the professionalism demonstrated at every stage of this saga by he and the Sheriff, the Sheriff is well aware of what has transpired. The Sheriff could he take the issue on alone, if he chooses to, and I think it would be a great move, but...

I think that speaking to the Sheriff would be a good thing, AFTER the locals bring their dissatisfaction with the status quo to the attention of their local and state elected representatives - including the apparently silent Attorney General. The Sheriff shouldn't be the only official to feel heat.

If all else fails, then I think an OC picnic (or two or three) should be conducted in order to get various parties to "Put up or shut up!".
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
bb, so hope your written post's first paragraph of belittlement & disparaging comments about my previous post is completely out of your system and you are over yourself!

however, to my point, talking with a subordinate, Major, whom you just acknowledged in your last post was second in command, as it were, verses directly to the sheriff himself, about their thoughts on the matter isn't quite the same thing is it! he is after all still giving the sheriff complete deniable culpability to the whole situation isn't he?

ipse
 

BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
bb, so hope your written post's first paragraph of belittlement & disparaging comments about my previous post is completely out of your system and you are over yourself!...
Only for a very short time! ;)


...however, to my point, talking with a subordinate, Major, whom you just acknowledged in your last post was second in command, as it were, verses directly to the sheriff himself, about their thoughts on the matter isn't quite the same thing is it! he is after all still giving the sheriff complete deniable culpability to the whole situation isn't he?
I hear and respect what you're saying, but I'm quite content with my read on things, and with my suggestion for how to move things forward.
 
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