I kinda figured that but this is my virgin experience with LEOs.I think that all the questions after they checked to see that your gun was unloaded were extralegal and you could have refused to answer and any detention on that basis would have been unlawful.
This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
This is something that didn't register with me on the first read through-I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):
If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).
Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")
(Disclaimer: This is not legal advice.)
Until you hit them in the pocketbook their employees will continue to violate the rights of you and your fellow Americans. I feel it is your duty to yourself and the rest of us to pursue this civilly. Don't do it for the money; do it for your country.
OK, any ideas on a course of action? I have the name, phone and email address of the head guy that detained me. This sounds like fun!CA_Libertarian wrote:This is something that didn't register with me on the first read through-I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):
If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).
Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")
(Disclaimer: This is not legal advice.)
Until you hit them in the pocketbook their employees will continue to violate the rights of you and your fellow Americans. I feel it is your duty to yourself and the rest of us to pursue this civilly. Don't do it for the money; do it for your country.
On subsequent police encounters I plan to play it cool and assert my right to remain silent, responding only by questioning officers as to the status of my detainment- but had not considered private security guards attempting to hold me until police arrived. I dont believe private security guards would be as well versed on what they can and can't do and could open a property owner up to some civil liability if they chose to stop someone from leaving or going about their buisness. Things only get worse if they elect to put their hands on someone.
You should speak or write a letter/e-mail to the owner or management company of the mall. Copy the security head in, but direct it towards the owner. You might ask for copies of the policies regarding detaining of "suspects", why you were detained, and for what crime. Does the mall have any policies against carry?OK, any ideas on a course of action? I have the name, phone and email address of the head guy that detained me. This sounds like fun!
Careful with that one. Some security guards, often ones with firearms, also have arrest powers from CA BSISpullnshoot25 wrote:This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):
If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).
Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")
...
Unless they were concealed, these guys didn't have firearms. These are run-of-the-mill rent-a-cops.CA_Libertarian wrote:Careful with that one. Some security guards, often ones with firearms, also have arrest powers from CA BSISpullnshoot25 wrote:This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):
If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).
Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")
...
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/industries_regulated/ppo.shtml
Wrong. BSIS does not give arrest powers. They issue:CA_Libertarian wrote:Careful with that one. Some security guards, often ones with firearms, also have arrest powers from CA BSISpullnshoot25 wrote:This has not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge. I'd give it a 50/50 chance pre-incorporation. Once we have Heller incorporated, I'd bump that up to 95% (though it may take appeals up to the circuit court to do it). It seems that this is standard procedure for most LE agencies, despite it being a violation of our Constitutionally protection against unreasonable search/seizure.Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
I am curious about your encounter with the mall security. Did they tell you that they were making a citizens arrest and what crime you had committed? It is possible you have civil grounds for false arrest. As a former 'rent-a-cop' I can tell you that there are very strict rules about confronting a person. Let me summarize my years of training (which I presume has not been changed in the past 5 years since I quit the industry):
If a reasonable person would believe that the subject is not free to leave, it is an arrest equivalent to placing cuffs on the subject (e.g. surround a subject and telling them to keep their hands where they can be seen and not make any sudden movements).
Security guards have no powers of arrest above the powers granted to all people: the citizen's arrest. When making a citizen's arrest, the citizen must declare that an arrest is being made and for what crime the arrest is warrented. This must be done BEFORE you take away the subject's freedom to leave (by cuffing/surrounding/ordering). If you fail to do this, you are likely committing battery and false arrest - EVEN IF THE PERSON IS GUILTY OF A CRIME. (One obvious exception to this would be if you are trying to prevent an immediate, grave danger to yourself or others. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to assault/batter/etc a guy trying to stab you without first declaring "You're under citizen's arrest for assault with a deadly weapon.")
...
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/industries_regulated/ppo.shtml
A security guard’s power to arrest is the same as any other private person’s
Well, if they see the serial number incident to the check of load condition, I think they can use the number as they like - but, I see no lawful basis to make you wait around or give eprsonal information. This is an issue we need to start researching and perhaps remind the police leaderships about.Mike wrote:I kinda figured that but this is my virgin experience with LEOs.I think that all the questions after they checked to see that your gun was unloaded were extralegal and you could have refused to answer and any detention on that basis would have been unlawful.
Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.
Look up Arizona vs Hicks USSC decision.Mike wrote:I kinda figured that but this is my virgin experience with LEOs.I think that all the questions after they checked to see that your gun was unloaded were extralegal and you could have refused to answer and any detention on that basis would have been unlawful.
Are they allowed to run my background check on my gun and all that stuff? I assume not.