COSTCO Open Carry

[BMXpapa]

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Can I ask a dumb question, which I am sure is going to generate a whole rash of crap.

Again,,I am with all of you on the being able to Open Carry. So while you are letting me have it,,,please keep that in mind.

But everyone has a perception of good and bad. And I would like to have totally honest answers, not politically correct ones. And to further carry this, I am of non caucasion ethnicity, and I will not be offended,,,other may be, but I won't.

But can I ask, Since it is being said that it is a RIGHT to Open Carry, who here is comfortable with:

1. The Los Angeles, South SLC, West Valley etc, type of gang banger having his "GAT" strapped to his person in open. Whether he be Black, Hispanic, South Pacific, White Supremist, Asian (Chinese, Vienamese, etc)

2. Persons of Middle Eastern decent....

ETC ETC ETC. As long as they haven't been convicted of a felony,,,

Because lets face it,,,,we all carry our weapons for protection and the possibility of threat. And human nature being what it is....And Current world events...

Who out there feels that that Brutha standing on the corner at nite should be carrying his piece...

Who out there feels that that wetback walking downredwood in taylorsville should be carrying his gun out in the open....

Who out there feels that the towel head should have a gun at all....

Should that cracker with the swastika tatooed on his chest have a 45 on his hip....

And How comfortable are people shopping in Trolley Square when they see someone carrying a gun....Specially the relatives if victims, if they ever step foot in there again....

I ask these things, because being someone of ethnic background, I have subjected to these same questions,,,by Cops, by everyday people.

So I am curious, if the right to OC applies equally...

Because as I have said before,,,perception is reality for a lot of people...

 

[Kevin Jensen]

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BMXpapa wrote:

And, as a favor to me, can some one show me where to find the actual law and conditions of what Open Carry is. I would like to be educated as to, the legal conditions of legal open carry. ie: loaded, unloaded, w or w/o magazine, cocked/uncocked, etc.

There is no "actual law" for open carry, only the lack thereof. That bieng said, here is one you need to know.

[font="<!--"] 76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle;
(b) on any public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

So what is a loaded weapon? Here it is.
[/font][font="<!--"]
76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders. [/font]
[font="<!--"]
[/font]

And for those who said OC is legal and Concealed carry is illegal,,,,Come on,,,lets not get into a battle of semmantics. Getting a Concealed carrry permit to be legal is no different than getting a driver's license to be a legal driver.

Find a law for me that says that open carry is a violation of the law. Here is the law that states that concealment is the crime.

[font="<!--"] 76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
(b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
(2) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
(3) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
(4) Nothing in Subsection (1) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
(a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
(b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102. [/font]

 

[swillden]

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BMXpapa wrote:

And, as a favor to me, can some one show me where to find the actual law and conditions of what Open Carry is. I would like to be educated as to, the legal conditions of legal open carry. ie: loaded, unloaded, w or w/o magazine, cocked/uncocked, etc.

Sure thing.

See Title 76, Chapter 10 of the Utah code.

76-10-504 says it's illegal to carry concealed weapon, unless you have a permit.

76-10-505 says it's illegal to carry a loaded weapon on the street or in a vehicle. However, Utah has a somewhat unusual definition of "loaded", which is defined in 76-10-502. Also, 76-10-523 says that none of this applies to CFP holders -- it is not illegal for CFP holders to carry a loaded weapon on the street or in a vehicle.

So, without a permit, nothing in the law prohibits you from openly carrying a Utah-unloaded weapon, but you can't conceal it. Having a permit exempts you from the concealment and loading restrictions. Nothing in the law specifies a duty to conceal, regardless of what the University of Utah would like to believe.

BMXpapa wrote:

And as for the last response regarding Costco and state law. Yes Costco abides by state law, but Costco and retailers, restaurants, movie theaters, and such do have the right to restrict and prohibit weapons from their properties.

Incorrect.

Utah state law gives owners of private residences and churches the right to prohibit weapons from their properties (76-10-530), and it specifies that certain secure facilities are off-limits (726-10-523.5). No one else has any authorization to prohibit weapons under the law. There is nothing providing this power to non-governmental organizations and 726-10-500 specifically prohibits counties and municipalities from making firearm laws (except where specifically authorized by the legislature).

However, private property owners do have the right to eject people for just about any reason, so if COSTCO sees you carrying a gun (openly or just poorly-concealed), they can ask you to leave. If you don't, you're trespassing. COSTCO has another option as well that most retailers don't: you sign a contract when you obtain your membership. That contract may have some punitive clauses for disobeying their rules. I haven't read it, but I expect that at the very least they can terminate your membership.

Legally, however, COSTCO can do nothing to you beyond enforce the terms of the contract you signed, and ask you to leave.

BMXpapa wrote:

Maybe you should contact local law enforcement and get a clerification for yourself.

Bad idea. Law enforcement is a notoriously bad source of information on the law. If you really want to understand this stuff, ask an attorney. Utah attorney Mitch Vilos has a book out on Utah gun laws that explains everything quite well. You can pick up a copy at most gun stores.

 

[Kevin Jensen]

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BMXpapa wrote:

Can I ask a dumb question, which I am sure is going to generate a whole rash of crap.

Yes, and it will.

Again,,I am with all of you on the being able to Open Carry. So while you are letting me have it,,,please keep that in mind.

But everyone has a perception of good and bad. And I would like to have totally honest answers, not politically correct ones. And to further carry this, I am of non caucasion ethnicity, and I will not be offended,,,other may be, but I won't.

But can I ask, Since it is being said that it is a RIGHT to Open Carry, who here is comfortable with:

1. The Los Angeles, South SLC, West Valley etc, type of gang banger having his "GAT" strapped to his person in open. Whether he be Black, Hispanic, South Pacific, White Supremist, Asian (Chinese, Vienamese, etc)

I am.

2. Persons of Middle Eastern decent....

No problem there.

ETC ETC ETC. As long as they haven't been convicted of a felony,,,

I like non felons.

Because lets face it,,,,we all carry our weapons for protection and the possibility of threat. And human nature being what it is....And Current world events...

Who out there feels that that Brutha standing on the corner at nite should be carrying his piece...

My "brother" carries a "piece".

Who out there feels that that wetback walking downredwood in taylorsville should be carrying his gun out in the open....

Are we racist now?

Who out there feels that the towel head should have a gun at all....

Me.

Should that cracker with the swastika tatooed on his chest have a 45 on his hip....

If he wants to.

And How comfortable are people shopping in Trolley Square when they see someone carrying a gun....Specially the relatives if victims, if they ever step foot in there again....

I don't carry to make others comfortable. I carry to comfort myself.

I ask these things, because being someone of ethnic background, I have subjected to these same questions,,,by Cops, by everyday people.

Good for you.

So I am curious, if the right to OC applies equally...

It does.

Because as I have said before,,,perception is reality for a lot of people...

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

 

[BMXpapa]

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19Thannk You very much for your reply,

But, can you put that in plain english for me...I have read the "Law" as stted and written....

I do possess a carry conceal,,,so I realize things are somewhat different, but..

Does that mean I can carry my sidearm, in the open, with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber.....Or does the chamber have to be empty,,,

What state does the firearm have to be in to be carried legally in the open...I carry a SW M&P or a SW 1911 (cocked and locked)



Thanks

 

[swillden]

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BMXpapa wrote:

But can I ask, Since it is being said that it is a RIGHT to Open Carry, who here is comfortable with:

1. The Los Angeles, South SLC, West Valley etc, type of gang banger having his "GAT" strapped to his person in open. Whether he be Black, Hispanic, South Pacific, White Supremist, Asian (Chinese, Vienamese, etc)

2. Persons of Middle Eastern decent....

ETC ETC ETC. As long as they haven't been convicted of a felony,,,

I have absolutely no problem with it. People with evil intent hide their guns. I'm more worried about, for example, the gang banger with many layers of loose clothing that could hide a weapon than one whose weapon is openly displayed.

 

[Gray Peterson]

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What state, BMX? I'm assuming you're in Utah. You can carry loaded with your CFP in Utah.

 

[UTOC-45-44]

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BMXpapa wrote:

Can I ask a dumb question, which I am sure is going to generate a whole rash of crap.

Again,,I am with all of you on the being able to Open Carry. So while you are letting me have it,,,please keep that in mind.

But everyone has a perception of good and bad. And I would like to have totally honest answers, not politically correct ones. And to further carry this, I am of non caucasion ethnicity, and I will not be offended,,,other may be, but I won't.

But can I ask, Since it is being said that it is a RIGHT to Open Carry, who here is comfortable with:

1. The Los Angeles, South SLC, West Valley etc, type of gang banger having his "GAT" strapped to his person in open. Whether he be Black, Hispanic, South Pacific, White Supremist, Asian (Chinese, Vienamese, etc)

2. Persons of Middle Eastern decent....

ETC ETC ETC. As long as they haven't been convicted of a felony,,,

Because lets face it,,,,we all carry our weapons for protection and the possibility of threat. And human nature being what it is....And Current world events...

Who out there feels that that Brutha standing on the corner at nite should be carrying his piece...

Who out there feels that that wetback walking downredwood in taylorsville should be carrying his gun out in the open....

Who out there feels that the towel head should have a gun at all....

Should that cracker with the swastika tatooed on his chest have a 45 on his hip....

And How comfortable are people shopping in Trolley Square when they see someone carrying a gun....Specially the relatives if victims, if they ever step foot in there again....

I ask these things, because being someone of ethnic background, I have subjected to these same questions,,,by Cops, by everyday people.

So I am curious, if the right to OC applies equally...

Because as I have said before,,,perception is reality for a lot of people...

I really don't carry what a person looks like, wether that is color of the skin or how they dress. I just feel that their behavior is the most important. How they carry themselves. That's what would "alarm" me.

TJ

 

[swillden]

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BMXpapa wrote:

19Thannk You very much for your reply,

But, can you put that in plain english for me...I have read the "Law" as stted and written....

I do possess a carry conceal,,,so I realize things are somewhat different, but..

Does that mean I can carry my sidearm, in the open, with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber.....Or does the chamber have to be empty,,,

What state does the firearm have to be in to be carried legally in the open...I carry a SW M&P or a SW 1911 (cocked and locked)

As a CFP holder you can carry any way you want, and anywhere you want (with the exception of churches and private residences that say no, and secure facilities, e.g. sterile area of airport).

As for how your firearm has to be, as a CFP holder you're expected to be able to make responsible decisions about that.

 

[BMXpapa]

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No, Not a Racist,,,,just asking, because in many conversations with people,,I have heard the,,,,yeah,,I'm ok with so and so having a gun,,but not that person....And it is usually based on race....So I ask,,,,And I appreciate your response. My son is totally inked from the neck down,,,and he is always being descriminated against because of the perception of what he looks like,,,,And I just recently sent him my XD40,,,and he's been well received by Washinton PD/Sheriff's for his CCW,,,but people at the ranges and other places have given him hard times,,,remarks and looks. So I ask....

Thanks....

 

[BMXpapa]

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I reside in the great beautiful state of UTAH,,,,however, unfortunately an ex Californian.....And I appreciate everyones responses,,,,It nice to know that people somewhere sometime still view people for what they are and not what they look like...

I am a person who likes to question and get people's honest views,,,,I respect peoples views and opinions.

 

[UTOC-45-44]

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BMXpapa wrote:

No, Not a Racist,,,,just asking, because in many conversations with people,,I have heard the,,,,yeah,,I'm ok with so and so having a gun,,but not that person....And it is usually based on race....So I ask,,,,And I appreciate your response. My son is totally inked from the neck down,,,and he is always being descriminated against because of the perception of what he looks like,,,,And I just recently sent him my XD40,,,and he's been well received by Washinton PD/Sheriff's for his CCW,,,but people at the ranges and other places have given him hard times,,,remarks and looks. So I ask....

Thanks....

Your welcome.

I believe we should treat a "toter" the same as a "non-toter". I mean when a "regular" person is behaving "alarming" we call the PD depending on how bad it is. I believe that's the way a "toter" should be treated as well.

I believe in general we are both on the same page.

TJ

 

[swillden]

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Oh, I missed this part:

BMXpapa wrote:

saw a gentleman carrying a Sig 229 in a tac rig, spare mags, tac light,,,OD pants, black t-shirt, black hat and tac boots. ... And I believe the Officer's response was, He was also exercising his right to STUPIDITY. He also informed him that had the incident escalated, and the gentleman been forced to defend himself and family with his weapon, that he may have been held responsible for insighting and if a discharge and injury or death occurred, it would not have been viewed as self defense, and that the locals may also have had the right to feel that they acted in self defense as they felt there was a threat.

The fault would lie with whoever threatened or used force first. Having a gun resting in a holster, hand not on it, no threatening words or gestures, is not a threat.

Now, the guy might have had trouble because it would have ended up as his word against theirs as to who actually did start it, and that's an issue he should probably have considered. Many OCers carry recording devices to help avoid that situation.

Oh, and BTW, the word you were looking for is "incite", not "insight". Usually I don't care so much about spelling, but this case actually confused me momentarily.

 

[BMXpapa]

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LOL,,thanx for the spelling correction,,,its well past my bed time,,,,,

And I am only stating what the Cop told the OC'er....He was not a ahppy camper....

 

[BobCav]

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Sounds like you're getting a lot of answers. As you can tell, we're a passionate group and the forum isn't heavily moderated and free speech is awesome! (we do have some rules though...)

Keep in mind that we hearpeople ask and demand to know "What law says you can Open Carry?" The response is that the wonderful thing about America is thatlaws only define punishments for illegal activities, that is they tell you what you shouldn't do. So basically, if there is nolaw specifically against Open Carry, it's legal! We even have many states, courts, and DA's opinions stating specifically that not only is OC legal, but it is not grounds for beig stopped for suspicion of anything in and of itself.

Stick around, there's lots to learn!

 

[BMXpapa]

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I love it,,,,nothing like great conversation, information and passion,,,Specially ina time when as I have heard it put,,,We are a country being killed by Political correctness....

Thanks

 

[OneShot]

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BMXpapa,

I live in Delaware. Our state laws prohibit concealed carry without a license. I do not have a license, so I can only open carry.

Laws are written toplace restrictionson something. If there is no law against it, it is legal to do. Hard for a lot of people to understand (I speak from my own perspective). Before I was given the knowledge found on this site, I believed it was not legal to walk around with a gun on your hip in public. Wow! Imagine how many other people are out there thinking the same thing. I am soooo happy that I can carry a gun for protection. I needed an eye opener and I believe a large number of people out there need the same thing. If we are all aware that OC is legal, you'd find a lot more of us out there.

I personally feel it makes me less of a target for crime (whether it does or not). I believe that most criminals look to pray on someone who is less likely to be able to defend him/herself. Most crimes are not committed in the presence of a uniformed officer. There's a reason for that. I don't think it's because he or she may have good communication skills at getting the criminal to rethink the consequences. It's the GUN on his/her hip.

I'm in the process of getting a concealed carry permit. One reason, for me, is there are some places I may not want to open carry, so I'll be able to conceal it legally. Another reason is so I can open carry without worrying of being harrassed by LEO's and possible detention by LEO's, who are not aware of the law, when I have somewhere I need to be.

As far as gang bangers go...First, I believe (although not 100% sure) it is illegal to be in a gang, but I'm not sure of the crime (misdemeanor or felony). Second, gangbangers, skin-heads, etc. do not want to draw police attention to themselves, so you won't see them hanging out with a handgun on there hip in plain view. If they are up to no good, they will be illegally concealing it.

My $.02

 

[utbagpiper]

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BMXpapa wrote:

Wow,,,nice to know that one person can insight so much from so many.Nice to know that freedom of speech is not the issue here.

And, as a favor to me, can some one show me where to find the actual law and conditions of what Open Carry is. I would like to be educated as to, the legal conditions of legal open carry. ie: loaded, unloaded, w or w/o magazine, cocked/uncocked, etc.

BMXpapa,

It is proper etiquette to introduce yourself so we know who we're visiting with. Do you intend to do so? Or will you continue to hide behind any anonymous moniker? And if the latter, why should we give ANY credence to what you have to say? For all we know you are Steve Gunn from the local Brady Bunch or some WVC or Sandy city cop who thinks only the police should have guns in public or someone else just trying to stir up trouble here.

As for "freedom of speech," better double check what that really means. While the owner and moderator of this forum graciously provide a place to exchange information, they are perfectly within THEIR RIGHTS to limit what is posted here. The 1st amendment is a limit on GOVERNMENT, NOT private property owners. Hence the mouth breathers protesting outside LDS General conference have to remain on government/public property and off of privately owned church property.

I note the owners/moderators have not squelched your posts here so in your case and others responding to you, even with vigorous disagreement, is NOT any kind of limit on your freedom of speech.

And, don't you think it a bit presumptuous to come here, not introduce yourself, and start telling us how and when to carry and yet you don't even know what Utah law is on the matter? Shouldn't you make sure you KNOW the law before climbing up on that high horse of yours and telling the rest of us how to live our lives?

There is no definition in Utah of "open carry." There is a definition of what a concealed weapon is, and various laws against carrying such a weapon without a permit. I suggest you read up on 76-10-5xx, a chapter of code that ANY Utah certified weapons permit instructor should have covered during the class when you got your permit. You DO have a concealed weapons permit, don't you? If so, I'd like the name of your instructor so I can pass it along to BCI to investigate his shoddy teaching practices for not covering such basic material with you.

Finally, I'd be very interested in a few more details of this allleged incident in West Valley: date, time, etc so that we can get some independent verification of the incident.

What EXACTLY do YOU think the alleged person OCing did wrong? Being white in an ethnic neighborhood? Having his wife and kids with him on foot in such a neighborhood? Being armed? Dressing similarly to a police officer? What exactly did he do that made himself a target? And does having a legal gun, properly holstered, amount to insighting ANYONE?

Charles Hardy
Public Policy Director
GOUtah!

 

[Decoligny]

imported post

BMXpapa wrote:

Can I ask a dumb question, which I am sure is going to generate a whole rash of crap.

Again,,I am with all of you on the being able to Open Carry. So while you are letting me have it,,,please keep that in mind.

But everyone has a perception of good and bad. And I would like to have totally honest answers, not politically correct ones. And to further carry this, I am of non caucasion ethnicity, and I will not be offended,,,other may be, but I won't.

But can I ask, Since it is being said that it is a RIGHT to Open Carry, who here is comfortable with:

1. The Los Angeles, South SLC, West Valley etc, type of gang banger having his "GAT" strapped to his person in open. Whether he be Black, Hispanic, South Pacific, White Supremist, Asian (Chinese, Vienamese, etc)

2. Persons of Middle Eastern decent....

ETC ETC ETC. As long as they haven't been convicted of a felony,,,

Because lets face it,,,,we all carry our weapons for protection and the possibility of threat. And human nature being what it is....And Current world events...

Who out there feels that that Brutha standing on the corner at nite should be carrying his piece...

Who out there feels that that wetback walking downredwood in taylorsville should be carrying his gun out in the open....

Who out there feels that the towel head should have a gun at all....

Should that cracker with the swastika tatooed on his chest have a 45 on his hip....

And How comfortable are people shopping in Trolley Square when they see someone carrying a gun....Specially the relatives if victims, if they ever step foot in there again....

I ask these things, because being someone of ethnic background, I have subjected to these same questions,,,by Cops, by everyday people.

So I am curious, if the right to OC applies equally...

Because as I have said before,,,perception is reality for a lot of people...

WOW, you jump all over me for using WTF, and then come out with a string of offensive racial epithats. My mild use (acronym form) of vulgarity may have offended one or two individuals, but it was used to stress a point.

Your use of the terms "brutha" "wetback" "towelhead" and "cracker" is designed to offend almost every ethnicity there is. You left out the derogatory terms for Asians and Native Americans, but you must have been rushed to get your rant posted.

The derogatory term "wetback" is usually reserved for illegal immigrants, so yes I would not want an illegal immigrant carrying a firearm.

If an individual is not commiting a crime, then I have no problem with anyone regardless of who they are carrying a weapon openly.

 

[utbagpiper]

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BMXpapa wrote:

But can I ask, Since it is being said that it is a RIGHT to Open Carry, who here is comfortable with:

1. The Los Angeles, South SLC, West Valley etc, type of gang banger having his "GAT" strapped to his person in open. Whether he be Black, Hispanic, South Pacific, White Supremist, Asian (Chinese, Vienamese, etc)

2. Persons of Middle Eastern decent....

ETC ETC ETC. As long as they haven't been convicted of a felony,,,

Because lets face it,,,,we all carry our weapons for protection and the possibility of threat. And human nature being what it is....And Current world events...

Who out there feels that that Brutha standing on the corner at nite should be carrying his piece...

Who out there feels that that wetback walking downredwood in taylorsville should be carrying his gun out in the open....

Who out there feels that the towel head should have a gun at all....

Should that cracker with the swastika tatooed on his chest have a 45 on his hip....

And How comfortable are people shopping in Trolley Square when they see someone carrying a gun....Specially the relatives if victims, if they ever step foot in there again....

I ask these things, because being someone of ethnic background, I have subjected to these same questions,,,by Cops, by everyday people.

So I am curious, if the right to OC applies equally...

Because as I have said before,,,perception is reality for a lot of people...

So THAT is what this is all about?!?! You've felt like you've been subjected to some unfair scrutiny and so now nobody should open carry?

Let me very clear, you'll find VERY LITTLE tolerance for racism or discrimination here. As in virtually NONE.

For the record: I have NO PROBLEM with responsible, law abiding persons owing AND peacably carrying firearms. I will assume that persons are responsible and law abiding until they give me some indication to the contrary.

Skin color is NOT such an indication.

Manner and mode of dress, language, comportment, and how they conduct themselves ARE possible indications. How they drive may well be such an indicator. Whether they are polite, or boisterous may well be possible indicators.

If someone is dressed like a gang banger and loitering around public in the middle of the night, I'd just as soon he get questioned REGARDLESS of whether he has a visible weapon.

And if I could magically persuade criminals, malcontents, and general trouble makers to carry their weapons openly rather than concealed, I'd do so. It would make it easier for me to avoid them and the cops to pick them up.

Now, make an effort to learn and understand the community you've just joined (OCDO) BEFORE presuming to impose your views on it.

Charles